200 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

malakim2099 wrote...

Yup, because people that feed Alliance Marines to thresher maws and execute generals looking into them definitely have the most altruistic goals in mind!

(That happened in the FIRST game, by the way. Really, Cerberus has always been scum, it's just they painted a "nice" face on them so you'd have to work with them in ME2.)

EDIT: And actually, another missed opportunity from ME3. Toombs. Unless I somehow blanked out on it, I didn't see him there.

The turians had a bomb on Tuchanka, the salarians perform experiments on live yahg to use them to expand their influence and the asari had been secretly extracting information from a Beacon to keep themselves ahead of the other species while creating laws that punish anyone who does the same.
Yes, Cerberus has done attrocious things but that is what it takes to prosper in the galactic civilization

[Ihatebadgames]

No.

[Icesong]

No. In ME2 I chose every option and action I could to be against Cerberus. But in ME3 you get roped into having believed in Cerberus. Some scenes handle it better than others, such as the VS one on Mars. But others, like the Cronos Station scene and the initial dialogue with Jack, are just awful. This actually started in LotSB like a few other things I dislike as well.

[lordhugorune]

Descy_ wrote...

Anyone who's played ME1 cannot say they think Cerberus was good.

I remember the first time I played ME1, I didn't do the side missions, just went through the story. Didn't really know a thing about Cerberus when I started ME2, as a result, and I bought into a lot of what TIM said. An enemy of my enemy is my friend, plus they gave me a life and a damn good ship, what could be wrong with that? I even gave him a pass for Pragia, after all he had been kept in the dark about a lot of what was going on there.

Obviously I've learnt a lot since then, both from playing ME1 through properly, and ME3 of course.

How do I judge Cerberus now? Since it's diverse cells with different goals, linked only by the head, you have to judge the Illusive Man. In the sense that he always put humanity first, he could be seen as a noble figure who did everything in an attempt to secure a better future for humanity than Reaper fodder. But he did many evil things to achieve that. In a way it is like the genophage - is a noble end - keeping the galaxy safe from war - okay when it is justified by innumerable atrocities?

[thesnake777]

MisterJB wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...

Yup, because people that feed Alliance Marines to thresher maws and execute generals looking into them definitely have the most altruistic goals in mind!

(That happened in the FIRST game, by the way. Really, Cerberus has always been scum, it's just they painted a "nice" face on them so you'd have to work with them in ME2.)

EDIT: And actually, another missed opportunity from ME3. Toombs. Unless I somehow blanked out on it, I didn't see him there.

The turians had a bomb on Tuchanka, the salarians perform experiments on live yahg to use them to expand their influence and the asari had been secretly extracting information from a Beacon to keep themselves ahead of the other species while creating laws that punish anyone who does the same.
Yes, Cerberus has done attrocious things but that is what it takes to prosper in the galactic civilization

Dont forget that these wonderful groups of people(i'm sure the asari approved) you mentioned also created the Genophadge...they killed millions of Krogan children as a result....

[ardias89]

There was enough proof in ME1 of that organisations sick view on everybody else for me to distrust TIM.

[MisterJB]

The Council has a secret police with a mandate to do ANYTHING; so long as they don't get caught, of course; to keep turians, salarians and asari in power but no one says anything against the Spectres.
But Cerberus kills an Admiral to protect a project that could save thousands of our soldier's lives and suddenly they are monsters!

[Lamepro]

The sad part is Illusive man was following in the same footsteps as Saren,

[EricHVela]

It's no wonder that this dog turned on us.

Cerberus was a team with the original goal of protecting the Charon relay from alien dangers during the First Contact wars with an alien race. (Get it? Charon? Cerberus? I guess that makes the Sol system Hades. Yet, aren't there already two Hades clusters out there?)

Like many gov organizations, it's very difficult to shut down people on gov payroll. Eventually, Cerb proved more trouble than they were worth after the threat was gone, but enter entrepreneurs that believed that the Price of Freedom was Eternal Vigilance.

Cerberus was a hasty decision that came back to bite Humanity.

[Sergeant Dre]

You would have to be blind to think they were good guys. (This is coming from a pro-Cerberus guy) But to label them as completely bad is irrational. 

What Military or military themed group hasn't tried what Cerberus had? I will bet my life on it that the Alliance has tried just the same. 

It is the easiest to compare Cerberus and the Salarians. Salarians only look out for themselves. They uplifted the Krogan because of the Rachni of course but also because the Salarians believed they could be used as guards or even a tool to lift themselves higher in the Council. They stubbornly share tech and the Dalatrass had a natural "Every race is inferior to ours" If she didn't believe that then why didn't she give us the help without making us turn on the Krogan. The Asari share this to because the Turians were the only ones in a position not to help but I am going off topic.

Cerberus is labeled as the bad guys because in ME3 they are portrayed as them. TIM is indoctrinated. Which is a shame because I found him a interesting character. However in ME2, they are protrayed as the good guys but players dislike them from the first game. Players see them as the bad guys, why? Because of the experiments and such they did in ME. They were the only group shown to do this and filling the role as a Alliance soldier these things are seen as unspeakable acts. But wasn't Cerberus a Alliance Black-Op? Or so some people believe. If they are, the Alliance is committing these acts and we can blame no one but the Alliance who can then deny it. 

So I'm the end, the only true evidence people have to say they are bad is the fact they are fighting you inE3.

Sorry for any mistakes, typed this all up on a iPhone

[Grimwick]

No.

In fact, their original intentions cannot be seen as very 'noble' at all - human supremacy and domination, whatever the cost to other species.

An organisation that exists only to better certain peoples but deliberately and directly discriminates others? No that isn't good by a long shot.

[flanny]

I never thought they were good, though i didn't think they were evil either. i did have respect for them in ME2, they were the only group who believed Shepard and while i never agreed with them, you could see through your dealings with the council that humanity was often disliked.

You can't blame them for getting indoctrinated as it was hardly their fault. I was expecting you to have the option in ME3 to join your alliance against the reapers

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...

No.

In fact, their original intentions cannot be seen as very 'noble' at all - human supremacy and domination, whatever the cost to other species.

An organisation that exists only to better certain peoples but deliberately and directly discriminates others? No that isn't good by a long shot.

Council, Alliance, STG, Asari Commandos, Turian Empire, Batarian Hegemony and pretty much any government that has ever existed or will ever exist, both in the ME universe and real world.
All governments will do anything to improve their power and standing, regardless of the consequences to people other than its citizens.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

No.

In fact, their original intentions cannot be seen as very 'noble' at all - human supremacy and domination, whatever the cost to other species.

An organisation that exists only to better certain peoples but deliberately and directly discriminates others? No that isn't good by a long shot.

Council, Alliance, STG, Asari Commandos, Turian Empire, Batarian Hegemony and pretty much any government that has ever existed or will ever exist, both in the ME universe and real world.
All governments will do anything to improve their power and standing, regardless of the consequences to people other than its citizens.

Does that make it 'good'?

Of course it doesn't. Saying that other people do it too doesn't justify it.

Also would like to point out that Cerberus is seen as a terrorist splinter group, even by the Alliance. It's methods/ethics are far more extreme than the organisations you listed (bar the hegemony maybe).

[Lord Goose]

turians had a bomb on Tuchanka, the salarians
perform experiments on live yahg to use them to
expand their influence and the asari had been
secretly extracting information from a Beacon to
keep themselves ahead of the other species while
creating laws that punish anyone who does the same

But Cerberus was doing all their experiments... on their own people. Not that I do think that bombing Tuchanka or modifying genophage was ethical solutions. But at very least, it wasn't done on their own people.

[Sousabird]

Good Idea in Theory ME2 I would have signed up to fight collectors, better then the alliance with their thumbs up their ass

[Applepie_Svk]

I never doubt that Cerberus doing everything for purpose but with ME2 they get some good credits because they bring you back after everything what have you done, as was said that they could use all these bilions for private army instead of ressurection of one soldier.

They did it on purpose, the Sheppard represent evil/good what´s humanity can offer (in case of evil - humanity first behavior it´s even bonus for them to gain trust of Sheppard) (in case of Paragon they brinb back more hero than faithful servant).
I must agree that in ME2 they were maybe wicked but not so much as in ME3, they gave you resources to put down Collectors and what was better they never questioned you as did Aliance and Council - short cut they believed your version.

In ME1 and ME2 behavior of Council and Aliance was more dangerous, their ignorance and defiance the truth was worse than Cerberus´s acts from ME1 even if their acts were disgusting.
In ME3 I can´t blame that other species try to take care about themself - even humanity would do same than go on blind to someone homeworld, mainly after start of war -
Hegemony no more
Arcturus no more
Earth conquered
Palaven assault
Thessia assault

[incinerator950]

Comparing to in game examples before ME3, during ME2, after ME2, or during ME3? Or are we trying to use our real world illusion of democracies and socialist-republic empires that are already corrupt and slowly falling apart?

In all seriousness, they went from Rogue Black Ops faction, to Vigilantes helping the helpless with a bad past, to Indoctrinated Super Soldier Comic Book Villains only the main hero can brush aside like an Ultramarine does to Honsou's Iron Warriors. It's amazing the leap of logic they threw around.

In the scope of ME though, they had a legitimate but hard to justify response to things. Some cases it really was a large bad call, other cases the Illusive Man's failure to reprimand and control his own resources. Compared to the Asari tech dominance, the Salarian's blatant disregard for safety and Biological Warfare, and the Turian Empire being a legitamate Empire falling short of having slave races, you can only fault Cerberus for terrorist activities when they do them.

I forget what Dean the Young said about them. Its not necessarily a necessary Evil, but their actions did improve weapons capacity, jumpstart human Biotic training, and resurrected Shepard.

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
Does that make it 'good'?

Of course it doesn't. Saying that other people do it too doesn't justify it.

It doesn't make it good or bad. It's life.
When other people stop being selfish, so will I.

Also would like to point out that Cerberus is seen as a terrorist splinter group, even by the Alliance. It's methods/ethics are far more extreme than the organisations you listed (bar the hegemony maybe).

Cerberus is seen as a terrorist group because they want things the Council doesn't want; that is, more for power for humans. And the Alliance is just so very happy to bend over to the alien dictators.
Far more extreme? Let's see, Cerberus has experimented on live subjects. STG has done that too, yahg.
Cerberus has commited assassinations but I don't remember them ever detonating bombs in civilian areas like two Spectres have done.
Cerberus never infected an entire species with a sterility plague or planted a doomsday bomb on their planet. Cerberus has also never extablished a law that prohibited other races from doing what you do in secret.

Anything Cerberus ever did, the aliens did it first and worse.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 juin 2012 - 02:35 .

[MisterJB]

Lord Goose wrote...
But Cerberus was doing all their experiments... on their own people. Not that I do think that bombing Tuchanka or modifying genophage was ethical solutions. But at very least, it wasn't done on their own people.

Not all. For instance, Cerberus once kidnapped asari and experimented on them to discover a way of countering biotics.
They then used the resulting drug on an Asari Matriarch that supported Biotic Supremacy and who lost all respect of her followers when her biotics failed.
I also remember them assassinating some turian politic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 juin 2012 - 02:38 .

[Applepie_Svk]

MisterJB wrote...


Cerberus is seen as a terrorist group because they want things the Council doesn't want; that is, more for power for humans. And the Alliance is just so very happy to bend over to the alien dictators.
Far more extreme? Let's see, Cerberus has experimented on live subjects. STG has done that too, yahg.
Cerberus has commited assassinations but I don't remember them ever detonating bombs in civilian areas like two Spectres have done.
Cerberus never infected an entire species with a sterility plague or planted a doomsday bomb on their planet. Cerberus has also never extablished a law that prohibited other races from doing what you do in secret.

Anything Cerberus ever did, the aliens did it first and worse.

Yep good points, but still it doesn´t make Cerberus better ,,, 

[Tov01]

I thought that TIM thought he was good, but his actions were evil and extremist, and I never trusted Cerberus for a minute. Not after ME1.

[Zardoc]

MisterJB wrote...

Far more extreme? Let's see, Cerberus has experimented on live subjects. STG has done that too, yahg.
Cerberus has commited assassinations but I don't remember them ever detonating bombs in civilian areas like two Spectres have done.
Cerberus never infected an entire species with a sterility plague or planted a doomsday bomb on their planet. Cerberus has also never extablished a law that prohibited other races from doing what you do in secret.

Anything Cerberus ever did, the aliens did it first and worse.

Those two "Spectres" were both rogue. The genophage and the doomsday bomb were necessary, otherwise the krogan would've won the war. And Cerberus never needed to establish a law to prohibit others from doing what they are doing because they operate outside the law and are a terrorist group. Yeah, all governments in the ME universe have some skeletons in their closets, that doesn't however give Cerberus permission to do things just as bad or even worse. And there is one big difference between those two groups. Cerberus is completely outside the Systems Alliance and outside the law. They have NOBODY to control them in any way.




@OP: No, I nver trusted Cerberus. Their actions in ME1 and 2 didn't help matters. Neither did their weak excuses.

Modifié par Zardoc, 04 juin 2012 - 02:49 .

[Lord Goose]

Not all. For instance, Cerberus once kidnapped asari
and experimented on them to discover a way of
countering biotics.
They then used the resulting drug on an Asari
Matriarch that supported Biotic Supremacy and who
lost all respect of her followers when her biotics failed. I also remember them assassinating some turian
politic.

My point was what salarians and turians were brutal to their enemies. Krogan started rebellions and wiped out entire turian clonies, so its at least understandable, why turians were remorseless. I actually think that using genophage (not modifying it) was more or less acceptable solution. At least it was better than letting krogans win or killing all of them.
Cerberus in turn willingly uses their own people to achieve some shady goals. And it doesn't matter if they also were commiting crimes against aliens.

I'm pretty sure that integration was logical result of their experiments on husks and creepers from first game. It was TIM goal to begin with.

[IoCaster]

masseffect420 wrote...

Ok, no I always hated Tim!

I dislike TIM for a very specific reason. He doesn't belong in the setting and universe that was established in ME. I suppose if he had been sitting in a chair fondling a big, fat white cat on his lap it would have been too obvious, but that's the impression I came away with.

I also disliked how they repurposed Cerberus in ME2 and ME3.

IoCaster posted:

I'm curious about how and why Cerberus/TIM became such a big focus in both ME2 & ME3. Do you know if that was a part of the original outline for the trilogy and intended from the very beginning?


Juc66 posted:

Wasn't intended from the beginning. Cerberus was originally just a throw-away bad guy group that we could use to give shepard an excuse to go to uncharted worlds and do various things. It kinda just evolved from that.

Cerberus is transformed from a "throw-away bad guy group" (ME) to an organization (ME2) with the resources to fund space stations, ships, advanced research outposts on numerous planets, the Lazarus project and a larger, updated version of the Normandy. In ME3 they're portrayed as a galactic powerhouse capable of fielding a private army of huskified soldiers and a fleet of warships and fighters. As if that wasn't enough they also threw in disco Kai Leng and his squad of spastic space ninjas.

My opinion is that the shift in tone, style and focus from ME to the sequels sent the story on an upward trajectory of increasing absurdity. They had to dumb down the story, Council, Alliance, Shepard and just about the whole galactic community so that they could shoehorn in TIM and the newly revised Cerberus. Now I had fun playing the games and that's a crucial component, but IMO the inclusion of TIM and Cerberus derailed the original story arc that was started in ME. It was almost inevitable that ME3 wouldn't be able to stitch all of the disparate pieces of plot together into a coherent narrative so it's not really surprising that some fans prefer to rely on head canon or IT to make sense of it all.