63 réponses à ce sujet

[dunre646]

so mass relay do work in pairs? a friend was telling me they don't have be pairs

[wantedman dan]

dunre646 wrote...

so mass relay do work in pairs? a friend was telling me they don't have be pairs

Well, I mean, they don't have to.

But it'd be a looooooooong trip back without one to send you there.

[TheDeadGodsDream]

Maybe the collector base is a relay?

[djspectre]

wantedman dan wrote...

djspectre wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

The relays can only push, not pull. 

That's not necessarily true, though.

The Omega-4 relay pulled the Normandy back from the Suicide Mission, unless there was some invisible mass relay that we all were unaware of.

This does bring up a valid point. when the normandy reaches the galactic core, we see everything through the cockpit of the normandy, not from outside of it (like in the battle of the citadel and priorty earth) so we have no idea if there is a twin omega-4-type relay in the galactic core from which to push the normany back to Omega. 

Though, still the prospect of another Citadel or intra-galactic transport system is pretty neat. 

We do, however, see the rear-end of the Normandy as it propels itself back to the Omega Nebula.

that could simply be it jumping to FTL to reach the relay that we didn't see earlier. 

[wantedman dan]

djspectre wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

djspectre wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

The relays can only push, not pull. 

That's not necessarily true, though.

The Omega-4 relay pulled the Normandy back from the Suicide Mission, unless there was some invisible mass relay that we all were unaware of.

This does bring up a valid point. when the normandy reaches the galactic core, we see everything through the cockpit of the normandy, not from outside of it (like in the battle of the citadel and priorty earth) so we have no idea if there is a twin omega-4-type relay in the galactic core from which to push the normany back to Omega. 

Though, still the prospect of another Citadel or intra-galactic transport system is pretty neat. 

We do, however, see the rear-end of the Normandy as it propels itself back to the Omega Nebula.

that could simply be it jumping to FTL to reach the relay that we didn't see earlier. 

Could be but ehhhhhhh

[Leafs43]

 I made this assumption 4 days ago:

http://social.biowar.../index/12321201 

[Leafs43]

dunre646 wrote...

so mass relay do work in pairs? a friend was telling me they don't have be pairs

No they don't need pairs.


But the only way it would work is if the citadel opened up a gate into dark space, which isn't mentioned anywhere.


The way I think it works is the citadel is like a paired mass relay but is capable of doing the entire reaper fleet in 1 shot due to it's size.

[djspectre]

dunre646 wrote...

so mass relay do work in pairs? a friend was telling me they don't have be pairs

I think what your friend meant was that some are bi-directional only -- paired with only a single other relay. While others are omni-directional, meaning they are paired with more than one. The main difference between them is that the ones that only have a single twin all for further distances of mass-free corridors to exist, while the omni-directional ones typically sacrifice range/distance for the ability to communicate with more than just a single other relay. 

The fact that the Citadel has to have at LEAST ONE corresponding relay of similar size and shape on the other end, means there has to be another Citadel-type relay just sitting in dark space. Further, while Shepard destroyed this one then it's twin could very well be isolated and cut off. 

There is also the possibility that the Citadel-class relays are omni-directional, but its additional 'pairs' are just unmapped. But again, this is unknown despite the fact that since ME1 it's been known that the Citadel was a dormant relay. (which always surprised me that no one investigated the commands Saren was inputting to activate the relay abilities of the citadel after ME1)

[Mims]

I actually believe there is mention that they were considering a 'dark' citadel. I can't remember where though, maybe somewhere in the art books. I don't think they gave the idea much more thought though, or it evolved into the collector base/omega.

Modifié par Mims, 04 juin 2012 - 05:18 .

[djspectre]

wantedman dan wrote...

djspectre wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

djspectre wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

The relays can only push, not pull. 

That's not necessarily true, though.

The Omega-4 relay pulled the Normandy back from the Suicide Mission, unless there was some invisible mass relay that we all were unaware of.

This does bring up a valid point. when the normandy reaches the galactic core, we see everything through the cockpit of the normandy, not from outside of it (like in the battle of the citadel and priorty earth) so we have no idea if there is a twin omega-4-type relay in the galactic core from which to push the normany back to Omega. 

Though, still the prospect of another Citadel or intra-galactic transport system is pretty neat. 

We do, however, see the rear-end of the Normandy as it propels itself back to the Omega Nebula.

that could simply be it jumping to FTL to reach the relay that we didn't see earlier. 

Could be but ehhhhhhh

consider the opening cinematic to ME1 when we first meet our shepard and joker. the normandy FTL's out to the Arcturus relay which was out of visual range till the cinematic gave us a trailing shot of the normandy on approach for relay tranist.

[Rustedness]

I had assumed that if there was a "long-lost reaper off switch" *cough*, then it would be located in such a place.

Still, seeing a twisted mirror version of the citadel would be nifty. Maybe see some husks from earlier cycles tending the place.

[djspectre]

Rustedness wrote...

I had assumed that if there was a "long-lost reaper off switch" *cough*, then it would be located in such a place.

Still, seeing a twisted mirror version of the citadel would be nifty. Maybe see some husks from earlier cycles tending the place.

This I would love.

Though dark space isn't Bizzaro realm or a mirror universe. Dark space is just simply the gap between galaxies that is typically star-less and is rumored to be filled with black holes formed by galaxies that have long since collapsed into their galactic cores. 

[Leonia]

The Black Citadel where the Maker awaits.

[JPN17]

djspectre wrote...

Upon re-reading the codex entries, the events of mass effect 1 and the mass effect wiki entry on the citadel, I've concluded that there is another Citadel-class space station in dark space.

Since mass relays only connect to other mass relays, which all resemble each other, it's safe to assume that there is another Citadel to be the matching twin of the current one.

Further, since it's unknown exactly how the Citadel we know was transported to Earth (was it dragged to an existing relay, could an existing relay even transport something that big, can the citadel transport itself), it's safe to assume that the feat could be duplicated with the twin citadel in dark space.

Why does this matter?

Because it leaves open a great opportunity for a really unique DLC or for a continuation of the franchise in some form. 

Either way, I think the prospect of it existing is a fascinating one. 

Even if there was a citadel, identical to the one that was destroyed (and that's iffy) I'm not sure what good it would do. It took the reapers between months and years to reach the galaxy, depending on when they started the journey (I've seen several interpretations on that). There's no planets to discharge drive cores in dark space. There's no fuel or food. And even if you could solve those issues, how would you find it. Also how would you navigate in dark space? It's a nice idea, but I don't see any way this could happen without creating a bunch more retcons and plot holes.

[Isichar]

VERY cool idea

[Cyneburh]

Saw this idea a couple years ago and loved it. I thought perhaps part of the "dark" Citadel would be a museum housing the relics of all the harvested races. ...I think I got that idea from Childhood's End where the Overlords have apparently been keeping such museums of the ascended races they've assisted.  The massive amount of artifacts from all the harvested races would have been something super cool to see and would have really drove the point home yet again that Shepard was (hopefully) going to succeed where so many had failed for so long.  

Anyhoo, would've been an awesome idea to see implemented.

Modifié par Cyneburh, 04 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[Thornne]

That could be cool. The Crucible allows you to reverse the polarity on the Citadel relay, and shoot yourself to the Reaper's control center Citadel in dark space.

And then there is a big red button that says "Off"!

[Deathcall]

I have been arguing this particular subject with Scimal in the "Admiral the Crucible is useless" thread for days...

I say it's not likely, he says it's required or the Reapers are complete fools...

Here are my arguements: (copy pasted relevant portions of my last post... to tired to write it again)

Okay, lets assume the Reapers have a twin to the Citadel out there. Why  do they need the Keepers to activate the  relay at the Citadel for their  twin to work? Why design it that way? Why not just a simple relay mechanic with an IFF to prevent races from jumping to their position while they hibernate?

Lets compare your question and mine and figure out which possibility makes the Reapers look more like fools.

If the Reapers have no "twin" it could be to a variety of unknown factors. They may simply not have the expertise to build it. After all, both the Citadel and the Relays are built from materials even the Reapers don't  use. Perhaps they considered it would be too much of a liability, putting a back door right to their "nest" would mean that if some race 
figured out the true nature of the Citadel they could be ambushed  themselves. Maybe they don't even need it, since it takes them only a couple months or a handful of years to get back to the galaxy at FTL.

The Citadel is precious because it was designed to control the relay network and function as the seat of galactic goverment and economy for the cycle's dominant races. Ambushing it gives the advantage to the Reapers at the start of each process of extinction. Not ambushing it (as in our cycle) deterrs their plans, but not by much, they still have
overwhelming numbers and more advanced technology.

If the Reapers have a Citadel "twin" in darkspace. Why does it work so differently to  other relays? The Protheans on Ilos managed to reprogram the Keepers so they'd disregard the signal given by the Vanguard forces instructing
them to open the relay... Why would they make it so this entire process was required? Why not just have the Vanguard use QEC or whatever they use to wake them up and use the Citadel as if it were any other relay? Why "lock" themselves out? In any case, why install the control for the relay network in the Citadel and not the much more innaccesible twin in darkspace?

So which one makes the Reapers seem more incompetent?

Modifié par Deathcall, 04 juin 2012 - 06:54 .

[Aiyie]

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

The relays can only push, not pull. 

That's not necessarily true, though.

The Omega-4 relay pulled the Normandy back from the Suicide Mission, unless there was some invisible mass relay that we all were unaware of.

That was one thing that got me about ME2. It was never explained how the Normandy got back. It's quite possible that the Omega-4 links to another relay, and we never saw it.

This is true, however is contradicted by the notion that, every time we choose to enter a new system, we are--in every game--greeted by the familiar scene of entering of a new mass relay.

At the end of the suicide mission, the Normandy simply takes off.

id say that that makes it even more likely that there was a relay at the collector base.

we've been presented with enough evidence that a relay is required for travel between star clusters that we don't need to be directly shown the relay on the collector base side of the Omega-4 relay to believe that there is one there.

im all for questioning things, but seriously, there comes a point where previous evidence renders having to be directly shown something is not necessary for understanding and acceptance.

[Aiyie]

dunre646 wrote...

so mass relay do work in pairs? a friend was telling me they don't have be pairs

from the ME wiki:
"Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free "corridor" of
space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across
enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL
speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount
of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the
approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the
corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space.
There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary
relays can propel a ship thousands of light years but only link to one
other relay, its "partner". Secondary relays can link to any other relay
over shorter distances, only a few hundred light years."

from the in-game codex:

"Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often
from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed
one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary
relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few
hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay
can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range."

[djspectre]

Deathcall wrote...

I have been arguing this particular subject with Scimal in the "Admiral the Crucible is useless" thread for days...

I say it's not likely, he says it's required or the Reapers are complete fools...

Here are my arguements: (copy pasted relevant portions of my last post... to tired to write it again)

Okay, lets assume the Reapers have a twin to the Citadel out there. Why  do they need the Keepers to activate the  relay at the Citadel for their  twin to work? Why design it that way? Why not just a simple relay mechanic with an IFF to prevent races from jumping to their position while they hibernate?

Lets compare your question and mine and figure out which possibility makes the Reapers look more like fools.

If the Reapers have no "twin" it could be to a variety of unknown factors. They may simply not have the expertise to build it. After all, both the Citadel and the Relays are built from materials even the Reapers don't  use. Perhaps they considered it would be too much of a liability, putting a back door right to their "nest" would mean that if some race 
figured out the true nature of the Citadel they could be ambushed  themselves. Maybe they don't even need it, since it takes them only a couple months or a handful of years to get back to the galaxy at FTL.

The Citadel is precious because it was designed to control the relay network and function as the seat of galactic goverment and economy for the cycle's dominant races. Ambushing it gives the advantage to the Reapers at the start of each process of extinction. Not ambushing it (as in our cycle) deterrs their plans, but not by much, they still have
overwhelming numbers and more advanced technology.

If the Reapers have a Citadel "twin" in darkspace. Why does it work so differently to  other relays? The Protheans on Ilos managed to reprogram the Keepers so they'd disregard the signal given by the Vanguard forces instructing
them to open the relay... Why would they make it so this entire process was required? Why not just have the Vanguard use QEC or whatever they use to wake them up and use the Citadel as if it were any other relay? Why "lock" themselves out? In any case, why install the control for the relay network in the Citadel and not the much more innaccesible twin in darkspace?

So which one makes the Reapers seem more incompetent?

While it might make them seem incompetent, it also fits into the already established workings of relay technology. A relay must be 'unlocked' before it can be used. Even then, once one end is unlocked, we don't need to 'unlock' the relay on the destination-side. The turians did this when they encountered the rachni...they unlocked a relay and traveled through only to be greeted by rachni that could now travel between the two without issue. 

The fact that the citadel we know of was 'locked' and required a signal from the Keepers to 'unlock', only means that the Reapers locked it when they left. 

Not even the reapers can use a relay that is locked, thus the Keepers were needed to unlock it (since the partner citadel in dark space was likely already unlocked for use).

As to the need to discharge drive cores, etc, yes, that is the point of storing the counterpart citadel in dark space:" organics can explore there. Even if organics did discover the relay's secret of the citadel, they would die due to drive core overload, lack of food or water, things that the Reapers dont need to do (though I do wonder how they discharge THEIR drive cores).

All this points to the fact that there STILL could be a counterpart to the citadel sitting out in dark space.

[EricHVela]

Not all relays are 1-to-1. While the omnidirectional relays are short-range, it doesn't mean the Citadel, the largest relay to exist, cannot be omnidirectional, too. At the very least, it can be multi-directional that can focus (as they describe the Catalyst) the mass effect to where the Reapers were waiting.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 02:43 .

[djspectre]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Not all relays are 1-to-1. While the omnidirectional relays are short-range, it doesn't mean the Citadel, the largest relay to exist, cannot be omnidirectional, too. At the very least, it can be multi-directional that can focus (as they describe the Catalyst) the mass effect to where the Reapers were waiting.

I've stated multiple times that I know not all relays are 1-to-1. It's also known that the Citadel is the hub to which control of the relay system belongs. However, the Citadel, even in the end of ME3 still aims for the nearest relay (Charon relay) to send out the final signal. 

This still doesn't mean that there isn't a twin in dark space, it just means there might be even more we don't know about the citadel. 

[gisle]

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

The relays can only push, not pull. 

That's not necessarily true, though.

The Omega-4 relay pulled the Normandy back from the Suicide Mission, unless there was some invisible mass relay that we all were unaware of.

That was one thing that got me about ME2. It was never explained how the Normandy got back. It's quite possible that the Omega-4 links to another relay, and we never saw it.

This is true, however is contradicted by the notion that, every time we choose to enter a new system, we are--in every game--greeted by the familiar scene of entering of a new mass relay.

At the end of the suicide mission, the Normandy simply takes off.

According to one of the space combat codices, larger ships can be popped out 100s of kilometers away, even thousands or millions for very high masses. Reign Tsumiraki might be right.

If it's the same Arcturus as the star having that name in the IRL time and age, the relay jump in Priority:Earth is very short compared to the one leading from Omega nebula to the galactic core.

The end of the SM seem to be FTL, which seems like a dumb idea in the galactic core, but I'll trust Joker and EDI knows what the hell they're doing.

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 04 juin 2012 - 03:15 .