283 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Considering your use of strawmen, your debate teachers and professors were clearly wrong, assuming you had any.

It is fan fiction to fabricate new story content (saying that the Crucible scene was all in Shepard's mind, saying that Shepard is still lying on the ground in front of the Citadel beam, etc.) for Mass Effect, based on interpretation of the original story. This is what IT does. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

I also don't know how that translates into "IT isn't interpretation derp."

Maybe you should go back over my posts a few times.

Nah, I've given up on you. I hope you didn't flunk too hard.

You've given up, I understand. Too many big words for you, or maybe too much text. As I said, I don't know how to make it any plainer, so I won't bother.

No, you've made it plain you don't know what you're talking about. You've contradicted yourself twice. At this point, I'm just being nice by disengaging. There's no point debating someone about something they clearly have no knowledge of.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, but all you've done to argue your point is throw around petty insults and give me examples of unrelated cases of interpretation that aren't fanfics.

You've yet to provide any relevant counterpoints. In fact, all you've had to say so far is that "IT is a literary interpretation," when that isn't even the argument. IT contains literary interpretation, that was never in question. But it is also a fan fiction.

Also, feel free to point out where I've contradicted myself, and I will gladly recitfy/elaborate, and still have a stronger argument than yours.

I'm sorry. I just don't know how to explain to you in picture-book terms how ignorant you seem. I'm sure someone will bother to do it. Or not. It's not my job to educate you.

[BigGuy28]

[OblivionDawn]

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you've made it plain you don't know what you're talking about. You've contradicted yourself twice. At this point, I'm just being nice by disengaging. There's no point debating someone about something they clearly have no knowledge of.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, but all you've done to argue your point is throw around petty insults and give me examples of unrelated cases of interpretation that aren't fanfics.

You've yet to provide any relevant counterpoints. In fact, all you've had to say so far is that "IT is a literary interpretation," when that isn't even the argument. IT contains literary interpretation, that was never in question. But it is also a fan fiction.

Also, feel free to point out where I've contradicted myself, and I will gladly recitfy/elaborate, and still have a stronger argument than yours.

I'm sorry. I just don't know how to explain to you in picture-book terms how ignorant you seem. I'm sure someone will bother to do it. Or not. It's not my job to educate you.

You've entirely resorted to ad hominem attacks. You are obviously unequipped to even try to muster up a respectable argument, so I'm done here.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 04 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[Sesshaku]

"Well, at least the ending wasn't true, now let's see the real ending"

[PlumPaul93]

BigGuy28 wrote...

lol

[Mahrac]

wantedman dan wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

My first reaction would be the realization that Bioware terminated Mass Effect 3 without an ending.

My god, the man speaks the truth.

Holy hell, he does.

I need to re-evaluate my worldview

A Song of Ice and Fire FTW

Modifié par Mahrac, 04 juin 2012 - 03:57 .

[liggy002]

On the game without an ending issue, I'd like to add two things:

1. Most of us have already paid for games without an ending, they are called Mass Effect 1 and 2.

2. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect 3 was supposed to be the end to the series, but I would like to retort by simply saying that we are getting the EC for FREE.  They are giving us more bang for our buck.  While true that we should have received the ending on release day (assuming that wasn't the ending) , they are at the very least providing us with this extra content.

And, by the way, A song of Fire and Ice is awesome, I'm watching the finale tonight

Modifié par liggy002, 04 juin 2012 - 03:59 .

[BatmanTurian]

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you've made it plain you don't know what you're talking about. You've contradicted yourself twice. At this point, I'm just being nice by disengaging. There's no point debating someone about something they clearly have no knowledge of.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, but all you've done to argue your point is throw around petty insults and give me examples of unrelated cases of interpretation that aren't fanfics.

You've yet to provide any relevant counterpoints. In fact, all you've had to say so far is that "IT is a literary interpretation," when that isn't even the argument. IT contains literary interpretation, that was never in question. But it is also a fan fiction.

Also, feel free to point out where I've contradicted myself, and I will gladly recitfy/elaborate, and still have a stronger argument than yours.

I'm sorry. I just don't know how to explain to you in picture-book terms how ignorant you seem. I'm sure someone will bother to do it. Or not. It's not my job to educate you.

You've entirely resorted to ad hominem attacks. You are obviously unequipped to even try to muster up a respectable argument, so I'm done here.

Tell me how I'm supposed to explain to someone the difference between a literary interpretation and fan fiction in a different way. Because I've already done it, and you simply don't get it. It's not ad hominem if it's true.

Again, fan fiction is making up a story in someone else's published universe. Literary interpretation is analyzing the hidden meaning in media, especially stories. Indoctrination Theory is an examination of the ending as a metaphor. It adds nothing and takes away nothing. There are no new characters, and no themes that don't fit.

If you don't understand this, you are completely hopeless. I'm an author so maybe I understand these things on a more instinctual level than you do. Either way, this difference is something you learn in school and should already know, which is why it is frustrating that I have to explain such a simple difference to you.

Paradise Lost is Bible fan fiction, for example, and so is Dante's Inferno. Figuring out what the meaning of the whale is to Ishmael or examining the themes of To Kill a Mockingbird is something altogether different and closer to what Indoctrination Theory is.

This isn't up for debate because you are quite simply absolutely wrong from a semantic and objective viewpoint.

Perhaps this page will enlighten you? And this? The difference is night and day.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 juin 2012 - 04:14 .

[BigGuy28]

liggy002 wrote...

On the game without an ending issue, I'd like to add two things:

1. Most of us have already paid for games without an ending, they are called Mass Effect 1 and 2.

2. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect 3 was supposed to be the end to the series, but I would like to retort by simply saying that we are getting the EC for FREE.  They are giving us more bang for our buck.  While true that we should have received the ending on release day (assuming that wasn't the ending) , they are at the very least providing us with this extra content.

And, by the way, A song of Fire and Ice is awesome, I'm watching the finale tonight

Really? That's odd, I remember Mass Effect 1 and 2 having endings.

[GoblinSapper]

EsterCloat wrote...

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Basically this.

I'd be so happy that the nightmare was finally over though. I still see ME video's sometimes and get a little angry about that ending...

[RamilVenoard]

BigGuy28 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

On the game without an ending issue, I'd like to add two things:

1. Most of us have already paid for games without an ending, they are called Mass Effect 1 and 2.

2. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect 3 was supposed to be the end to the series, but I would like to retort by simply saying that we are getting the EC for FREE.  They are giving us more bang for our buck.  While true that we should have received the ending on release day (assuming that wasn't the ending) , they are at the very least providing us with this extra content.

And, by the way, A song of Fire and Ice is awesome, I'm watching the finale tonight

Really? That's odd, I remember Mass Effect 1 and 2 having endings.

Open endings, sure, but endings nonetheless... + the promise of seeing decisions play out in a dynamic ending of ME3. 1 and 2 didnt need dynamic content endings because it was still the middle of the story...

[OblivionDawn]

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you've made it plain you don't know what you're talking about. You've contradicted yourself twice. At this point, I'm just being nice by disengaging. There's no point debating someone about something they clearly have no knowledge of.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, but all you've done to argue your point is throw around petty insults and give me examples of unrelated cases of interpretation that aren't fanfics.

You've yet to provide any relevant counterpoints. In fact, all you've had to say so far is that "IT is a literary interpretation," when that isn't even the argument. IT contains literary interpretation, that was never in question. But it is also a fan fiction.

Also, feel free to point out where I've contradicted myself, and I will gladly recitfy/elaborate, and still have a stronger argument than yours.

I'm sorry. I just don't know how to explain to you in picture-book terms how ignorant you seem. I'm sure someone will bother to do it. Or not. It's not my job to educate you.

You've entirely resorted to ad hominem attacks. You are obviously unequipped to even try to muster up a respectable argument, so I'm done here.

Tell me how I'm supposed to explain to someone the difference between a literary interpretation and fan fiction in a different way. Because I've already done it, and you simply don't get it. It's not ad hominem if it's true.

Again, fan fiction is making up a story in someone else's published universe. Literary interpretation is analyzing the hidden meaning in media, especially stories. Indoctrination Theory is an examination of the ending as a metaphor. It adds nothing and takes away nothing. There are no new characters, and no themes that don't fit.

If you don't understand this, you are completely hopeless. I'm an author so maybe I understand these things on a more instinctual level than you do. Either way, this difference is something you learn in school and should already know, which is why it is frustrating that I have to explain such a simple difference to you.

Paradise Lost is Bible fan fiction, for example, and so is Dante's Inferno. Figuring out what the meaning of the whale is to Ishmael or examining the themes of To Kill a Mockingbird is something altogether different and closer to what Indoctrination Theory is.

This isn't up for debate because you are quite simply absolutely wrong from a semantic and objective viewpoint.

Perhaps this page will enlighten you? And this? The difference is night and day.

I'm glad you provided that Wikipedia page.

From the Fan Fiction page.

The encyclopedic ambitions of transmedia texts often results in what might be seen as gaps or excesses in the unfolding of the story: that is, they introduce potential plots which can not be fully told or extra details which hint at more than can be revealed. Readers, thus, have a strong incentive to continue to elaborate on these story elements,
working them over through their speculations, until they take on a life of their own. Fan fiction can be seen as an unauthorized expansion of these media franchises into new directions which reflect the reader's desire to "fill in the gaps" they have discovered in the commercially produced material.

Let's break this down, shall we?


The encyclopedic ambitions of transmedia texts often results in what might be seen as gaps or excesses in the unfolding of the story (The relative ambiguity of Mass Effect 3's endings compared to the non-space magicness of the rest of the series)

they introduce potential plots which can not be fully told or extra details which hint at more than can be revealed. (The details which imply that Shepard may be indoctrinated and the potential plot saying that Shepard is actually fighting for his mind.)

Readers, thus, have a strong incentive to continue to elaborate on these story elements, working them over through their speculations (This one is obvious, just read any of the IT threads.)

until they take on a life of their own. (The Indoc Theory proper.)

Fan fiction can be seen as an unauthorized expansion of these media franchises into new directions which reflect the reader's desire to "fill in the gaps" they have discovered in the commercially produced material. (Does Indoctrination Theory attempt to fill in the gaps with fanmade elaborations based on speculation? Yup.)



I'm going to pretend that you don't really think claiming to be an author on the internet adds to your credibility.

Because if you do, then I'm an English Professor at Harvard.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 04 juin 2012 - 04:34 .

[BatmanTurian]

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you've made it plain you don't know what you're talking about. You've contradicted yourself twice. At this point, I'm just being nice by disengaging. There's no point debating someone about something they clearly have no knowledge of.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, but all you've done to argue your point is throw around petty insults and give me examples of unrelated cases of interpretation that aren't fanfics.

You've yet to provide any relevant counterpoints. In fact, all you've had to say so far is that "IT is a literary interpretation," when that isn't even the argument. IT contains literary interpretation, that was never in question. But it is also a fan fiction.

Also, feel free to point out where I've contradicted myself, and I will gladly recitfy/elaborate, and still have a stronger argument than yours.

I'm sorry. I just don't know how to explain to you in picture-book terms how ignorant you seem. I'm sure someone will bother to do it. Or not. It's not my job to educate you.

You've entirely resorted to ad hominem attacks. You are obviously unequipped to even try to muster up a respectable argument, so I'm done here.

Tell me how I'm supposed to explain to someone the difference between a literary interpretation and fan fiction in a different way. Because I've already done it, and you simply don't get it. It's not ad hominem if it's true.

Again, fan fiction is making up a story in someone else's published universe. Literary interpretation is analyzing the hidden meaning in media, especially stories. Indoctrination Theory is an examination of the ending as a metaphor. It adds nothing and takes away nothing. There are no new characters, and no themes that don't fit.

If you don't understand this, you are completely hopeless. I'm an author so maybe I understand these things on a more instinctual level than you do. Either way, this difference is something you learn in school and should already know, which is why it is frustrating that I have to explain such a simple difference to you.

Paradise Lost is Bible fan fiction, for example, and so is Dante's Inferno. Figuring out what the meaning of the whale is to Ishmael or examining the themes of To Kill a Mockingbird is something altogether different and closer to what Indoctrination Theory is.

This isn't up for debate because you are quite simply absolutely wrong from a semantic and objective viewpoint.

Perhaps this page will enlighten you? And this? The difference is night and day.

I'm glad you provided that Wikipedia page.

From the Fan Fiction page.

The encyclopedic ambitions of transmedia texts often results in what
might be seen as gaps or excesses in the unfolding of the story: that
is, they introduce potential plots which can not be fully told or extra
details which hint at more than can be revealed. Readers, thus, have a
strong incentive to continue to elaborate on these story elements,
working them over through their speculations, until they take on a life
of their own. Fan fiction can be seen as an unauthorized expansion of
these media franchises into new directions which reflect the reader's
desire to "fill in the gaps" they have discovered in the commercially
produced material.

Let's break this down, shall we?

The encyclopedic ambitions of transmedia texts often results in what
might be seen as gaps or excesses in the unfolding of the story (The relative ambiguity of Mass Effect 3's endings compared to the non-space magicness of the rest of the series)

they introduce potential plots which can not be fully told or extra
details which hint at more than can be revealed. (The details which imply that Shepard may be indoctrinated and the potential plot saying that Shepard is actually fighting for his mind.)

Readers, thus, have a
strong incentive to continue to elaborate on these story elements,
working them over through their speculations (This one is obvious, just read any of the IT threads.)

until they take on a life
of their own. (The Indoc Theory proper.)

Fan fiction can be seen as an unauthorized expansion of
these media franchises into new directions which reflect the reader's
desire to "fill in the gaps" they have discovered in the commercially
produced material. (Does Indoctrination Theory attempt to fill in the gaps with fanmade elaborations based on speculation? Yup.)

I'm going to pretend that you don't really think claiming to be an author on the internet adds to your credibility.

It was an aside and the truth. Maybe others lie on the internet, but I don't. I see no reason to.

I see what meaning you're reading into it, but it's not the same. This text is talking about a fan or group of fans writing a separate story within the same universe and expanding on that universe. It's not the same as processing symbolism and metaphor in an author's original story. The context is different. There are 261 books explaining James Joyce's work in the library of congress. Are these Fan fiction too?

This is what I'm saying. You don't understand the difference between creating a story wholesale and borrowing someone else's characters and setting to do it and analyzing a story for the meaning that the author may or may not have intended to place there. That's why it's an interpretation. It cannot be proven except by Word of God. But it doesn't matter because different things have different meanings to different people. There will always be people who believe that Ferris Bueller is a spoiled narcissistic psychopath as well as people who think he's just a cool guy who seems to have luck on his side and a bit of intellectual giftedness. Both interpretations are true, in a way.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 juin 2012 - 04:44 .

[77boy84]

I'd be disappointed that Bioware intentionally shipped their game with no ending, and without one ready to ship out until months after release.

Seriously, I get the hype behind the IT theory the first few weeks after ME3 released, but at this point... I just hate the idea. I hate that anyone would intentionally release the conclusion to a trilogy as big as ME3 without an actual ending so they could make it later. That's just... wrong.

[BatmanTurian]

Anyway, OD, I'm calling it a night. It's 1 am here and I need sleep. I'm also tired of arguing this with you. Please try to open your mind up to the possibility that you might be wrong. It's a valuable skill.

[OblivionDawn]

BatmanTurian wrote...

It was an aside and the truth. Maybe others lie on the internet, but I don't. I see no reason to.

I see what meaning you're reading into it, but it's not the same. This text is talking about a fan or group of fans writing a separate story within the same universe and expanding on that universe. It's not the same as processing symbolism and metaphor in an author's original story. The context is different. There are 261 books explaining James Joyce's work in the library of congress. Are these Fan fiction too?

This is what I'm saying. You don't understand the difference between creating a story wholesale and borrowing someone else's characters and setting to do it and analyzing a story for the meaning that the author may or may not have intended to place there. That's why it's an interpretation. It cannot be proven except by Word of God. But it doesn't matter because different things have different meanings to different people. There will always be people who believe that Ferris Bueller is a narcissistic psychopath as well as people who think he's just a cool guy who seems to have luck on his side and a bit of intellectual giftedness. Both interpretations are true, in a way.

Fan fiction, by definition, isn't formal enough to have to be a full blown story. If I make a Mass Effect encyclopedia, and then put in my own opinion of how exactly Synthesis works, I don't have to introduce new characters or settings or plots for it to be fiction, made by a fan.

The same applies to IT. No it's not a full blown story, but until it is confirmed, it is still content where there originally was none.

[Makrys]

*walks in... sees thread has basically boiled down to two guys arguing... lets out a sigh...*

See what you've done Bioware? You SEE?!!

*walks back out*

[RamilVenoard]

Makrys wrote...

*walks in... sees thread has basically boiled down to two guys arguing... lets out a sigh...*

See what you've done Bioware? You SEE?!!

*walks back out*

Ehh that's not bioware's fault. People will always ague online. It's a verbal form of comparing genital size.

[Makrys]

RamilVenoard wrote...

Makrys wrote...

*walks in... sees thread has basically boiled down to two guys arguing... lets out a sigh...*

See what you've done Bioware? You SEE?!!

*walks back out*

Ehh that's not bioware's fault. People will always ague online. It's a verbal form of comparing genital size.

Bioware made endings as is. They incited this. Even if it wasn't intentional; their fault.

[thefallen2far]

I would rebuy a new copy of the game... maybe even a collectors edition. 7 spectre packs for multiplayer, and I don't even play multiplayer. I'll go online to these boards to say goodbye and never come back online to these boards again humbled that they truly are the most brilliant team of writers of the medium today.

[ArkkAngel007]

Thankful to stop hearing the BS going on between BatmanTurian and OblivionDawn and others all over the forum.

Aside from that, I'll (hopefully) be happy about it.  Will still hate how the whole situation was handled by both BioWare and the fans though.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 04 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[XXIceColdXX]

To me it would be a great finish. And would redeem the ending.

[Jackums]

EsterCloat wrote...

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Aiyie]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

My first reaction would be the realization that Bioware terminated Mass Effect 3 without an ending.

meh, i already look at it like there is no ending. 

if i didn't there would be no way i could replay the game... which is something i refuse to do, partly because it would ruin the entire series for me and partly because i don't like the idea of having shelled out cash for a game ill only ever play one time.

as it stands now, i can replay the game, and go through the horrible starchild scene again, because IT allows me to believe that there is a logical ending post-red/blue/green choice that I'm just not being directly shown.

honestly, if the EC proves IT to be true, it won't change much for me.

i could quite honestly care less if IT is proven true or not, so long as the EC either fixes the plotholes we have now or still allows me to use my imagination to create a palatable ending.

[TODD9999]

I would be dubious that they had actually intended the IT from day one for several reasons, but willing to go along with it as long as it was done well.