283 réponses à ce sujet

[jla0644]

Bill Casey wrote...

IT is the most brilliant twist I've ever seen for anything... ever...

Bioware has literally indoctrinated people and have them fighting eachother instead of fighting the reapers...

It saddens me that people actually believe this. If it wouldn't come off as condescending and rude, I'd make a poll asking the age of people who subscribe to this point of view.

To answer the question posed in the OP, my reaction would be:

"YGTBFKM, they actually found a way to make the ending worse."

Modifié par jla0644, 04 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[cogsandcurls]

Jubilation, but largely dependant on what exactly happened after Shep "woke up". If it was poorly implemented and was just a two-minute cutscene tacked on the end, I'd be okay with it as a patchy kind of fix but I don't think it would be the send-off Mass Effect deserved.

If IT lead to "Priority: Earth Part 2: The Bit Where All The Exciting Stuff Happens (Including Squadmate Actions, Assets in Action and Harbinger Confrontation)"? Nothing would be more wonderful to me. I would metaphorically party in the street.

Modifié par cogsandcurls, 04 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[davishepard]

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you are basically telling a lie. We're talking about an interpretation of a story, not a story made up. You are being intellectually dishonest and you do your side of the aisle no favors by doing so. In fact, it makes it seem as if you haven't even graduated elementary school.

We're talking about a fiction created by distorting what is presented in the game and assigning ocult meanings to almost every part of the said game. I don't care what it makes I seem, and I don't understand why you care. Care to cut down the ad hominem and restrain yourself to discuss only the fan fiction called IT, or you can't do it?

[Hackulator]

I'd be pretty disappointed in Bioware for caving like that.

[Bill Casey]

jla0644 wrote...

It saddens me that people actually believe this. If it wouldn't come off as condescending and rude, I'd make a poll asking the age of people who subscribe to this point of view.

Thirty...

[Erield]

BatmanTurian wrote...

For the last f@#$%ing time, Erield, It would not be the " All a Dream"  trope. It's A Battle at the Center of the Mind.
I've posted this once and two posters have reposted it twice. Stop calling it something it isn't.

The Link BatmanTurian posted states in part that...

What the possessing force wants is either a full Split Personality Takeover, or (if external) to maintain control.
Opposing this force is usually the "host" or person that is being affected. Occasionally, their mind is too weak and addled to oppose the invader, so a friendly telepath or mystic will insert an ally or two to try and rout the bad guy. They will fail. However, the act of them trying and yelling "I know you are in there somewhere!" and going in to save them from the evil presence in their mind is usually enough to get the host to kick their unwanted guest out of their mind if not completely obliterate it when it threatens their friends. The thing is, no matter how powerful the invader, it can't beat a determined victim's home field brain advantage.

For those on the outside, it's usually obvious that the character is Fighting From The Inside 

Nothing Shepard is capable of doing is truly indicative of kicking the Reapers out of his head.  Even picking Destroy is choosing an option laid out by the Star Child, not one that Shepard demanded.  The only "battle" that happens is Shepard vs. TIM.  Everything else is solely Shepard blithely following along, never questioning, never arguing, just accepting.

At no point is it obvious, evident, etc. that Shepard is fighting from the inside.  Even using all knowledge of what happens before and after, it is, at most, assumed--after taking a few leaps of logic and ignoring other evidence.  (For instance, the Normandy crash-landing on the same planet in every ending.  The epilogue with the Stargazer in every ending.  The same basic effects of the Crucible beam in every ending.)

Compare to tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream

Selections from the same website, but this time It's All Just A Dream

Sometimes, the character awakes after the dream, sighs with relief, and then sees an artifact lying next to him that was in the dream. This usually will leave protagonist and audience wondering "Or Was It a Dream?".

Often, when the dreamer awakens, the really epic events (death of a major character, etc.) from the "dream season" will be reversed. Or maybe the "waking up" is the dream?

Please, tell me again how Hallucination IT doesn't fit the "It's all just a dream" trope.

[BatmanTurian]

davishepard wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you are basically telling a lie. We're talking about an interpretation of a story, not a story made up. You are being intellectually dishonest and you do your side of the aisle no favors by doing so. In fact, it makes it seem as if you haven't even graduated elementary school.

We're talking about a fiction created by distorting what is presented in the game and assigning ocult meanings to almost every part of the said game. I don't care what it makes I seem, and I don't understand why you care. Care to cut down the ad hominem and restrain yourself to discuss only the fan fiction called IT, or you can't do it?

By calling a literary interpretation of an art medium a fan fiction, you are already using ad hominem, so you actually began this little ad hominem dance. I'll continue to call you an idiot who probably flunked every arts class he ever took because he didn't pay attention when the teacher or professor taught him how to look for hidden meanings in stories. These hidden meanings have existed since the earliest stories, like Beowulf and Gilgamesh. This is basic stuff. To call it fan fiction is an insult to the history of the arts of human civilization all the way back to cave paintings. And again, it makes you look like an ignorant fool.

[Hackulator]

BatmanTurian wrote...

davishepard wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you are basically telling a lie. We're talking about an interpretation of a story, not a story made up. You are being intellectually dishonest and you do your side of the aisle no favors by doing so. In fact, it makes it seem as if you haven't even graduated elementary school.

We're talking about a fiction created by distorting what is presented in the game and assigning ocult meanings to almost every part of the said game. I don't care what it makes I seem, and I don't understand why you care. Care to cut down the ad hominem and restrain yourself to discuss only the fan fiction called IT, or you can't do it?

By calling a literary interpretation of an art medium a fan fiction, you are already using ad hominem, so you actually began this little ad hominem dance. I'll continue to call you an idiot who probably flunked every arts class he ever took because he didn't pay attention when the teacher or professor taught him how to look for hidden meanings in stories. These hidden meanings have existed since the earliest stories, like Beowulf and Gilgamesh. This is basic stuff. To call it fan fiction is an insult to the history of the arts of human civilization all the way back to cave paintings. And again, it makes you look like an ignorant fool.

YOUR CASES, YOU ARE VIOLENTLY OVERSTATING THEM

[BatmanTurian]

Erield wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

For the last f@#$%ing time, Erield, It would not be the " All a Dream"  trope. It's A Battle at the Center of the Mind.
I've posted this once and two posters have reposted it twice. Stop calling it something it isn't.

The Link BatmanTurian posted states in part that...

What the possessing force wants is either a full Split Personality Takeover, or (if external) to maintain control.
Opposing this force is usually the "host" or person that is being affected. Occasionally, their mind is too weak and addled to oppose the invader, so a friendly telepath or mystic will insert an ally or two to try and rout the bad guy. They will fail. However, the act of them trying and yelling "I know you are in there somewhere!" and going in to save them from the evil presence in their mind is usually enough to get the host to kick their unwanted guest out of their mind if not completely obliterate it when it threatens their friends. The thing is, no matter how powerful the invader, it can't beat a determined victim's home field brain advantage.

For those on the outside, it's usually obvious that the character is Fighting From The Inside 

Nothing Shepard is capable of doing is truly indicative of kicking the Reapers out of his head.  Even picking Destroy is choosing an option laid out by the Star Child, not one that Shepard demanded.  The only "battle" that happens is Shepard vs. TIM.  Everything else is solely Shepard blithely following along, never questioning, never arguing, just accepting.

At no point is it obvious, evident, etc. that Shepard is fighting from the inside.  Even using all knowledge of what happens before and after, it is, at most, assumed--after taking a few leaps of logic and ignoring other evidence.  (For instance, the Normandy crash-landing on the same planet in every ending.  The epilogue with the Stargazer in every ending.  The same basic effects of the Crucible beam in every ending.)

Compare to tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream

Selections from the same website, but this time It's All Just A Dream

Sometimes, the character awakes after the dream, sighs with relief, and then sees an artifact lying next to him that was in the dream. This usually will leave protagonist and audience wondering "Or Was It a Dream?".

Often, when the dreamer awakens, the really epic events (death of a major character, etc.) from the "dream season" will be reversed. Or maybe the "waking up" is the dream?

Please, tell me again how Hallucination IT doesn't fit the "It's all just a dream" trope.

Because it's about fighting the Reapers in Shepard's head. Shepard is not fully indocrinated, yet. The whole series of events is a long, elaborate boss fight using words, not guns. Symbolism and metaphor take center stage. For Control, you grab a set of prongs. For Synthesis, you take a leap of faith. For Destroy, you shoot a tube that looks exactly like the one that fed the baby human reaper tens of thousands of humans processed into a grey smoothie.

[BatmanTurian]

Hackulator wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

davishepard wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you are basically telling a lie. We're talking about an interpretation of a story, not a story made up. You are being intellectually dishonest and you do your side of the aisle no favors by doing so. In fact, it makes it seem as if you haven't even graduated elementary school.

We're talking about a fiction created by distorting what is presented in the game and assigning ocult meanings to almost every part of the said game. I don't care what it makes I seem, and I don't understand why you care. Care to cut down the ad hominem and restrain yourself to discuss only the fan fiction called IT, or you can't do it?

By calling a literary interpretation of an art medium a fan fiction, you are already using ad hominem, so you actually began this little ad hominem dance. I'll continue to call you an idiot who probably flunked every arts class he ever took because he didn't pay attention when the teacher or professor taught him how to look for hidden meanings in stories. These hidden meanings have existed since the earliest stories, like Beowulf and Gilgamesh. This is basic stuff. To call it fan fiction is an insult to the history of the arts of human civilization all the way back to cave paintings. And again, it makes you look like an ignorant fool.

YOUR CASES, YOU ARE VIOLENTLY OVERSTATING THEM

I'm just calling someone out on their purposeful intellectual dishonesty. You can try not reading it if you like.

[davishepard]

BatmanTurian wrote...

By calling a literary interpretation of an art medium a fan fiction, you are already using ad hominem, so you actually began this little ad hominem dance. I'll continue to call you an idiot who probably flunked every arts class he ever took because he didn't pay attention when the teacher or professor taught him how to look for hidden meanings in stories. These hidden meanings have existed since the earliest stories, like Beowulf and Gilgamesh. This is basic stuff. To call it fan fiction is an insult to the history of the arts of human civilization all the way back to cave paintings. And again, it makes you look like an ignorant fool.

OK, I reported you for this. You clearly can't discuss the matter, and gets personally offended because I call IT a fan fiction. That was funny the first time, but now stopped to be.

Modifié par davishepard, 04 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[OblivionDawn]

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

My reaction would be as follows:

"Man, it sucks that Bioware had to resort to a fanfic copout to finish their game, the Singleplayer is completely unfulfilling now."

Fan fiction is a story generated inside another person's story universe created by a fan with new original characters interacting with canon characters or canon characters being fit into a new story. This is fan fiction

Fan fiction is not interpreting media, analyzing literary devices, or looking at an artisitic project with an eye for symbolism and metaphor. Please go take an Art, Lit, Writing, or Film class and stop using a false term just to describe something you dislike. It makes you look very ignorant.

Fan fictions are works of fiction, based another work of fiction, made by fans of that fiction.

The IT is a work of fiction derived from details of Mass Effect fiction, by fans of that fiction. Until it is proven to be true, IT is a fan fiction.

Please try not to twist the meanings of words in your argument, just because someone uses the proper term for a theory that you desperately want to be true. It makes you look very ignorant.

[BatmanTurian]

davishepard wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

By calling a literary interpretation of an art medium a fan fiction, you are already using ad hominem, so you actually began this little ad hominem dance. I'll continue to call you an idiot who probably flunked every arts class he ever took because he didn't pay attention when the teacher or professor taught him how to look for hidden meanings in stories. These hidden meanings have existed since the earliest stories, like Beowulf and Gilgamesh. This is basic stuff. To call it fan fiction is an insult to the history of the arts of human civilization all the way back to cave paintings. And again, it makes you look like an ignorant fool.

OK, I reported you for this. You clearly can't discuss the matter, and gets personally offended because I call IT a fan fiction. That was funny the first time, but now stopped to be.

Report me. Don't care. But the truth is you either don't know the difference between art interpretation and fan-fiction, or you yourself are a troll purposefully being intellectually dishonest. Your argument holds no water. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Erield]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Because it's about fighting the Reapers in Shepard's head. Shepard is not fully indocrinated, yet. The whole series of events is a long, elaborate boss fight using words, not guns. Symbolism and metaphor take center stage. For Control, you grab a set of prongs. For Synthesis, you take a leap of faith. For Destroy, you shoot a tube that looks exactly like the one that fed the baby human reaper tens of thousands of humans processed into a grey smoothie.

I think we're going to have to remain at a disagreement, here.  I feel that the implementation of IT that we currently have fits It Was Just A Dream much better than Battle in the Mind--even if thematically Battle in the Mind is more correct.  The primary reason I believe this is because it essentially acts as a retcon--that which happened, didn't happen.  The Crucible didn't dock and didn't fire; TIM wasn't killed; Anderson isn't dead; etc. etc.  If Battle in the Mind makes that much difference to you, then you can have it--but the problems that I have with It Was Just A Dream still remain, even in that version.

As to whether or not IT is fanfic, it isn't.  Final Hours app clearly shows that Bioware was working on implementing it (as late as November, iirc).  The specific scene in mind was scrapped, but there's no mention if it was implemented another way (say, with the TIM scene) or a more symbolic way (IT's claims of the entire end-sequence being the Indoctrination attempt.)  I disagree with IT overall, but it is.  not.  fanfic.  It's an interpretation of events based on facts known about the intent of the end-game (what few we have) and evidence in game that seems to point that way.

[BatmanTurian]

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

My reaction would be as follows:

"Man, it sucks that Bioware had to resort to a fanfic copout to finish their game, the Singleplayer is completely unfulfilling now."

Fan fiction is a story generated inside another person's story universe created by a fan with new original characters interacting with canon characters or canon characters being fit into a new story. This is fan fiction

Fan fiction is not interpreting media, analyzing literary devices, or looking at an artisitic project with an eye for symbolism and metaphor. Please go take an Art, Lit, Writing, or Film class and stop using a false term just to describe something you dislike. It makes you look very ignorant.

Fan fictions are works of fiction, based another work of fiction, made by fans of that fiction.

The IT is a work of fiction derived from details of Mass Effect fiction, by fans of that fiction. Until it is proven to be true, IT is a fan fiction.

Please try not to twist the meanings of words in your argument, just because someone uses the proper term for a theory that you desperately want to be true. It makes you look very ignorant.

No, sorry. A literary interpretation is the proper term since we're dealing with interpreting the events in a story. Try again.

[Hackulator]

THIS GUY

BatmanTurian wrote...

Report me. Don't care. But the truth is you either don't know the difference between art interpretation and fan-fiction, or you yourself are a troll purposefully being intellectually dishonest. Your argument holds no water. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

IS SUPER SERIOUS

[BatmanTurian]

Erield wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Because it's about fighting the Reapers in Shepard's head. Shepard is not fully indocrinated, yet. The whole series of events is a long, elaborate boss fight using words, not guns. Symbolism and metaphor take center stage. For Control, you grab a set of prongs. For Synthesis, you take a leap of faith. For Destroy, you shoot a tube that looks exactly like the one that fed the baby human reaper tens of thousands of humans processed into a grey smoothie.

I think we're going to have to remain at a disagreement, here.  I feel that the implementation of IT that we currently have fits It Was Just A Dream much better than Battle in the Mind--even if thematically Battle in the Mind is more correct.  The primary reason I believe this is because it essentially acts as a retcon--that which happened, didn't happen.  The Crucible didn't dock and didn't fire; TIM wasn't killed; Anderson isn't dead; etc. etc.  If Battle in the Mind makes that much difference to you, then you can have it--but the problems that I have with It Was Just A Dream still remain, even in that version.

As to whether or not IT is fanfic, it isn't.  Final Hours app clearly shows that Bioware was working on implementing it (as late as November, iirc).  The specific scene in mind was scrapped, but there's no mention if it was implemented another way (say, with the TIM scene) or a more symbolic way (IT's claims of the entire end-sequence being the Indoctrination attempt.)  I disagree with IT overall, but it is.  not.  fanfic.  It's an interpretation of events based on facts known about the intent of the end-game (what few we have) and evidence in game that seems to point that way.

If you really believe that then I'll let it go. We'll agree to disagree. Glad to see we can come to some peaceful resolution.

[Taboo]

Are you....serious?

You don't even have a theory, you have an interpretation. An interpretation of art is never wrong but calling what you have a theory is just ridiculous.

[dreman9999]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

My first reaction would be the realization that Bioware terminated Mass Effect 3 without an ending.

My god, the man speaks the truth.

That should be clear by now...

[RamilVenoard]

To be frank, I would be rather dissapointed. Not necessarily more so then I already am, but nonetheless frustrated.  That has all to do with MY shep though.  Paragon (bit renegade, but only the necessary options, like punching the Admiral in the stomach, and beating the crap out of that stupid reporter. Twice.), with a hint of a death wish--thus his fatal flaw, and the reason he is, for me, a TRAGIC hero.

So for me, even if shep woke up, he still has to die to preserve that which he has struggled and bled to achieve: galactic peace, warm fuzzies, etc.  And yes, I'd love to actually SEE that, not to mention his beloved Miranda.  But IT would make me rather upset because for me that means he dies twice.. which is tacky.  Once in his dream, and once in RL.

It would, however, bring about an interesting point, which it seems many of those who are pro-shep-living-in-the-end are overlooking: Shepard is a man (or woman). Not a god, and NOT invincible.  Certain odds cannot be overcome, even by the most charismatic of leaders and most powerful of soldiers.  Except by the ultimate sacrafice.  His entire team pulled through the suicide mission in ME2. Shouldn't happen again.  I think he should have the choice: Anderson's life? Or his own. What I though was going to happen originally.

Anywho, I went off topic slightly, but my answer to OP stands thus: frustration. IT is not a solution to the ending problem.

[BatmanTurian]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Are you....serious?

You don't even have a theory, you have an interpretation. An interpretation of art is never wrong but calling what you have a theory is just ridiculous.

Theory is common parlance for saying you have an idea that something is happening but you don't have everything to back it up. " I have a theory. Etc. Etc. " But you're right, semantically it is technically an interpretation.

[Icinix]

If IT is true...

...those poor bastardios who don't have internet connections will be my first thought.

[OblivionDawn]

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

My reaction would be as follows:

"Man, it sucks that Bioware had to resort to a fanfic copout to finish their game, the Singleplayer is completely unfulfilling now."

Fan fiction is a story generated inside another person's story universe created by a fan with new original characters interacting with canon characters or canon characters being fit into a new story. This is fan fiction

Fan fiction is not interpreting media, analyzing literary devices, or looking at an artisitic project with an eye for symbolism and metaphor. Please go take an Art, Lit, Writing, or Film class and stop using a false term just to describe something you dislike. It makes you look very ignorant.

Fan fictions are works of fiction, based another work of fiction, made by fans of that fiction.

The IT is a work of fiction derived from details of Mass Effect fiction, by fans of that fiction. Until it is proven to be true, IT is a fan fiction.

Please try not to twist the meanings of words in your argument, just because someone uses the proper term for a theory that you desperately want to be true. It makes you look very ignorant.

No, sorry. A literary interpretation is the proper term since we're dealing with interpreting the events in a story. Try again.

If the IT was only interpretation, you would be correct. But it's not, and you aren't.

The IT concludes that there is more to the story of Mass Effect, based on the interpretations made. Without that presumption, the IT would be nothing but a literary analysis.

But, the existence of the IT demads that there is to the story than was originally released.

Aka, fan fiction. Multiple fan fictions, if you would like to include everyone's opinion on what happens after Shepard "wakes up."

Try again.

[Bill Casey]

RamilVenoard wrote...

that means he dies twice.. which is tacky.  Once in his dream, and once in RL.

And once in Mass Effect 2...

[SackofCat]

Willie,
Indeed it is free. Now. If IT was true, Bioware deliberately made a false ending, and planned to release the real end as DLC.

There is reason to believe that the primary reason we cannot access Javik in the retail version is because Bioware took him out and sold it to us as DLC. Javik was pretty important to better understand the story and even the setting going all the way back to ME1.

Allow me to clarify: If IT were true, I would wonder if Bioware made a poor ending in order to sell the real ending separately a few months later and effectively raise the price of the complete game BUT the unanticipated reaction of many of their fans/customers led them to abandon the scheme.

As for Total Recall,
Keep in mind the difference between controlling the protagonist as the protagonist and passively observing a movie where you have no agency. It has been a while since I saw it so correct me if I am wrong. Total Recall prominently had characters implanting artificial memories. In fact, I believe it was the premise and was established quite early in the story.

I didn't mean to imply that switching genres from science fiction to psychological thriller cannot be done, only that it, for the most part, cannot be done well while maintaining the audience's suspension of disbelief; particularly when it is done at the very end of the final series of a trilogy. Suspension of disbelief is crucial to the type of interactive story that Mass Effect is for at least the first 95%.