301 réponses à ce sujet

[StarStruck010]

Since this thread is already about nerfing infiltrators I'll kick out the idea I had when I asked myself, "if you had to nerf sniper infiltrators, how would you do it?"
(Note I am not advocating any nerfs not even to the OP rocket launcher, but I accept nerfs do happen and I would like them to be as bearable as possible). I thought well AR is +70% damage, why is TC6 *1.4 damage? And given a free hand I would probably make TC6 add 40% and then buff the underperforming SRs to compensate therein making snipers useful to others and slightly nerfing the infils.

On another note, why are ammo powers multiplicative as well?

[curly haired boy]

just give cloak a hard minimum cooldown time of 4 seconds, problem solved

[humes spork]

paperbook wrote...

My AJA and GE is speced for defence and healing. And I am OK with it.

Indeed. As someone who plays the support classes almost exclusively, there's nothing wrong with it.

My most-played class without a doubt is SE, and I've specced mine for defense and distraction. My #2 is my pure defense AJA, and my #3 right now is my area scanning MQE. It's a cooperative team game, the entire point is to synergize with your team and work together to achieve a common goal.

If, as an infiltrator, that means you're debuffing/taking out high-priority enemies, while reviving and achieving objectives as your primary goal, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Sovereign24 wrote...

Nothing gives me the lols quite like infiltrator fans trying to say that TC doesn't need to be balanced.

Look I love playing Infiltrator. But as it stands, it really is easy mode.

Balancing it would still leave it as an elite class.

What's even more amusing is watching these babies who want weapons nerfed now on the defensive and some even in panic mode when the problem is discussed at it's source rather than treating the symptoms.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 04 juin 2012 - 04:52 .

[Sovereign24]

StarStruck010 wrote...

Since this thread is already about nerfing infiltrators I'll kick out the idea I had when I asked myself, "if you had to nerf sniper infiltrators, how would you do it?"
(Note I am not advocating any nerfs not even to the OP rocket launcher, but I accept nerfs do happen and I would like them to be as bearable as possible). I thought well AR is +70% damage, why is TC6 *1.4 damage? And given a free hand I would probably make TC6 add 40% and then buff the underperforming SRs to compensate therein making snipers useful to others and slightly nerfing the infils.

On another note, why are ammo powers multiplicative as well?

I would just get rid of the 6th evolution of TC (40% Sniper damage). To me that's where alot of the OP problems lie.

Modifié par Sovereign24, 04 juin 2012 - 04:53 .

[Immortal Strife]

humes spork wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

...Without that extra weapon damage, infiltrators' only uses would be to revive undetected, and to cap objectives undetected...

God forbid infiltrators have to work with their team in a team game and use their cloak for things other than "roflstompbadgais". As it is, "merely" the ability to revive, cap, and reposition undetected is overwhelmingly useful to a smart player who's working with their team opposed to lone wolfing like some kind of confused CoD reject.

Okay, Renengade. Then you be the team medic, while I do something useful such as: tech burst, biotic explode, charge and shotgun, adreniline rush and shotgun, marksman and saber, set up a decoy, send out a drone, crowd control with overload, set up a turret, ballistic blade and melee, throw some inferno grenades, throw some cluster grenades, blood rage and flamer with a Reegar.

"Oh, I have not been downed yet. Sorry man, I'll call you when I need you, BTW where the hell is our sniper, oh yeah there is none."

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 04 juin 2012 - 04:58 .

[Adhok42]

StarStruck010 wrote...

On another note, why are ammo powers multiplicative as well?

Different defences have diffrent elemental weaknesses as well. Disruptor gets bonuses against Synthetics and Shields. Incinerary against Organics and armor. Warp against barriers and to a lesser degree armor. Armor Penitration is self explanatory. Cryo instantly snap freezes anything without protection and "Ices down" anything that does making them take more damage from subsequent shots.

[Immortal Strife]

Sovereign24 wrote...

StarStruck010 wrote...

Since this thread is already about nerfing infiltrators I'll kick out the idea I had when I asked myself, "if you had to nerf sniper infiltrators, how would you do it?"
(Note I am not advocating any nerfs not even to the OP rocket launcher, but I accept nerfs do happen and I would like them to be as bearable as possible). I thought well AR is +70% damage, why is TC6 *1.4 damage? And given a free hand I would probably make TC6 add 40% and then buff the underperforming SRs to compensate therein making snipers useful to others and slightly nerfing the infils.

On another note, why are ammo powers multiplicative as well?

I would just get rid of the 6th evolution of TC (40% Sniper damage). To me that's where alot of the OP problems lie.

I take it that you use shotguns on your infiltrators or can't snipe for beans.

[StarStruck010]

@Adhok42
Yes but in almost all cases I've seen (typically slow weapons, I'll have to look at fast weapons specifically as they maybe different) warp ammo 1 is better than rail amp 3, and that seems wrong.

Edit: @sovereign
Why would anyone carry a SR then since that would make Paladin the best sniper, and shotguns the preferred weapon of infiltrators (which it seems to go that way now). On top of that, what would you replace it with? Cooldown reduction, pointless unless it can break the minimum 3s cd. Power amp, useless for many builds and op on others. I mean this is a rank 6 evolution it is supposed to be good, so if not sr damage then what?

Modifié par StarStruck010, 04 juin 2012 - 05:02 .

[Sovereign24]

Immortal Strife wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

StarStruck010 wrote...

Since this thread is already about nerfing infiltrators I'll kick out the idea I had when I asked myself, "if you had to nerf sniper infiltrators, how would you do it?"
(Note I am not advocating any nerfs not even to the OP rocket launcher, but I accept nerfs do happen and I would like them to be as bearable as possible). I thought well AR is +70% damage, why is TC6 *1.4 damage? And given a free hand I would probably make TC6 add 40% and then buff the underperforming SRs to compensate therein making snipers useful to others and slightly nerfing the infils.

On another note, why are ammo powers multiplicative as well?

I would just get rid of the 6th evolution of TC (40% Sniper damage). To me that's where alot of the OP problems lie.

I take it that you use shotguns on your infiltrators or can't snipe for beans.

Funnily enough I usually rock my Widow when playing my SI.

I just think an additional 40% damage bonus, to the 90% you're already getting, is a tad excessive.

Modifié par Sovereign24, 04 juin 2012 - 05:01 .

[Adhok42]

StarStruck010 wrote...

@Adhok42
Yes but in almost all cases I've seen (typically slow weapons, I'll have to look at fast weapons specifically as they maybe different) warp ammo 1 is better than rail amp 3, and that seems wrong.

Not always. Warp ammo doesn't get a bonus against things like Shields. That's where the extra damage from the rail amp comes in. Also understand that the Amps only apply a certain bonus damage PERCENTAGE OF THE WEAPON'S BASE DAMAGE to the weapon. For low damage weapons it's going to be very neglegable due to the low base damage to begin with. This is why lower damage weapons usually have a higher RoF so they can fire more bullets to attempt to match with the slower, higher damage weapons.

[Lynx7725]

I wonder if the people calling for a TC nerf actually played Infiltrators seriously. If all an infiltrator did was to kill things all days with the TC buff, then it's not really the class at fault, it's the player.

The player failed to see the advantages of TC for objective grab/ cap.
The player failed to see the advantages of TC for revivals.
The player failed to see the advantages of TC for repositioning.

Just as I don't blame the Vanguard class (or one of its abilities!) for the whole Clownguard issues, you should look to see if it's a bad player before blaming the class.

-------------

You also have to bear in mind the weaknesses of the Infiltrator with TC.

TC prevents health and shield regeneration. GI is terrible if it gets caught. Weak health and halved shields in Hunter mode, cloaked means no regeneration. Totally glass.

Most Infiltrators have little means to crowd control. They mostly have that one gun. They can't handle big mobs effectively or as effectively as some other classes. All that massive damage applied to one little Trooper leaves 3 other Troopers gunning after the Infiltrator.

Infiltrators don't do as well in hack objectives as other classes. Staying inside that hack circle is usually underutilizing the class ability. Similarly, Escort missions are not great for Infiltrators, as they lose the cloak ability and can only handle a limited number of opponents at one time.

-------------

Do I think the Infiltrator is a bit over the top? Only in the sense that it's a fairly one dimensional build, so it has to be quite good at what it does. You build mostly to deliver damage. Is nerfing the damage the way to go? In this case maybe not. Increasing cloak duration and allowing for alternative builds that are not as "insane" as pure melee builds may be better. IMO the Male Quarian Infiltrator might be a good step -- it tact cloaks and designates targets for others to take out. This kind of build requires longer cloak time, and is an alternative to the sniper infiltrator.

[Sovereign24]

Lynx7725 wrote...
Most Infiltrators have little means to crowd control. They mostly have that one gun. They can't handle big mobs effectively or as effectively as some other classes. All that massive damage applied to one little Trooper leaves 3 other Troopers gunning after the Infiltrator.

The Krysae has kind of eliminated that problem. With it, Infiltrators can be the best at crowd control.

Modifié par Sovereign24, 04 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[Fox-snipe]

Sovereign24 wrote...

Lynx7725 wrote...
Most Infiltrators have little means to crowd control. They mostly have that one gun. They can't handle big mobs effectively or as effectively as some other classes. All that massive damage applied to one little Trooper leaves 3 other Troopers gunning after the Infiltrator.

The Krysae has kind of eliminated that problem. With it, Infiltrators can be the best at crowd control.

More like crowd destruction depending on who you ask.

I seriously can't see any self-respecting (sniping) Infiltrator using (or maybe relying on is more correct) the Krysae.  But then that's me, and I prefer the penetration of the standard rifle and feeling like my aim & headshots matter.

Which means the Krysae is a problem, which leads to threads like this where people will defend the weapon to the death at the cost of a class' entire ability.  (Killing a single weapon has a smaller impact in the grand scheme of things.)

It's a vicious cycle, and it seems like no matter what we (the Infiltrators) can't win.  Maybe the Krysae should have been an Assault Rifle, like an upgraded Striker.

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 04 juin 2012 - 05:23 .

[Wolfsbladex]

paperbook wrote...

Tactical Cloak gives you more protection than Tech Armor.
It has not 90% or 130% damage bonus,
it has not cooldown boost (but has cooldown penalty) and still playable.

Not sure if you're joking, a child, or being silly. Here's the facts (and associated bugs): http://masseffect.wi.../Tactical_Cloak

[n80613]

Funny how none of this was an issue until the Krysae came along...TC has already been nerfed in my experience. Lots of enemies seem to be able to see me regardless of when/where I cloak, this is not the way the game played at launch. There are also glitches to it further nerfing its usability... (having to sit in cover hitting Y 3-4x to reset it to usable gets a bit annoying). Ever since I played with the Krysae my opinion was they should delete the gun and forget it ever happened. Its OP even on a soldier with adrenaline rush. Shoot 3x, adrenaline rush instant reload shoot 3x more, reload cancel and repeat. I don't feel that my level 6 soldier speced only for adrenaline rush should finish first in a gold match (by a 30k margin) with excellent players based solely on the Krysae. Stupidly OP gun, not infiltrators. Oh, and if something was to be nerfed how about taking away the ridiculous auto-aim? Half the issue with a SI using a widow is their ability to quick scope like a boss. Just my 2 cents...

[Fox-snipe]

Auto-aim hurts more than it helps. Too many times I've had to correct my aim by a large margin after I scope in.

[paperbook]

Wolfsbladex wrote...

paperbook wrote...

Tactical Cloak gives you more protection than Tech Armor.
It has not 90% or 130% damage bonus,
it has not cooldown boost (but has cooldown penalty) and still playable.

Not sure if you're joking, a child, or being silly. Here's the facts (and associated bugs): http://masseffect.wi.../Tactical_Cloak

I was not going to joke. If you have nothing to say except insults better be silent.

[Wolfsbladex]

StarStruck010 wrote...

@Adhok42
Yes but in almost all cases I've seen (typically slow weapons, I'll have to look at fast weapons specifically as they maybe different) warp ammo 1 is better than rail amp 3, and that seems wrong.

Edit: @sovereign
Why would anyone carry a SR then since that would make Paladin the best sniper, and shotguns the preferred weapon of infiltrators (which it seems to go that way now). On top of that, what would you replace it with? Cooldown reduction, pointless unless it can break the minimum 3s cd. Power amp, useless for many builds and op on others. I mean this is a rank 6 evolution it is supposed to be good, so if not sr damage then what?

Rank 6 is fine. Infiltrators are meant to be stealth-ops Snipers. Rank 4 is imbalanced. They Infiltratirs are not meant to be weapons masters stronger than a Soldier (imbalance).

[Adhok42]

Wolfsbladex wrote...
Rank 4 is imbalanced. They Infiltratirs are not meant to be weapons masters stronger than a Soldier (imbalance).

That was intentional. The Tac Cloak bonus only allows you to drill down one target at a time meaning you need to keep reusing it and steadly remove the enemies as well as focusing more on the elite mobs.

Soldiers can clear small groups with almost no effort and can help support Infiltrators with sustaned withering fire to prevent them from regnerating secondary protection (shields/barriers).

[Darksaberexile]

Fox-snipe wrote...
I seriously can't see any self-respecting (sniping) Infiltrator using (or maybe relying on is more correct) the Krysae.  But then that's me, and I prefer the penetration of the standard rifle and feeling like my aim & headshots matter.

Which means the Krysae is a problem, which leads to threads like this where people will defend the weapon to the death at the cost of a class' entire ability.  (Killing a single weapon has a smaller impact in the grand scheme of things.)

I definitely agree with this. My favorite gun to use is black widow with piercing and extended barrel mods. Shooting an enemy through the cover they decided to hide behind is a lot of fun, and having to aim can make it challenging.

I'll admit I've used the Krysae the last 2 days since I unlocked it, but mostly because I wanted to have some fun with it + get a feel of it for myself. Once I put it down, I doubt I'll pick it up again (ok, I might equip it on my GE because the viper IV i've been using on it is just so lackluster lol). Personally, using the Krysae makes me feel bad, and I've found myself actually trying to play down a bit to compensate for it. If, at any point, a weapon makes you sit there during a game thinking of ways to make it do less damage, or ways to underperform with it, it's not a good weapon.

Hm...having written that, I'm going back to the black widow I in the morning. (any way i can trade a Krysae II and some shotguns for some black widow upgrades?)

[n80613]

Fox-snipe wrote...

Auto-aim hurts more than it helps. Too many times I've had to correct my aim by a large margin after I scope in.

I can see where you're coming from, it gets a bit annoying scoping in on a swarmer when I'm trying to hit the ravager next door.  However I would argue that it helps SIGNIFICANTLY a lot more often than it hurts, I think those glaring examples of swarmer quick scopes just stick out in peoples minds a lot more than the times it worked the way it was "supposed to."  I feel it really takes the skill out of sniping, and requiring that skill would be worthy of the current damage bonus TC recieves.  Again, that is just my opinion.

[Lynx7725]

Sovereign24 wrote...

Lynx7725 wrote...
Most Infiltrators have little means to crowd control. They mostly have that one gun. They can't handle big mobs effectively or as effectively as some other classes. All that massive damage applied to one little Trooper leaves 3 other Troopers gunning after the Infiltrator.

The Krysae has kind of eliminated that problem. With it, Infiltrators can be the best at crowd control.

I've used the Krysae. I like it, but it didn't replace my Valiant II. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

Truth is, Krysae got a number of disadvantages that makes me not want to take it. Projectile Lag makes it harder to compensate for moving subjects, which means I'm actually slower at trash clearing. Explosive AoE means I should check what is left after one shot rather than just keep killing, otherwise I waste valuable ammo. And the AI is fairly good at spreading out, which makes the AoE less useful than precieved, but more than a hitscan ammo.

I went back to the Valiant and had a huge performance jump. Granted, the problems can be mastered, but...

I agree with Adhok42. A properly spec'ed Soldier clears or at least staggers many enemies much easier than an Infiltrator. Infiltrator kills, Soldier sets up the kill.

Modifié par Lynx7725, 04 juin 2012 - 05:50 .