301 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

Being able to dump agro on the non-infiltrators is a huge advantage. And you want a huge damage bonus on top of it? Take a good look at the last 7 letters of the word infiltrator.

Another possibilty would be to give every other class a damage bonus or more defense to off set the extra aggro.

[We Tigers]

Fortack wrote...

We Tigers wrote...

Without damage bonuses, cloak is just a revive/flank/objective tool that happens to put most of your aggro on your teammates. Running around invisible for 8 seconds to set up a normal damage shot simply wouldn't be worth it, and infiltrators would no longer be useful as snipers. There is a very fine line here and anyone proposing a major dropoff in damage doesn't see it.

So everyone except Infiltrators and human Soldiers are worthless snipers? That's BS but if it were true it would be a very good reason for BW to look at their sniper rifles.

Actually, I think that's pretty close to the truth, though not my primary point. Other classes have much better powers than an infiltrator without damage bonuses would have. Cryo + sticky? Sabotage + sticky? GI is pretty good, SI has two good powers, and I haven't played QMI yet, but again--one grenade, one debuff, just like the human. If an infiltrator can't get big damage bonuses and other classes have better powers, than they would be fairly useless as snipers compared to, say, any adept, engineer, etc., which would be dealing the same sniper damage.

[nicethugbert]

Being able to dump agro on the non-infiltrators is a huge advantage. And you want a huge damage bonus on top of it? Take a good look at the last 7 letters of the word infiltrator.

Another possibilty would be to give every other class a damage bonus or more defense to off set the extra aggro.

[Zso_Zso]

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

Zso_Zso wrote...

I wouldn't mind if the damage bonuses were taken away from TC, IFF the cloak actually made the player invisible to the enemy.Then it would be a true tactical cloak. But the actual nerfing to date has been going in the opposite direction. The invisibility is a complete joke, all the enemy is just laughing about it while they shoot the crap out of the cloaked infiltrator with homing missiles and such.

The recent buffs to the enemy has turned TC into a glorified adrenalin rush. I am OK with this too, but if you want to nerf the only functional feature of TC, then you must bring back the original invisibility to full effect.

you just cant use it properly.

Really ? Then please teach me!, I am listening!
Here is an example from last night: I cloak around the corner, then walk to a hacking objective and activate it. Next moment a rocket trooper's missile hit my face from half-way accross the map -- which trooper could not possibly see me before cloaking and I was far enough from it, so its not the proximity excuse. So tell me how would you use it "properly" in this situation.

[Mozts]

ZombieGambit wrote...

Leave everything pretty much the same. I know there are one or two powers here and there that need buff/nerfs, but for the most part they're not powers that an entire class depends on.

Why would a co-op game need to be nerfed? Is it that people feel that they need more points and instead of getting better they want to nerf the class/weapon that the lobby leader was using?

Co-op, PVP, PVE, horde, survival, MMO, RPG, fighting... Just labels and names.

This game in unbalanced. Minor nerf for cloak would help with that issue.

[Aifell_Ellion]

The Milky Waver wrote...

Weapon damage is all the infiltrator has, and maybe a few side powers here and there that are usefull in some situations, but other than that, ZIP. Without that extra weapon damage, infiltrators' only uses would be to revive undetected, and to cap objectives undetected, and would have much less offensive strength, so please, don't nerf the tactical cloak.

Is not it what infiltators are meant to do? I mean revive, cap objectives?
They're not meant to do significant amount of damage and stay hidden at same time!
The fact that they're now not cooldown dependant makes them outstand other classes by giving them ability to use heavy weapons (tha deal more damage and meant to increase cd) without increasing cooldown time! and that's ridiculous! Because they break the main mechanics of the game.
If this is erase, INFs can still go for mantis and have cd of their tc in range from 2 (with weight bonuses) to 3,5 seconds. Which still keep them able to complete their main goal (besides from cap obj and revivng) - eliminate enemy snipers and long-range shooters! 
One other thing is that SI is outstanding other inf cuz he is the only one with tech power. Cryo blast should be buffed to penetrate through at least shileds (better bariers to) or replaced by overload/sabotage/or smth like damping from me1.

[Aifell_Ellion]

Zso_Zso wrote...

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

Zso_Zso wrote...

I wouldn't mind if the damage bonuses were taken away from TC, IFF the cloak actually made the player invisible to the enemy.Then it would be a true tactical cloak. But the actual nerfing to date has been going in the opposite direction. The invisibility is a complete joke, all the enemy is just laughing about it while they shoot the crap out of the cloaked infiltrator with homing missiles and such.

The recent buffs to the enemy has turned TC into a glorified adrenalin rush. I am OK with this too, but if you want to nerf the only functional feature of TC, then you must bring back the original invisibility to full effect.

you just cant use it properly.

Really ? Then please teach me!, I am listening!
Here is an example from last night: I cloak around the corner, then walk to a hacking objective and activate it. Next moment a rocket trooper's missile hit my face from half-way accross the map -- which trooper could not possibly see me before cloaking and I was far enough from it, so its not the proximity excuse. So tell me how would you use it "properly" in this situation.

Exactly wrong way you do it.You should make sure enemies see you when cloack is activated. If you cloack when noone see you it is useless. Enemies can 'concentrate' on you even when you are cloacked. but once you cloack, they lose 'concentration' on you, which makes them go and attack other players.
That way, agro,
Besides. that's a good example of why infs are outclassed. You dont know the mechanics of cloak, but you still play good with inf (at least i think so, because you seem to like inf)

nicethugbert wrote...
Being able to dump agro on the non-infiltrators is a huge advantage. And you want a huge damage bonus on top of it? Take a good look at the last 7 letters of the word infiltrator.

great words, palm. Like hacket said, even i couldnt say it in better way.

Modifié par Aifell_Ellion, 04 juin 2012 - 02:00 .

[We Tigers]

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Weapon damage is all the infiltrator has, and maybe a few side powers here and there that are usefull in some situations, but other than that, ZIP. Without that extra weapon damage, infiltrators' only uses would be to revive undetected, and to cap objectives undetected, and would have much less offensive strength, so please, don't nerf the tactical cloak.

Is not it what infiltators are meant to do? I mean revive, cap objectives?
They're not meant to do significant amount of damage and stay hidden at same time!

They have been meant to deal significant burst damage since ME1. Remember Assassinate, and remember how Marksman/Pistol on an infiltrator had the biggest sustained DPS in the whole game? Remember the big cloak damage established in ME2? In the ME universe, they have always been huge damage dealers. When you play a Sentinel, you bring Wrex, Grunt, or James along for killing power. When you play infiltrator, you grab Kaidan, Miranda, or Liara for debuffs and crowd control. I know this is multiplayer, but no, Mass Effect infiltrators are not meant to just revive and capture objectives.

[aletto]

I think tactical cloak should be changed fundamentally. That damage bonus (or rather the time window) can be ridiculously strong.
Cloak should be used to surprise the enemy, hit them where they didn't expect you. My idea? shooting doesn't break cloak immediately, only after a couple of seconds. During this time, the enemies are disoriented and need a bit time to locate you (after you decloaked). In return, the damage bonus should be less.
The time window/damage bonus could be upgraded as usual.

[Aifell_Ellion]

We Tigers wrote...

Aifell_Ellion wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Weapon damage is all the infiltrator has, and maybe a few side powers here and there that are usefull in some situations, but other than that, ZIP. Without that extra weapon damage, infiltrators' only uses would be to revive undetected, and to cap objectives undetected, and would have much less offensive strength, so please, don't nerf the tactical cloak.

Is not it what infiltators are meant to do? I mean revive, cap objectives?
They're not meant to do significant amount of damage and stay hidden at same time!

They have been meant to deal significant burst damage since ME1. Remember Assassinate, and remember how Marksman/Pistol on an infiltrator had the biggest sustained DPS in the whole game? Remember the big cloak damage established in ME2? In the ME universe, they have always been huge damage dealers. When you play a Sentinel, you bring Wrex, Grunt, or James along for killing power. When you play infiltrator, you grab Kaidan, Miranda, or Liara for debuffs and crowd control. I know this is multiplayer, but no, Mass Effect infiltrators are not meant to just revive and capture objectives.

Can you read the word "AND"? 
To what you say, as i remember from me1 infs were not supposed to be able to stay invisble AT ALL!
And as well, i remember they had less hp than soldiers(Me1&2), and were unable to regenerate hp (me1).
So since that, they were buffed by been given same hp and hpreg as soldiers, and tc which makes them invincible.
Besides, i do not want them to be unable to deal to damage, or to decrease the amount of damage at all!
I just want them to be brought back into main mechanics of the game - the heavier weapons you take, the more cooldown of your powers is.

Modifié par Aifell_Ellion, 04 juin 2012 - 02:11 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

A weapon damage bonus while cloaked doesn't even make sense. When you shoot someone between the eyes with a high-powered sniper rifle, does the damage of the shot depend on whether they see you or not? Of course not. A damage bonus really only makes sense for melee.

The class "Infiltrator" should not be about sniping. It should be about, you know, infiltrating. Sneaking past enemy forces and doing damage up close.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 04 juin 2012 - 02:12 .

[Aifell_Ellion]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
A weapon damage bonus while cloaked doesn't even make sense. When you shoot someone between the eyes with a high-powered sniper rifle, does the damage of the shot depend on whether they see you or not? Of course not. A damage bonus really only makes sense for melee.
The class "Infiltrator" should not be about sniping. It should be about, you know, infiltrating. Sneaking past enemy forces and doing damage up close.

Whatsoever. It just should be balanced and fit the main mechanics of the game. Now its just not like that

Modifié par Aifell_Ellion, 04 juin 2012 - 02:14 .

[Fortack]

We Tigers wrote...

Actually, I think that's pretty close to the truth, though not my primary point. Other classes have much better powers than an infiltrator without damage bonuses would have. Cryo + sticky? Sabotage + sticky? GI is pretty good, SI has two good powers, and I haven't played QMI yet, but again--one grenade, one debuff, just like the human. If an infiltrator can't get big damage bonuses and other classes have better powers, than they would be fairly useless as snipers compared to, say, any adept, engineer, etc., which would be dealing the same sniper damage.

Again, I am perfectly fine with TC's damage bonus and I also have no problem to snipe stuff with non-Infiltrators. My Claymore-Black Widow Krogan Sentinel can kill nearly anything with 2-3 BW shots - like Centurions, Nemesis, Phantom, Engineer, Geth Rocket Trooper, Marauders and so on. Just like Infiltrators. Granted, non-Infs have to aim properly and land headshots to get the best results.

The real issue is that Infiltrators can use whatever weapon(s) they like without consequences. My Krogan Sentinel is a worthless power-spammer b/c of the 200% CD penalty he has for using two heavy weapons (he can tank, shoot and throw grenades only). Infiltrators receive no penalties at all for using this setup unlike everyone else in the game.

Furthermore, they can cast powers for free. The SI can cast ED much more frequently than the SE when they both use the same weapon setup which doesnt make any sense. Their other powers are more than a match compared to the other classes. Sabotage, Proxy Mines and ED are among the best powers in the game.

Also, Infiltrators are not designated snipers. They Infiltrate. The point of ME's gameplay system is use weapons & special abilities in tandem, not about sniping with an Infiltrator or setting up BE's with an Adept only. Obviously those things are viable options but not the only ones to play those classes effectively.

[We Tigers]

Aeilon, I don't understand what you're saying. They can stay invisible or do damage. Can't do both.

Cooldown does work as the rest of cooldowns work. It's just a cancellable power, so the effect isn't always absolute with weight. The Vorcha Flamer is actually the only power in the game I know that works similarly. If you think an infiltrator with a Widow should be subject to a 7-second cooldown whether he cancels cloak 1 second in or uses the full 10 second duration, then I simply disagree with you and think that would be a bizarre game mechanic for MP. I think most of the duration abilities--marksman, adrenaline rush, etc.--would be more fun and versatile if you could cancel out of them when appropriate.

Modifié par We Tigers, 04 juin 2012 - 02:19 .

[Havocmasta]

I say lengthen the cooldown, make the damage bonus less than what it is now, but more than AdRush, say, 100% when specced properly, and in turn make Infys much harder to see when under Cloak. The fact that they have that redonk weapon bonus that absolutely OBLITERATES any other weapon damage bonus in the game is not even close to being balanced.

[landylan]

a claymore infiltrator one shots everything....thats totally worthless...they turn INVISIBLE.....thats still gonna be worthless.......they can use an extra power WHILE CLOAKED and that power can share a cooldown with cloak. if you have a heavy loadout you could spam proxy mine around every 3.5 seconds maybe with cloak even if the proxy has like a six second cooldown. you still get double damage. i think one second is a fair damage bonus time frame....you can also spam grenades while cloaked and it wont uncloak you....

[NuclearTech76]

Mozts wrote...

Then its a practical problem. Nerfing cloak or buffing 59 powers, not counting passives...I'm inclined to think nerf is easier.

1 second increase in minimal CD for cloak would be a good.

They do balance changes weekly. Start bringing other classes up to par with infiltrators. The vast majority of players can't reach full extraction on Gold. Why make it more impossible by nerfing the most viable Gold class?

[Fortack]

@ We Tigers,

They can easily increase the min TC CD from 3 to like 5-6 seconds so Infiltrators cannot stay invisible all time. I am not suggesting to increase its CD to 10 or more seconds which would indeed make it near useless. As it is it's just way too fast. You can even add weight by giving a lightly equipped Inf a min 3 sec CD and one with heavy weapons the 5-6 sec. That would make weight something to consider which it already is for everyone else.

The free casting ability should be removed too so Infiltrators have to chose (again, like everyone else) whether they want to cast ED or TC. An SE cannot setup a decoy and hit someone with ED at the same time, I see no reason why the Infiltrator should be able to do that with Cloak.

Modifié par Fortack, 04 juin 2012 - 02:25 .

[NuclearTech76]

landylan wrote...

a claymore infiltrator one shots everything....thats totally worthless...they turn INVISIBLE.....thats still gonna be worthless.......they can use an extra power WHILE CLOAKED and that power can share a cooldown with cloak. if you have a heavy loadout you could spam proxy mine around every 3.5 seconds maybe with cloak even if the proxy has like a six second cooldown. you still get double damage. i think one second is a fair damage bonus time frame....you can also spam grenades while cloaked and it wont uncloak you....

Are you going to be the player who is cussing me because I can't revive you because my CD is too long?

[Kronner]

Fortack wrote...

They can easily increase the min TC CD from 3 to like 5-6 seconds so Infiltrators cannot stay invisible all time. I am not suggesting to increase its CD to 10 or more seconds which would indeed make it near useless. As it is it's just way too fast. You can even add weight by giving a lightly equipped Inf a min 3 sec CD and one with heavy weapons the 5-6 sec. That would make weight something to consider which it already is for everyone else.

All this would do is **** up weapons like Black Widow, Javelin, Widow, Claymore on Infiltrators. Nothing else.
And yea, I am not reviving someone if that means I am gonna be exposed for 6 seconds with no defense whatsoever.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[landylan]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Mozts wrote...

Then its a practical problem. Nerfing cloak or buffing 59 powers, not counting passives...I'm inclined to think nerf is easier.

1 second increase in minimal CD for cloak would be a good.

They do balance changes weekly. Start bringing other classes up to par with infiltrators. The vast majority of players can't reach full extraction on Gold. Why make it more impossible by nerfing the most viable Gold class?

gold is supposed to be hard. if they cant do it they should keep trying and fail to get better.....or just play silver

[BYC]

I've been advocating reducing damage on sniper rifles for Tactical Cloak, but adding head shots back in.

I think that solves a lot of problems, although I think Krysae will still get nerfed.

[Fortack]

Kronner wrote...

All this would do is **** up weapons like Black Widow, Javelin, Widow, Claymore on Infiltrators. Nothing else.

That's the problem of the crappy weight vs cooldown system and has nothing to do with the Infiltrator or Cloak.

[landylan]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

landylan wrote...

a claymore infiltrator one shots everything....thats totally worthless...they turn INVISIBLE.....thats still gonna be worthless.......they can use an extra power WHILE CLOAKED and that power can share a cooldown with cloak. if you have a heavy loadout you could spam proxy mine around every 3.5 seconds maybe with cloak even if the proxy has like a six second cooldown. you still get double damage. i think one second is a fair damage bonus time frame....you can also spam grenades while cloaked and it wont uncloak you....

Are you going to be the player who is cussing me because I can't revive you because my CD is too long?

what are you talking about? ive not said anything about changing the cooldown speed

[Kronner]

Fortack wrote...

Kronner wrote...

All this would do is **** up weapons like Black Widow, Javelin, Widow, Claymore on Infiltrators. Nothing else.

That's the problem of the crappy weight vs cooldown system and has nothing to do with the Infiltrator or Cloak.

Doesn't change the fact that doubling the minimal Cloak cooldown if you are using a heavy weapon would cripple those builds.