301 réponses à ce sujet

[humes spork]

Immortal Strife wrote...

Okay, Renengade. Then you be the team medic, while I do something useful such as: tech burst, biotic explode, charge and shotgun, adreniline rush and shotgun, marksman and saber, set up a decoy, send out a drone, crowd control with overload, set up a turret, ballistic blade and melee, throw some inferno grenades, throw some cluster grenades, blood rage and flamer with a Reegar.

"Oh, I have not been downed yet. Sorry man, I'll call you when I need you, BTW where the hell is our sniper, oh yeah there is none."

Playing with randoms as much as I do, I generally do end up playing team medic, runner, capper and retriever, usually while throwing out my bubble, decoying, crowd controlling, distracting the enemies, and maybe when I get a spare second or two deal some damage.

The infiltrator in the game is usually somewhere across the map taking potshots at low-priority targets to pad their score, or something. I've never quite figured that one out. 
I recognize that's a symptom of a bad player opposed to a bad class, but on the other hand that's precisely the type of play that's rewarded in this case and contrary to the notion of a cooperative game.

Usually when I'm playing infiltrator I'm reviving, capping, and minding a flank near (but not too far away) my team for fire support, calling out enemy types and positions and hitting high-priority enemies. In a match earlier today for example, three geth hunters were encroaching on my team; I proxied them and took one shot at each to shieldgate and drop their cloak, and called them out to my team to finish them off. From my standpoint, it's better my team finishes off three weakened hunters that are now after me (when I can take cover and cloak to escape before they can draw a bead) than to two-shot one, shieldgate a second, and let a third cloaked hunter inflict hunter chaos on my team while I'm on the reload.

Also, I can't help but notice you seem to espouse the idea that if an infiltrator can't one- or two-shot anything save bosses, they're worthless. Welcome to the other five classes' plight when it comes to dealing damage, buddy. Hope you enjoy your stay.

[Lynx7725]

n80613 wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

Auto-aim hurts more than it helps. Too many times I've had to correct my aim by a large margin after I scope in.

I can see where you're coming from, it gets a bit annoying scoping in on a swarmer when I'm trying to hit the ravager next door.  However I would argue that it helps SIGNIFICANTLY a lot more often than it hurts, I think those glaring examples of swarmer quick scopes just stick out in peoples minds a lot more than the times it worked the way it was "supposed to."  I feel it really takes the skill out of sniping, and requiring that skill would be worthy of the current damage bonus TC recieves.  Again, that is just my opinion.

To be really honest.. An Infiltrator decides who dies first. Autoaim screws with that. I don't want the scope to lock into a harmless Trooper when his Centurion is the one whose head I want to bust. I want that Centurion dead, I want my scope to put the crosshairs on the head so that I can plow a 140% damage round through it.

If it's all trashmobs it helps, but when I have to quickly eliminate big threats to the team -- that's what that 140% is for, right? -- I rather the system not help me pick out a trash mob to kill.

[Fox-snipe]

n80613 wrote...
I can see where you're coming from, it gets a bit annoying scoping in on a swarmer when I'm trying to hit the ravager next door.  However I would argue that it helps SIGNIFICANTLY a lot more often than it hurts, I think those glaring examples of swarmer quick scopes just stick out in peoples minds a lot more than the times it worked the way it was "supposed to."  I feel it really takes the skill out of sniping, and requiring that skill would be worthy of the current damage bonus TC recieves.  Again, that is just my opinion.

The "fix" for that then is to put headshot back on the enemies that matter (bosses).  But then you get people complaining about how the bosses are too easy. *sigh*

If headshots actually mattered (make them a little weaker if you want to provide a challenge, but don't for a minute think center-mass shooting a bullet sponge is any more of a challenge) then one of the Tac Cloak damage bonuses could apply only to headshots.  I think that'd be fair.  It wouldn't really impact those of us that already try to aim for headshots, and it would reward us for doing so.

[Lucius Aelius]

Get rid of the infiltrator's damage bonus and bring back critical hits with extra potency to compensate, if you can get critical hits (head shot, canopy, etc) consistently then by all means have your damage bonus, you deserve it. As it is any noob can hit anywhere on any enemy and with tactical cloak it will always magically be a critical hit (per the reasoning why infiltrators ever had a damage bonus to begin with).

Make it so you have to earn your bonus, and also that any class can do the same damage with weapons, tactical cloak helping you by actually (instead of magically) letting you line up your shot without drawing fire and get your critical hit by *gasp* actually aiming and shooting at the weak spot.

The way I envision it, anyone who can aim shouldn't have a problem, and anyone who can't probably shouldn't be relying so much on a gun. If they then make cloak actually work right and make you truly invisible, the infiltrator will be what I initially thought it was and should have been from the start, and this game would take a giant leap towards becoming balanced.

There would be room I think in an adjusted TC for one of the evolutions to offer a 10-20% damage bonus in either shotguns or snipers, and a few other tweeks would also be needed to make that idea workable, but as it is having automatic critical hits just by being invisible is preposterous and silly, it makes no sense in this game and has no place in any shooter where you have such fine control over where you aim. I would think it obvious to everyone that in order to get a critical hit you should actually have to get the critical hit instead of having it handed to you on a silver platter. Maybe it's just me though.....

[n80613]

Fox-snipe wrote...

n80613 wrote...
I can see where you're coming from, it gets a bit annoying scoping in on a swarmer when I'm trying to hit the ravager next door.  However I would argue that it helps SIGNIFICANTLY a lot more often than it hurts, I think those glaring examples of swarmer quick scopes just stick out in peoples minds a lot more than the times it worked the way it was "supposed to."  I feel it really takes the skill out of sniping, and requiring that skill would be worthy of the current damage bonus TC recieves.  Again, that is just my opinion.

The "fix" for that then is to put headshot back on the enemies that matter (bosses).  But then you get people complaining about how the bosses are too easy. *sigh*

If headshots actually mattered (make them a little weaker if you want to provide a challenge, but don't for a minute think center-mass shooting a bullet sponge is any more of a challenge) then one of the Tac Cloak damage bonuses could apply only to headshots.  I think that'd be fair.  It wouldn't really impact those of us that already try to aim for headshots, and it would reward us for doing so.

Makes sense to me, if you were to re-work the rank 6 sniper damage of TC to apply only to headshots I would gladly accept that.  Being able to center-mass shoot weaker enemies makes the game significantly less challenging anyway.  Makes me a very lazy sniper sometimes

[Adhok42]

Lucius Aelius wrote...
Make it so you have to earn your bonus, and also that any class can do the same damage with weapons, tactical cloak helping you by actually (instead of magically) letting you line up your shot without drawing fire and get your critical hit by *gasp* actually aiming and shooting at the weak spot.

You do know that by cloak shooting the head with a sufficantly high damage weapon you can negate the shield gate right?

Hell I'm oneshotting the Shock Troops this way. All the damage bonuses combined with passive headshot bonus on top of the innate headshot bonus everyone gets allows me to just destroy everything except those that which cannot be headshotted.

Watching those cloaked Hunters fall while still cloaked is very satifiying. I was very proud of myself when I one shotted a Cerberus Centurion for the first time. Head went POP!

Modifié par Adhok42, 04 juin 2012 - 06:19 .

[Darksaberexile]

Fox-snipe wrote...

The "fix" for that then is to put headshot back on the enemies that matter (bosses).  But then you get people complaining about how the bosses are too easy. *sigh*

If headshots actually mattered (make them a little weaker if you want to provide a challenge, but don't for a minute think center-mass shooting a bullet sponge is any more of a challenge) then one of the Tac Cloak damage bonuses could apply only to headshots.  I think that'd be fair.  It wouldn't really impact those of us that already try to aim for headshots, and it would reward us for doing so.

I think that would be a welcome change. Killing a prime faster by shooting it in the head makes sense, and is a lot more challenging than "cloak, empty clip into the prime's chest, reload, repeat".

It would also encourage use of sniper rifles that aren't the Krysae, which isn't able to get headshots,(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this), since rifles like the black widow or javelin would tear down bosses much more quickly than the Krysae, and with fewer shots used.

[n80613]

Lynx7725 wrote...

n80613 wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

Auto-aim hurts more than it helps. Too many times I've had to correct my aim by a large margin after I scope in.

I can see where you're coming from, it gets a bit annoying scoping in on a swarmer when I'm trying to hit the ravager next door.  However I would argue that it helps SIGNIFICANTLY a lot more often than it hurts, I think those glaring examples of swarmer quick scopes just stick out in peoples minds a lot more than the times it worked the way it was "supposed to."  I feel it really takes the skill out of sniping, and requiring that skill would be worthy of the current damage bonus TC recieves.  Again, that is just my opinion.

To be really honest.. An Infiltrator decides who dies first. Autoaim screws with that. I don't want the scope to lock into a harmless Trooper when his Centurion is the one whose head I want to bust. I want that Centurion dead, I want my scope to put the crosshairs on the head so that I can plow a 140% damage round through it.

If it's all trashmobs it helps, but when I have to quickly eliminate big threats to the team -- that's what that 140% is for, right? -- I rather the system not help me pick out a trash mob to kill.

Sorry for the double post.  I see where you guys are coming from now, I agree, sometimes the auto-aim is a bit of a nerf in and of itself.  If rank 6 was to be reworked for headshot damage auto-aim would be an even bigger nerf.  I usually at least make an effort to tweak the shot to pop heads anyway so it doesn't really bother me, just puts an even bigger emphasis on lining shots up and not quick scoping.  From what I have experienced with TC it would also increase the recharge time as it seems the longer you stay in cloak the longer your recharge is.  That would somewhat negate the ability to reload cancel by using TC.  Kind of makes sense if there is really such a huge outcry to nerf infiltrators.  I still think the Krysae is a large part of this problem though...

[Lucius Aelius]

And with extra headshot damage to compensate you wouldn't need the tactical cloak's boost, if anything good infiltrators should love my idea, they'd get their true invisibility back and still get their critical hits. I believe that more than qualifies as having your cake and eating it too.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

It can't be anymore useless than the engineer, Half the soldiers,Half the sentinels, A quarter of the adepts, and the Cerberus Vanguard

[ArkkAngel007]

Fixing the duration damage bonus (to only work when cloaked) is perfect. Also, lowering the 90% bonus to perhaps 60-50% wouldn't be a bad idea either, though I still think the aforementioned fix will give no one a rational reason to complain.

Edit: People also tend to forget that many of the S.R.s are only useful because of said damage boost.  The Valient?  Prepare for that gun to be useless on Gold if the boost goes away.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 04 juin 2012 - 06:30 .

[n80613]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

And with extra headshot damage to compensate you wouldn't need the tactical cloak's boost, if anything good infiltrators should love my idea, they'd get their true invisibility back and still get their critical hits. I believe that more than qualifies as having your cake and eating it too.

I do love your idea after going back and reading through it.  I have a GI using a valiant with TC only up to rank 4; the only reason I use the cloak is for evading (objectives, revives and the like), or get the 40% damage bonus on my proxy mines.  I can work with this setup quite effectively.  Like you said, with some tweaking I think your idea would be a workable comprimise.  Anything rewarding actual skill is fine in my book.

[Lucius Aelius]

That's not really a valid argument, just boost the base damage of all sniper rifles.

[Saaz5555]

Tbh if TC didn't provide any damage bonuses it still would be the most usefull ability in the game.

[Lynx7725]

n80613 wrote...

Kind of makes sense if there is really such a huge outcry to nerf infiltrators.  I still think the Krysae is a large part of this problem though...

I don't personally think there's really a big issue with Infiltrators. I tend to game late nights and I am more awake using an Infiltrator rather than say, an Adept. So at the very least, there's more concentration involved...

(Aside: I tend to stay amused with my Grenadier Soldier late at night, because that arcing grenade bounce is soooo interesting...  )

The problem with Infiltrators that people are seeing is really about bad Infiltrator players. It's like the Vanguard problem, not much to do with the class but more with the people playing it. The issue with the class in both cases is that the class is structured to reward certain behaviour -- Vanguards to charge in to wreck havoc, Infiltrators to stay back and shoot. Neither class has much in terms of alternative builds, though at least the Infiltrators now have the Shotfiltrator and Sneaky Scout editions.

Bad players just take things to extremes and refuses to consider that this is a co-op game. Nerfing Infiltrators won't solve the root cause, it'll just shift the crap to another class, while penalizing the geniunely decent/ good Infiltrators.

If the Krysae is a problem, tweak the Krysae, not the Infilitrator. It probably just need a 10% reduction in damage (and you're likely to see it in balance notes soon) -- it's base damage is actually not that high. But that has little to do with the Infiltrator class.

Want to make the Infiltrator more useful? Instead of the Rank 4 (or was that 5) headshot ability, just change it to reduce cap objective time, revive time, or hack time (?) by say.. 10%? That'll give sneakfiltrators more build options -- you can sneak in to deliver a claymore to the face, or be a more objective/ revival based team player.

As for bringing back the weak spots on boss... as an infiltrator I aim for the weak spots anyway. Atlas groins and various plates, Ravager nose, Brute backside, Pyro cannister, that kind of thing. Still go more or less for Prime head, good habits are hard to kick. Weak spots would make things more interesting, I suppose. But as a replacement for damage boost? Instinctive is no thanks, but maybe workable.

[heybigmoney]

Tac cloak nerf was a long time coming guys, this isn't anything new. It was always the most imbalanced ability in the game.

[CSMone01]

tell ya what. You can nerf Tactical Cloak's weapon damage when they remove the AOE from biotic explosion. It's only fair that Adepts and vanguards can't blow large groups of enemies up, right?

[Adhok42]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

And with extra headshot damage to compensate you wouldn't need the tactical cloak's boost, if anything good infiltrators should love my idea, they'd get their true invisibility back and still get their critical hits. I believe that more than qualifies as having your cake and eating it too.

While true then the extra headshot damage would apply to all classes as it does now. The Infiltrator's damage bonus is the only thing that sets them apart from other classes and makes them what they are. The natural preditor of tougher, single, elite enemies. Your idea has merrit but it doesn't help the Infiltrator in any way retain it's glory of "Elite Hunter".

As for increasing the base damage to the S.R. they already take out the trash in a single (or three) hit WITHOUT cloak or headshots. Again this defeats the purpous of attempting "balance" as you put it.

[InfamousResult]

Hex Code wrote...

If the damage bonus, from running tactical cloak was reduced or taken away completely I wouldn't give the infiltrator another look.

That's too bad. You could've increased your team's chances on those tough Objective Waves and really given them a boost in survivability. But because they don't have the crazy sick DPS any more, you're going to dump them off to the side and never play them again. Tsk tsk.

[molecularman]

If TC was nerfed smartly, we could achieve some balance.

[Mozts]

1s increase at the minimal Cloak cooldown wont stop Infiltrators from being very powerful. Right now its 3 seconds, making other powers cooldown a joke for the infiltrator.

Modifié par Mozts, 04 juin 2012 - 12:28 .

[Rifneno]

Thanix Cannons will be fine.

/thread

[TheAdventurer29]

We need to know what BALANCE means to a game before even suggesting nerfing things and buffing things. Just because a player plays it and hate it, doesn't mean he or she should destroy the fun that the other players are having. The new guns are freaking powerful though lol.

[Babi_Siha]

People won't stop asking about nerfs until soldier is the best class in the game. Infiltrator doesn't need nerf and also this isn't PvP, people should stopping complaining about OP classes and weapons and just play the game for fun. Besides, is not like BW actually listens to what he have to say anyway.

[GodlessPaladin]

Saaz5555 wrote...

Tbh if TC didn't provide any damage bonuses it still would be the most usefull ability in the game.

I would never take it.