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[Aifell_Ellion]

toastar wrote...


What's with all the support class talk? Capping objectives and killing bosses are two of the 4 main objectives, if anything that makes the Infiltrator one of the mainstays of the group, and what's wrong with that?

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I understand and respect your opinion too. I think cutting the DMG bonus of the TC in half and buffing the DMG Solidiers do with weapons would make a lot of people happy. Infiltrators have a good damage boost and the Solidier actually FEELS like a weapons master. That's why I think many people are angry with Infiltrators, they do more weapon damage than Soldiers.

A properly specced and played soldier should outkill an infiltrator in any weapon class except the Sniper rifle and maybe shotguns and that's how it should be tbh.

An infiltrator is a Soldier/Engineer hybrid, there's no reason why he shouldn't deal as much weapon damage as a soldier, it's not like he has other überpowers going for him, he is less surviveable out of cloak after all.

Infiltartor tnh is much more survivable that soldier. He has same hp same shileds same hp regen same shileds regen. SI has ED. Infs have cloack, which redierects agro on friendlies. And on top of this infiltrator also deals more damage.

[Mystical_Gaming]

I hope infiltrator doesn't get ruined. I very much like my Female Quarian Infiltrator.

[humes spork]

Atheosis wrote...

The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Yes if they over-nerf Tactical Cloak Infiltrators will suck. But a small nerf like making the damage bonus additive rather than multiplicative would not render the class "nearly useless". The fact is that Infiltrators do too much damage relative to every other class right now. I really can't believe people are arguing otherwise.

That's rather the point. People are assuming any nerf to cloak's bonus damage is "too much" and would render the class "nearly useless".

[Aifell_Ellion]

Mystical_Gaming wrote...

I hope infiltrator doesn't get ruined. I very much like my Female Quarian Infiltrator.

It wont ever get ruined. You'll just have to be more skillful and tactical aware to play him. Just like any other class.

[We Tigers]

 Why does that guy keep spelling it "cloack"?   Anyway, this comment irked me:

The Mad Hanar wrote...
I understand and respect your opinion too. I think cutting the DMG bonus of the TC in half and buffing the DMG Solidiers do with weapons would make a lot of people happy. Infiltrators have a good damage boost and the Solidier actually FEELS like a weapons master. That's why I think many people are angry with Infiltrators, they do more weapon damage than Soldiers.

Erm..so you want soldiers to have better than the 50-70% damage boost they get now, which they get for 5.2-6.8 seconds?  And you want the infiltrators to do...what, 45-65% damage, which they'd get for 2.5 seconds?   It sounds like you want people to stop playing infiltrators and switch to soldiers, because all the utility of "capping objectives" and "reviving teammates" applies to about 5% of the game.   Also, infiltrators have done more burst damage than soldiers in every Mass Effect game to this point.  It's nothing new.  

humes spork wrote...

Atheosis wrote...
The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Yes if they over-nerf Tactical Cloak Infiltrators will suck. But a small nerf like making the damage bonus additive rather than multiplicative would not render the class "nearly useless". The fact is that Infiltrators do too much damage relative to every other class right now. I really can't believe people are arguing otherwise.

That's rather the point. People are assuming any nerf to cloak's bonus damage is "too much" and would render the class "nearly useless".

Tiny changes wouldn't render it useless, but I don't think the "Cloack is OP" crowd would be satisfied with, say, 5-10% off each of the rank 4 and rank 6 damage boosts, given the seeming ferocity of their objections.  I don't even like that idea, because I really don't see the point, but I definitely object to anyone saying something like "halve the damage boost."

Modifié par We Tigers, 04 juin 2012 - 10:29 .

[Adhok42]

humes spork wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Yes if they over-nerf Tactical Cloak Infiltrators will suck. But a small nerf like making the damage bonus additive rather than multiplicative would not render the class "nearly useless". The fact is that Infiltrators do too much damage relative to every other class right now. I really can't believe people are arguing otherwise.

That's rather the point. People are assuming any nerf to cloak's bonus damage is "too much" and would render the class "nearly useless".

It will be. I'm barely killing Shock Troops in one headshot as the system currently is now. The balance between "Kill" and "No Kill" hinges that the current system not swing ether way as it is finely balanced right now.

You let it tip too far because the player base demanded it be "ajusted" and it will all come crashing down.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I think TC should have the same limitations as Singularity. It should only give a bonus damage for unprotected enemies and all enemies with any sort of protection should be able to see through it. 

[Atheosis]

Adhok42 wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Yes if they over-nerf Tactical Cloak Infiltrators will suck. But a small nerf like making the damage bonus additive rather than multiplicative would not render the class "nearly useless". The fact is that Infiltrators do too much damage relative to every other class right now. I really can't believe people are arguing otherwise.

That's rather the point. People are assuming any nerf to cloak's bonus damage is "too much" and would render the class "nearly useless".

It will be. I'm barely killing Shock Troops in one headshot as the system currently is now. The balance between "Kill" and "No Kill" hinges that the current system not swing ether way as it is finely balanced right now.

You let it tip too far because the player base demanded it be "ajusted" and it will all come crashing down.

What weapon are you using?  Because the BW definitely does not barely kill mooks in one headshot with TC.  It kills them with ease without even getting a headshot actually. 

[Jay Leon Hart]

Atheosis wrote...

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Adhok42 wrote...
That's why I always go for the skulls if I can help it. You nerf the bonus damage and even a Cloaked Headshot won't be able to put them down. Kind of sad for class that prides itself on being heavily sniper based.

Which is why all I want changed is Cloak bypassing the weight-cooldown system - then it's not just a case of "what will give me the most kills?" but "what weapon best balances weight so I can still kill quickly, but doesn't give Cloak a 20s cooldown?"

Thus leading to heavy sniper rifles never being used...

Someone has never played as/with a Stasis (Black) Widow sniper, or seen a Soldier use a heavy sniper rifle, I take it.

[sibergaming]

Sigh. One of the few shooting games I find and enjoy, and everyone wants to nerf everything so they can have a bigger e-peen contest.

Modifié par sibergaming, 04 juin 2012 - 10:35 .

[Aifell_Ellion]

We Tigers wrote...

 Why does that guy keep spelling it "cloack"?   Anyway, this comment irked me:

The Mad Hanar wrote...
I understand and respect your opinion too. I think cutting the DMG bonus of the TC in half and buffing the DMG Solidiers do with weapons would make a lot of people happy. Infiltrators have a good damage boost and the Solidier actually FEELS like a weapons master. That's why I think many people are angry with Infiltrators, they do more weapon damage than Soldiers.

Erm..so you want soldiers to have better than the 50-70% damage boost they get now, which they get for 5.2-6.8 seconds?  And you want the infiltrators to do...what, 45-65% damage, which they'd get for 2.5 seconds?   It sounds like you want people to stop playing infiltrators and switch to soldiers, because all the utility of "capping objectives" and "reviving teammates" applies to about 5% of the game.   Also, infiltrators have done more burst damage than soldiers in every Mass Effect game to this point.  It's nothing new.  

If you're making a drastic suggestion like that, you shouldn't make a suggestion. 

because cloack is closer to cloaca.
Anyway. Soldiers are supposed to deal damange with heavy weapons. And wait. Every 5.2-6.8 seconds? Which guns do you want to use to get that? an avenger? kidding ok? but with 2 heavy weapons it will still take more time.
You might not noticed, but if you want a 70% damage for soldier, you might want to lose 40% damage decrease. That's exactly what should differ soldier and inf. Survivng. As soldier and inf has same hp, nearly same damage bonus (inf more), and add to this durability which comes from cloack much more than from adrenaline rush. In ME1 inf were not able to regenarate, as well as had lesser hp. And soldier as well as inf had assasination and was able to use sr, and as well shotguns. So soldier dealt same or even more weapon damage, and was tougher. Now, infs deal more damage, and live longer. Pretty cool and balanced, huh?

[toastar]

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

Infiltartor tnh is much more survivable that soldier.

Yes, most certainly, but that's because you can avoid damage, not suck it up like a soldier or sentinal.
Well played soldiers don't die a lot either, it just requires a different skillset.

Try not taking those passives and go for powers instead, the next time a phantom sees through the cloak of your GI, you.will.die.

You can spec an Infiltrator for surviveability, or course, but then you're either left with very little power damage or no proper grenades.

 

Aifell_Ellion wrote...
 And on top of this infiltrator also deals more damage.

A Soldier with marksman skill and a heavy auto weapon out-DMSs every infiltrator, you just have to get closer top the enemy.
A Batarian or Krogan Soldier who does not interpret his health stat as an open invitation for stupidity can soak up a lot of abuse.
An infiltrator does better with a sniper rifles (its his signature weapon, duh) and due to to the fact that he gets closer to the enemy unpunished also some shotguns, but a well played soldier or sentinel can score just as well as an infiltrator, the learning curve is just steeper.

Modifié par toastar, 04 juin 2012 - 10:41 .

[Lee80]

sibergaming wrote...

Sigh. One of the few shooting games I find and enjoy, and everyone wants to nerf everything so they can have a bigger e-peen contest.

For real.    The nerf fest has really gotten old. 

[Adhok42]

Atheosis wrote...

What weapon are you using?  Because the BW definitely does not barely kill mooks in one headshot with TC.  It kills them with ease without even getting a headshot actually. 

Are you shooting the trash (Assault Trooper, Geth Trooper, Cannabal, Husk) or the Shock Troops (Centurion, Marauder, Rocket Trooper, Geth Hunter)?

Because I'm shooting the Shock Troops.

[Atheosis]

We Tigers wrote...
Tiny changes wouldn't render it useless, but I don't think the "Cloack is OP" crowd would be satisfied with, say, 5-10% off each of the rank 4 and rank 6 damage boosts, given the seeming ferocity of their objections.  I don't even like that idea, because I really don't see the point, but I definitely object to anyone saying something like "halve the damage boost."

If it were up to me, and I couldn't actually recode it to change it to an additive bonus like it should be, I would make TC work as follows: 50% base damage bonus, rank 4 +30%, rank 6 +30% with sniper rifles (so yeah I'd be mostly satisfied with your idea).  I'd then add small damage buffs like +15% with rank 4 duration, and +10% with rank 6 bonus power, so that some people might actually want to take them instead of going pure damage all the time. 

[MissMinaethiel]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

I think TC should have the same limitations as Singularity. It should only give a bonus damage for unprotected enemies and all enemies with any sort of protection should be able to see through it. 

No. Just... no. What point would cloak serve if nearly all the units can see through it? The only things a cloaked Infiltrator would fool would be normal troopers, Cannibals, Husks, and... wait, that's all =O You would kill the point of Infiltrators being Infiltrators with a change like that. There would also be no point in taking damage bonuses on any evolutions because Infiltrators would have to waste ammo on breaking shields first. Instead of being able to focus on multiple units quickly, they would have to spend more time focusing on one unit. Plus just think of those one-shot sniper rifles; aren't they already punished enough with shield gate?

Limiting bonuses and the abilities of cloak just cripples the class since they don't have any other truly reliable offensive powers.

[toastar]

Adhok42 wrote...

Are you shooting the trash (Assault Trooper, Geth Trooper, Cannabal, Husk) or the Shock Troops (Centurion, Marauder, Rocket Trooper, Geth Hunter)?

Because I'm shooting the Shock Troops.

A BW will bodyshoot most of those on Gold coming out of cloak.

Low level BWs need gear though, that I'll admit.

[Adhok42]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I'm trying to say is make Soldiers more effective with weapons. There is no reason that the Infiltrator should do the most damage with weapons, that's the Soliders job.

You do realize the Infiltrator is a hybrid of the Solider and the Engineer right? They have strenghts of both but excel at nether? Soldier is the Combat class. Engineer is the Tech class.

Infiltrators are the Combat/Tech Hybrid. They combine the damage of the soldier with the technical finess of the Engineer but are not as hardy as the Soldier nor as versetile as the Engineer.

[Atheosis]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

We Tigers wrote...

 Why does that guy keep spelling it "cloack"?   Anyway, this comment irked me:

The Mad Hanar wrote...
I understand and respect your opinion too. I think cutting the DMG bonus of the TC in half and buffing the DMG Solidiers do with weapons would make a lot of people happy. Infiltrators have a good damage boost and the Solidier actually FEELS like a weapons master. That's why I think many people are angry with Infiltrators, they do more weapon damage than Soldiers.

Erm..so you want soldiers to have better than the 50-70% damage boost they get now, which they get for 5.2-6.8 seconds?  And you want the infiltrators to do...what, 45-65% damage, which they'd get for 2.5 seconds?   It sounds like you want people to stop playing infiltrators and switch to soldiers, because all the utility of "capping objectives" and "reviving teammates" applies to about 5% of the game.   Also, infiltrators have done more burst damage than soldiers in every Mass Effect game to this point.  It's nothing new.  

What I'm trying to say is make Soldiers more effective with weapons. There is no reason that the Infiltrator should do the most damage with weapons, that's the Soliders job. The Solider only really has two things, his guns and his grenades. An Infiltrator has the ability to easily cap objectives and revive. People really underestimate the value of those things, at least they do in this thread. If a Infiltrator uses an Indra, Krysea or Black Widow, that 2.5 seconds can go a long way. That 45-65% damage can get a Widow kill where it would otherwise leave a few bars of health. It wouldn't destroy TC's usability at all. It would just balance the weapon reliant classes out.

Soldiers are actually one of the most balanced classes in the game.  They don't need a buff.  They've actually gotten plenty already.  Nor do Infiltrators need a nerf so severe as a 50% damage reduction.  That's just massive overkill.

[Aifell_Ellion]

toastar wrote...

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

Infiltartor tnh is much more survivable that soldier.

Yes, most certainly, but that's because you can avoid damage, not suck it up like a soldier or sentinal.
Well played soldiers don't die a lot either, it just requires a different skillset.

Try not taking those passives and go for powers instead, the next time a phantom sees through the cloak of your GI, you.will.die.

You can spec an Infiltrator for surviveability, or course, but then you're either left with very little power damage or no proper grenades.

 

Aifell_Ellion wrote...
 And on top of this infiltrator also deals more damage.

A Soldier with marksman skill and a heavy auto weapon out-DMSs every infiltrator, you just have to get closer top the enemy.
A Batarian or Krogan Soldier who does not interpret his health stat as an open invitation for stupidity can soak up a lot of abuse.
An infiltrator does better with a sniper rifles (its his signature weapon, duh) and due to to the fact that he gets closer to the enemy unpunished also some shotguns, but a well played soldier or sentinel can score just as well as an infiltrator, the learning curve is just steeper.

It is like that in some situations. In others it's like i'm saying it. But it's not the point/. I just want to see infs been brought back to the main mechanics or weight and cd. Rules are rules. For eveyone. Wont ruin infs. Still deal damage, Mantis and raptor will be preferable, though.

[Atheosis]

Adhok42 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I'm trying to say is make Soldiers more effective with weapons. There is no reason that the Infiltrator should do the most damage with weapons, that's the Soliders job.

You do realize the Infiltrator is a hybrid of the Solider and the Engineer right? They have strenghts of both but excel at nether? Soldier is the Combat class. Engineer is the Tech class.

Infiltrators are the Combat/Tech Hybrid. They combine the damage of the soldier with the technical finess of the Engineer but are not as hardy as the Soldier nor as versetile as the Engineer.

Are you really saying Infiltrators don't excel at combat?  Seriously?

[Atheosis]

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

toastar wrote...

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

Infiltartor tnh is much more survivable that soldier.

Yes, most certainly, but that's because you can avoid damage, not suck it up like a soldier or sentinal.
Well played soldiers don't die a lot either, it just requires a different skillset.

Try not taking those passives and go for powers instead, the next time a phantom sees through the cloak of your GI, you.will.die.

You can spec an Infiltrator for surviveability, or course, but then you're either left with very little power damage or no proper grenades.

 

Aifell_Ellion wrote...
 And on top of this infiltrator also deals more damage.

A Soldier with marksman skill and a heavy auto weapon out-DMSs every infiltrator, you just have to get closer top the enemy.
A Batarian or Krogan Soldier who does not interpret his health stat as an open invitation for stupidity can soak up a lot of abuse.
An infiltrator does better with a sniper rifles (its his signature weapon, duh) and due to to the fact that he gets closer to the enemy unpunished also some shotguns, but a well played soldier or sentinel can score just as well as an infiltrator, the learning curve is just steeper.

It is like that in some situations. In others it's like i'm saying it. But it's not the point/. I just want to see infs been brought back to the main mechanics or weight and cd. Rules are rules. For eveyone. Wont ruin infs. Still deal damage, Mantis and raptor will be preferable, though.

Your last sentence sums up why your idea is terrible.

[toastar]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I'm trying to say is make Soldiers more effective with weapons. There is no reason that the Infiltrator should do the most damage with weapons, that's the Soliders job.

Says who? The Soldier could just as well be the meatshield to the Infiltrators glass cannon.

Depending on how you build him the Inf is either a soldier with a few tech powers or a Techie with a heavy soldier bias.

But if its not guns, how is a Human or quarian infiltrator to kill otherwise? Those 3 genades won't get you very far.

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The Solider only really has two things, his guns and his grenades. An Infiltrator has the ability to easily cap objectives and revive. People really underestimate the value of those things, at least they do in this thread. If a Infiltrator uses an Indra, Krysea or Black Widow, that 2.5 seconds can go a long way. That 45-65% damage can get a Widow kill where it would otherwise leave a few bars of health. It wouldn't destroy TC's usability at all. It would just balance the weapon reliant classes out.

Reviving and ojective capping do not fill out a game, they are the icing on the cake.

Modifié par toastar, 04 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[Adhok42]

Atheosis wrote...

Are you really saying Infiltrators don't excel at combat?  Seriously?

No they just don't have the same survivablty under a barrage of fire that the solider has. They have all of the Soldier class's offensive power with none of his survival perks. They work best when the enemy doesn't have a chance to fight back.

Note that this description is before the addition of human error. This is the Infiltrator fresh from the box without being tweaked in any way by the player. Once the Infiltrator finds their way into a creative player's hands, his job description could change drastically.