200 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Zardoc wrote...
Those two "Spectres" were both rogue.

No. Saren destroyed the refinery before he found Sovereign and Tela Vasir repeatedly spoke of how she hadn't betrayed the Council.

The genophage and the doomsday bomb were necessary, otherwise the krogan would've won the war.

The genophage was, the bomb was planted after the war was over as a precaution. Both were genocidal in nature.
What Cerberus does is also necessary, otherwise humanity would forever be one of the "inferior species".

And Cerberus never needed to establish a law to prohibit others from doing what they are doing because they operate outside the law and are a terrorist group.

It was merely an example of the villainy of the asari.

Yeah, all governments in the ME universe have some skeletons in their closets, that doesn't however give Cerberus permission to do things just as bad or even worse.

To do anything else would be naive. When politics stop being such a cutthroath business, then maybe humanity can stop sharpening knifes. Until then...the salarian want yahg shocktroops? Maybe we should use Project Overlord to deploy geth to the human colonies closest to salarian territory or maybe we should just assassinate the scientists responsible for their project.

And there is one big difference between those two groups. Cerberus is completely outside the Systems Alliance and outside the law. They have NOBODY to control them in any way.

And? The asari make laws that suit their purposes, who controls that?  Yahgs on human soil and nothing to tie it to the salarians, who controlled them?

[Lord Goose]

No matter what other goverments have done, I don't think that they were experimenting on their own people. I do not advocate them. Being brutal to not your people is bad enough , but having no mercy for your own...

[Rick Lewis]

I'm gonna be a HUGE dork and quote Star Trek here.

"We can admire him and despise him at the same time."

I agree with Cerberus goals but not their methods. Shame their leadership went off the deep end.

[Taboo]

Cerberus being equal to the other races "special forces" doesn't make them right.

They are nothing more than an extremist organization vying for a place for humanity.

They are nothing more and nothing less.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

 Is it possible to be so stupid that it becomes morally wrong?  Because that's what Cerberus feels like.  Their entire plan for galactic conquest is to copy the plot of Alien:  Resurrection over and over again.

[xsdob]

No, their methods invalidated their goals and made them evil in my eyes.

[Taboo]

Oh God.

Alien Resurrection.

The awfulness.

Now that I think about it.

BLEUGH.

[EricHVela]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus being equal to the other races "special forces" doesn't make them right.

They are nothing more than an extremist organization vying for a place for humanity.

They are nothing more and nothing less.

Are? Yes.

Always were? Perhaps not.

They were the reaction to First Contact that started the First Contact Wars. An alien race just, out-of-the-blue, attacked Humans (from their perspective). Cerberus was the hasty response to that. It was the answer to a situation that both sides misunderstood.

It became a platform for those that felt Humanity needed to be eternally vigilant against aliens and continued to spiral out of control. When the Alliance tried to get rid of it, entrepreneurs stepped up and continued it outside of Alliance control.

Their origins are a grey area, IMHO. Humanity panicked. Cerberus was born.

Their evolution is less grey, IMHO. They become extremists, but I highly doubt that was the Alliance's intent.

(PS. Alien Ressurrection does not exist. That's just a myth.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 03:23 .

[Taboo]

The Illusive Man.....really didn't help things.

The only reason I tolerate him in the second game is because he really is correct. Someone did have to intervene with the Collectors.

However, once that is over, any "business" between he and my Shepard is over.

[General User]

When you force people to live in the jungle, don't be surprised when they start acting like beasts.

Cerberus' real failing is that, instead of trying to change the rules, they simply started playing the Council's game.

[Persephone]

In ME1? No.

In ME2? With the foreshadowing of events in ME3, even TIM being indoctrinated? No. Not good. Interesting though.

In ME3....I thought it was tragic. But "good"? No.

[Tankcommander]

Jassu1979 wrote...

In ME1, they were cheap villains.

In ME2, they became more complex, following a "the end justifies the means"-approach that *almost* gave them anti-hero status.

In ME3, they went back to being cheap villains. (Okay, so they're still trying to save humanity and further mankind's interests, and most of their villainy is the result of indoctrination. But honestly, for most of the game, they're just run-of-the-mill cannon fodder.)

Sadly this. I never really trusted TIM, but I don't think his goals were bad. The way they achieved it was.

[DRTJR]

Cerberus was part of the Alience and I think even up till ME2 they were connected to the Alience. So, yes I like Cerberus, as our answer to the STG.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

With Cerberus you had a bunch of shiny, socially acceptable types, like Miranda, the Lazarus cell, and the Normandy crew, who ran around doing good, and spouting off about protecting humanity, etcetera, etcetera.  Remember how in ME2 after Horizon, the post-mission report said Cerberus was sending aid workers?  And after Jacob's loyalty mission?

All of that was apparently to sucker in corporate backers and new recruits.  They then flushed all those resources down to the sub-basement, where a bunch of mad scientists working in a fantasy land of unlimited resources and no ethical or logical boundaries churn out biotic death camps, killer AI and weaponized xenomorphs.

It kind of makes sense.  Today, you have eccentric bilionaires who build their own private islands and treat human life like numbers in a ledger.  When we reach the stage where the wealthy can build their own ecosystem on their private moon colony, how disassociated from reality will people like TIM or Miranda's father become?  Acting like a cartoon super villain or the idiots from every Aliens movie might actually seem logical to them.

[dreamgazer]

I never believed they were good or bad---at least, in the establishment phase in ME2, and how it funnels into ME3.

I believed them, as an organization, to be idealists that went to disgusting lengths for the betterment of mankind. You'll find scientists like that in many, many laboratories across the world today, doing things you wouldn't like to discover things that you do.

Cerberus' methods and ethics skew them towards the villainous spectrum, due to the extent in which they're able to bastardize humanity's own code of morals for their vision of "preservation". My Shepard---and, by association, I---don't agree that their tactics are justified in the slightest, and she doesn't support them or their position, but she also doesn't discount the fact that there are "noble" intentions riding behind their actions.

That, however, is the fabric you cut from to create fiction's best villains: the more you're able to see that their evil deeds have positive, idealistic motives underneath the dark cloak, the more complex your perception of them as a villain becomes.

[Apocaleepse360]

I saw them as how I'd see a renegade Shepard. Their long term goal was good, but the means in which they were trying to accomplish it were not. It kind of annoyed me how they turned from that to the typical villain in ME3.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 04 juin 2012 - 03:48 .

[Tankcommander]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

I saw them as how I'd see a renegade Shepard. Their long term goal was good, but the means in which they were trying to accomplish it were not. It kind of annoyed me how they turned from that to the typical villain in ME3.

Great comparison! Also, I feel ME3 Cerberus doesn't really have a bearing on the organization, since they were indoctrinated by that time.

[dreamgazer]

Tankcommander wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

I saw them as how I'd see a renegade Shepard. Their long term goal was good, but the means in which they were trying to accomplish it were not. It kind of annoyed me how they turned from that to the typical villain in ME3.

Great comparison! Also, I feel ME3 Cerberus doesn't really have a bearing on the organization, since they were indoctrinated by that time.

Sort of.  They also went into hyper-protective contingency mode in the wake of humanity becoming extinct, so one's perception of the organization's ideals as a whole can't really be totally gauged by their actions in ME3. 

[PlumPaul93]

Cerberus (specifically TIM) had noble goals in ME2. Unfortunately they were forced into being enemies for enemy diversity.

[Robhuzz]

For a while during ME2 I thought Cerberus wasn't so bad yeah. I mean TIM was willing to sacrifice whatever was needed to find a way to stop the Reapers. Similarly to a Renegade Shepard (before ME3 of course where Renegade suddenly became mixed up with The Dark Side) While immoral I don't consider it necessarily bad considering the opposition and the price every organic in the galaxy pays for failure.

That said, I could understand TIM's wish to keep the collector base. When he started whining to Shepard like a little kid for blowing it up instead though, my view of him changed. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on Pragia since it wasn't fully clear if TIM was involved or not. Though after ME3 I wouldn't be surprised if he was not only fully aware of what went on there but actually endorsed and encouraged it.

Then he became close to pure evil in ME3, murdering whomever might stand in his way in his search for a weapon. Innocent scientists, soldiers, loads of civilians on the citadel. Kidnapping people and using reaper tech to turn them into mindless slaves which he then used as soldiers. He was no better than the Reapers at that point. My respect for him was well and truly gone.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 04 juin 2012 - 04:01 .

[DistantUtopia]

MordicaiBlack wrote...

there was a period in mass effect 2 where i could almost see their point of view, but i never thought of them as good

Pretty much this.  I could see the overall goal of protecting humanity as good, but there were simply too many "bad" things that outweighed any benefits of Cerberus.

[Typhoniel]

I still believe that they are the good guys. BioWare just tries to ruin everything.
First Shepard Face
Then Earth
After that Cerberus
Then they ruin Omega
The next part is everyones mind. Or why is everyone thinking earth is important?
At the end they ruin our will do have children after seeing space jesus
Last but not least: The whole galaxy turns into ashes.

Okay /irony off

But I still want them to be the good guys I wanted to join TIM all the game. At the end of ME2 I didn't see coming that I break totally with him. I just gave him that collectors base.

[ZeroSum7]

Nah, after ME1 there was no way I was ever trusting them

[N7Gold]

I didn't trust them because of my encounter against them in ME1, but I knew that just because they employ renegade methods, that doesn't mean they are evil. The same can be said for a renegade Shepard. However, I couldn't shake this feeling that they have top secret agendas that they keep secret from everyone, even Shepard, except their most loyal agents, which reinforced my distrust in them, especially when that asari Spectre in the Shadow Broker DLC told Shepard that Cerberus has killed admirals who questioned Cerberus' character. I didn't care much about their methods, I was more concerned if their morally gray beliefs are being used like a mask to hide their true selves.

Modifié par N7Gold, 04 juin 2012 - 05:18 .