283 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

BigGuy28 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

On the game without an ending issue, I'd like to add two things:

1. Most of us have already paid for games without an ending, they are called Mass Effect 1 and 2.

2. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect 3 was supposed to be the end to the series, but I would like to retort by simply saying that we are getting the EC for FREE.  They are giving us more bang for our buck.  While true that we should have received the ending on release day (assuming that wasn't the ending) , they are at the very least providing us with this extra content.

And, by the way, A song of Fire and Ice is awesome, I'm watching the finale tonight

Really? That's odd, I remember Mass Effect 1 and 2 having endings.  And no, those weren't endings.  I'm pretty sure that Mass Effect 2 showed the Reapers moving along in dark space gettting ready to attack.  That's not an ending.

Then, if one were to assume the IT was valid,  Mass Effect 3 has an ending too, just an open one.  At the end of Mass Effect 2, it shows the Reapers massing in preparation for an attack.  I wouldn't call that an ending either.  Not unlike Mass Effect 3, the fight with the Reapers isn't finished.

Modifié par liggy002, 04 juin 2012 - 08:27 .

[Joccaren]

*Sigh*
*Shakes head*
*Plays through to see if its implemented so that we actually continue to play after Shepard "Wakes up"*
*Finds out we don't, there's just cutscenes and dialogue choices*
*Is disappoint*

[SubAstris]

danby wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I would be disappointed as BW would have let down their fans by not communicating their true intention to so many fans in the actual game that shipped. Instead, people have to scrounge around for tiny details to "prove" IT. IMO, IT is not very consistent with the game taken in its entirety, especially as there are many things which clearly foreshadowed the ending we actually got. Not to mention the game shipped without an ending, and even when the ending did come it was many months later. A dream is seldom not a poor cop-out for bad writing

It would be an extremely cleaver feat of story telling.   That being said I don't believe IT to be true at all.   I think they just ran out of time and had to kinda throw this ending together.  They needed at least anouther 6-12 months of developement to make it as in depth as me2.    You can kind of see it.  Once you get to earth it just kinda seems thrown together at that point.   The part where you talk to your squadmates is very good, but the rest seems kinda rushed.  

IT would have been a great way to buy some developement time while still meeting thier dead line and getting some buzz going about the game.    All they had to say at that point after a month or so of buzz would be 'its not over yet' and everyone would have calmed  down.

It would not be clever IMO, owing to the fact the mass disappointment that accompanied the ending. A good ending, even with a plot twist, shouldn't leave that amount of confusion, it should be clear what is happening at the end (plot resolution is crucial for storytelling).

It's a decent way to buy development time, although it is risky because fans would wonder in the next game whether they getting all the game when they buy it or not

[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...

it wouldn't be " it's all a dream ", people. The proper trope is Battle In The Center Of The Mind.

It's a war of the mind, a boss fight in Shepard's head. It All  Was A Dream means nothing mattered and it was all B.S. But it wasn't B.S. because it would be a battle for Shepard's mind and soul.

You are right, to a certain extent, but things such as post-Catalyst scene, with the relay destroying, serve very little to no purpose

And nice rip from TV Tropes, too bad it doesn't even talk about Mass Effect as an example

Modifié par SubAstris, 04 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[WillieStyle]

SackofCat wrote...
As for Total Recall,
Keep in mind the difference between controlling the protagonist as the protagonist and passively observing a movie where you have no agency. It has been a while since I saw it so correct me if I am wrong. Total Recall prominently had characters implanting artificial memories. In fact, I believe it was the premise and was established quite early in the story.

Mass Effect prominently had characters being indoctrinated by the reapers. In fact, every major humanoid antagonist (Saren, the Collectors, TIM) Shepherd faces has been indoctrinated. Insidiousness of reaper indoctrination is a constant theme of the Mass Effect series. 

[SackofCat]

I am not arguing that indoctrination does not exist in the Mass Effect universe. It is well established in the first game.

I would argue that implanting reaper tech is different both because of mechanics and, from what we know, effects. I am comparing the vague descriptions, mostly in Mass Effect 1, of external indoctrination and the repurposing of the host into an active reaper avatar as in the case of Paul Grayson, Saren on the citadel in the end, and, in a similar vein, the collectors. The collectors are a different in that they were (according to Mordin) eventually cloned and how their biological systems were replaced by technology is unknown.

TIM is also difficult to pin down, at least until he puts reaper stuff in his body. He may be an example of an altogether different method that the reapers use to dominate over organics.

My impression is that IT implies the first kind of indoctrination ie signals that emanate from objects meant to indoctrinate. The effects of this kind have not been elaborated on much. The few details we have correspond poorly with all of the things that happen in the current end of ME3. Take another look at the wiki page on indoctrination. How much of what Shepard experiences falls under this catagory; most notably a full blown imaginary world with personifications of will and lots of illogical stuff? If you think it fits, you would probably be more satisfied with an indoctrination ending than I would.

IT would likely throw much of the story into question. How much is real? When did indoctrination really start and did Shepard do the things he/she did for the reasons you think or is that what the reapers want you/her/him to think?

[liggy002]

Leafs43 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

TheGreatDayne wrote...

I would be very disappointed... I bought collector's edition for this?
I mean, come on! The ending was a dream?! Sure, the ending that is already in the game makes no sense, but an explanation to them would be nice.

Then, I will express my grief by playing Heavy Rain, and killing all the characters, except for the killer... Oh well, at least that ending is more satisfying than the whole dream thing...

You obviously don't understand the findamental concept that IT is not an ending.  It's siomply a plot point no different then Thessia or Cerberus' headquarters.

No, it means that the game shipped withoutt an ending, that people paid either $60 or $80 USD for a game that was incomplete. That is what it means BW plays the "IT was correct all the time" card. You can't call it a plot point when it wasn't part of what shipped out and it has to have the "real ending" added.

EC costs nothing.


Therefore it doesn't matter because the ending included in EC is part of your purchase price.  



Think about this for a second:  ME2's ending was dlc that you had to purchase.



problem?

This, everyone has their panties in a twist about this.... the EC is going to be free.  They aren't charging us for it.  So what's the big deal?

[templarfrost]

wantedman dan wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

My first reaction would be the realization that Bioware terminated Mass Effect 3 without an ending.

My god, the man speaks the truth.

Holy hell, he does.

Does he!

[Pelle6666]

Mindgasm...

[lordhugorune]

I'm definitely thinking at this point that IT is true, so it will simply be a confirmation of sorts, although some clarification would be helpful.

(Maybe) a slight twist - which I'm not sure about yet - is that with the work Shepherd does up to that point building EMS (Military force and technological expertise), Hackett's alliance has enough to dock the crucible with the catalyst and destroy the reapers- regardless of what you do. The indoctrination is, in effect, the Reaper's last chance.to change the effect of the crucible and make it work in their favour. By choosing destroy you basically flip them the bird.

I'm keeping an open mind about the ending either way.

[redknight38]

-- So if this Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true, then a good chunk of this game's player base will be very angry that they were shipped an incomplete game. It would lead to an understandable loss of trust in the Bioware brand and would probably lead to a loss of future customers.

-- If the theory turns out to be false, then its very... enthusiastic... supporters will likely be very angry and will probably leave the Bioware brand. For instance, I can only imagine the humiliation that that fellow who made the hour-long documentary will feel.

-- All of this can only be avoided if the Extended Cut is completely satisfying to all... i.e.it has to be damned near perfect, and be able to satisfy a player base that has had several months to fester in rage at the company and that has completely fractured along what can only be described as Yugoslavian-level of sectarian bitterness.

--Ironically, the Extended Cut was to be released precisely to prevent dedicated customers from leaving.

--I think the only prediction we can make with some confidence is that, wow, Bioware is kind of screwed. I hope the developers are mailing out resumes. Either that or they'll go from being developers for an AAA product to making Frogger remakes for the IPhone.

Modifié par redknight38, 04 juin 2012 - 10:31 .

[liggy002]

Bill Casey wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

It saddens me that people actually believe this. If it wouldn't come off as condescending and rude, I'd make a poll asking the age of people who subscribe to this point of view.

Thirty...

I'm just about 30 too.  Too be honest, I don't know why the hell somebody wouldn't want a completely new ending or series of endings.  That is what the IT offers.  Why is it so terrible, other than the incomplete game thing?

Really, I want to know.  What is so bad about that?  You would rather have them just attempt to explain the ending?  Screw this shooting the pipe to kill the Reapers s***.  It's a dumbing down to what should have been an epic finale to Mass Effect 3.

[lordhugorune]

redknight38 wrote...

-- So if this Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true, then a good chunk of this game's player base will be very angry that they were shipped an incomplete game. It would lead to an understandable loss of trust in the Bioware brand and would probably lead to a loss of future customers.

If you interpret it as the ending not being fully explained, I think they've been shipped an incomplete game as it stands - as a literal ending clearly makes very little sense to a rational person. On the other hand, the game content is still playable to the end either way.

As for loss of trust in the brand and future customers - that's a complicated issue. I personally think the biggest consequence for the fanbase is that people who hate the ending now, and hate the players who DON'T hate the ending because they are open to the possibility of IT, well they will be really really fuming that IT turned out to be right, and they'll accuse Bioware of giving in to the IT fans and changing their vision for the game.

On the other hand if IT is false, then so long as they do a far better job of what explains with the ending, I don't think many people will be all that upset once they see it and once it sinks in. Although if the despair and confusion associated with the ending as it stands both remain, it will remain a difficult emotional experience for many.

Modifié par lordhugorune, 04 juin 2012 - 10:39 .

[Wulfram]

"Well, that makes no sense."

[NubXL]

My reaction would be that BioWare took the idea from forum speculators and ran with it.

[liggy002]

lordhugorune wrote...

redknight38 wrote...

-- So if this Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true, then a good chunk of this game's player base will be very angry that they were shipped an incomplete game. It would lead to an understandable loss of trust in the Bioware brand and would probably lead to a loss of future customers.

If you interpret it as the ending not being fully explained, I think they've been shipped an incomplete game as it stands - as a literal ending clearly makes very little sense to a rational person. On the other hand, the game content is still playable to the end either way.

As for loss of trust in the brand and future customers - that's a complicated issue. I personally think the biggest consequence for the fanbase is that people who hate the ending now, and hate the players who DON'T hate the ending because they are open to the possibility of IT, well they will be really really fuming that IT turned out to be right, and they'll accuse Bioware of giving in to the IT fans and changing their vision for the game.

On the other hand if IT is false, then so long as they do a far better job of what explains with the ending, I don't think many people will be all that upset once they see it and once it sinks in. Although if the despair and confusion associated with the ending as it stands both remain, it will remain a difficult emotional experience for many.

If the IT is false, I will have lost any semblence of respect that I have for Bioware and will become a fully loyal supporter of CD Projekt Red.  If the IT is false, I will realize just how far this company has fallen.

Modifié par liggy002, 04 juin 2012 - 10:42 .

[redknight38]

lordhugorune wrote...

If you interpret it as the ending not being fully explained, I think they've been shipped an incomplete game as it stands - as a literal ending clearly makes very little sense to a rational person. On the other hand, the game content is still playable to the end either way.

As for loss of trust in the brand and future customers - that's a complicated issue. I personally think the biggest consequence for the fanbase is that people who hate the ending now, and hate the players who DON'T hate the ending because they are open to the possibility of IT, well they will be really really fuming that IT turned out to be right, and they'll accuse Bioware of giving in to the IT fans and changing their vision for the game.

On the other hand if IT is false, then so long as they do a far better job of what explains with the ending, I don't think many people will be all that upset once they see it and once it sinks in. Although if the despair and confusion associated with the ending as it stands both remain, it will remain a difficult emotional experience for many.

I'm sure you're correct one way or another and so the point still stands:

-- This Extended Cut will have to be perfect, satisfying a wide gamut of opinions from an enraged and divided player base that has had far too much time to get angrier and angrier.

-- Ergo, Bioware is... in trouble. The developers should check if John Romero's current company is hiring.

[liggy002]

lordhugorune wrote...

redknight38 wrote...

-- So if this Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true, then a good chunk of this game's player base will be very angry that they were shipped an incomplete game. It would lead to an understandable loss of trust in the Bioware brand and would probably lead to a loss of future customers.

If you interpret it as the ending not being fully explained, I think they've been shipped an incomplete game as it stands - as a literal ending clearly makes very little sense to a rational person. On the other hand, the game content is still playable to the end either way.

As for loss of trust in the brand and future customers - that's a complicated issue. I personally think the biggest consequence for the fanbase is that people who hate the ending now, and hate the players who DON'T hate the ending because they are open to the possibility of IT, well they will be really really fuming that IT turned out to be right, and they'll accuse Bioware of giving in to the IT fans and changing their vision for the game.

On the other hand if IT is false, then so long as they do a far better job of what explains with the ending, I don't think many people will be all that upset once they see it and once it sinks in. Although if the despair and confusion associated with the ending as it stands both remain, it will remain a difficult emotional experience for many.

   My logic stands as the exact opposite of yours.  People will get angry that they didn't get the full ending, though I would argue that it was an ending, just an open ended one.  Most people take issue with the ending itself and wanted a new one. 

   IT potentially offers new endings or to be more specific, EXPANSIONS.  Attempting to explain the ending to people who didn't like it as if they weren't smart enough to understand it in the first place is a bit insulting to the fan base and quite frankly doesn't address what the majority of people want, A NEW ENDING NOT AN EXPLAINED ONE.

   Anyways, if IT turns out to be true,  they would get angry about it but would get over it eventually and continue buying Bioware products.  It's human nature to engage in irrational behavior.

Modifié par liggy002, 04 juin 2012 - 10:53 .

[Mobius-Silent]

*Sigh* oh dear
Play it with a heavy heart and see what the was added in for the _actual_ ending.

[Jadebaby]

Isichar wrote...

My first reaction would be to laugh at the current pro enders

This^, followed by a lot of comments in "Synthesis and control support  threads before they lock it.

Then I would rejoice that I can actually play Mass Effect again.. But more importantly, love Mass Effect again


Also OP. You should add a question mark in the title. Or change it to IF The IT is True.

It seems contradictory to say "The IT is True" then state that the thread isn't for discussion of whether IDT is true or not lol.

But yes, there have been many threads like this before. I think Chris Priestly even made one on HTL.com

[Pride Demon]

Depends on how it's handled...
I'm not particularly in favour or against IT, but I said several times there are a few things IT proposes that just don't sit well with me... Namely the elevation of Destroy to the status of "one true ending" while everyone else is left in the cold...

That totally removes any meaning to your decision, you pick red or you lose, if they have to go that far, then I'd rather they make a completely new finale from scratch instead of "repairing" the old one with IT.
So like I said, if IT is true, my reaction to it will depend on how they handle it...

[Robhuzz]

I would be relieved.

The current ending is just so bad that I cannot fathom how people can say it is good. I can understand some people have low standards and LIKE the current ending, but people actually saying it's 'deep' and 'sophisticated' really tick me off because it's apparent they don't know a darn thing about it.

For the record: There is nothing sophisticated about digging up a buried plot point and reintroduce it in the final 5 minutes (Synthetics vs. organics was shot down in ME2 when legion expressed the Reapers were a threat to everyone and considered an alliance, and further received a beating when you explored the geth consensus in ME3.) What incompetent writer would seriously dig up this plot point again I wonder?

I wouldn't sink so low as to actually laugh at the anti IT crowd or post taunting messages though I would have a smirk on my face when reading their comments. Basically it's ''horrible writing'' versus ''planned IT''. Give me the IT please.

I might actually be able to play ME again if it were true.

[Feanor_II]

The IT is true....

What would your reaction be?

Let's start by saying that I'm not a pro-ender, neither an IT-ish..... But I would be closer to being a pro-ender, I like the endings global concept, but it's poorly implemented.

About the question..... I would not reject the "new ending", I always tend to receive story conclusions totally open mind, this attitude saves me from disapoinments because I'm not "making demands" of how the ending should be, as long as it is a good idea and is well written I'm fine (The current ending only passes 1 of the 2 conditions)

And how would I receive that fan comunity imposes it's wishes and ideas to developers? (Sorry, but I can't believe that IT was BW idea from the begining), well, with mixed feelings:
1) Good: It would show the strength of the gaming collective, that could act as couter force to excesive ruthless corporative practices (yeah, DLC's that goes for you)
2) Bad: I fear that that strength could also coerce writers/developers creative freedom, focusing only in pure cheap fanservice

[lordhugorune]

Pride Demon wrote...

Depends on how it's handled...
I'm not particularly in favour or against IT, but I said several times there are a few things IT proposes that just don't sit well with me... Namely the elevation of Destroy to the status of "one true ending" while everyone else is left in the cold...

The way I see IT, which is probably different to how most see it, destroy isn't necessarily the "one true ending". I see synthesis - whatever the **** that actually is - and control - as being the Reapers using Shepherd to find a way out of the mess they're in, thanks to the completion of the Crucible. To what extent control would be Shepherd controlling the Reapers, or the Reapers controlling Shepherd, that's a bit of an open question.