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[Volc19]

I loved ME2 Cerberus. It was eye opening to be able to finally see the Council and Alliance from an objective standpoint. Cerberus was working on stopping galactic genocide, while the so-called "good guys" were denying it would ever happen. TIM was also one of the most intriguing characters in the series. He had his own motivations, which weren't always clear, though they didn't need to be. He was complex and as morally grey as they come.

However, Cerberus in ME3 is just pants-on-head stupid. Why would they spend ME2 telling us that Cerberus is just misunderstood, just to turn them into Saturday-morning cartoon villains?

[Vespervin]

No, I never believed they had "good intentions". The only reason I like Cerberus is, well, the bad guys always get the best looking uniforms.

[jijeebo]

Not necessarily good, but not evil either. ME2 Cerberus was a brilliant development, introducing us to a lot of characters that were with them but in no way evil. TIM himself wasn't even evil, just extreme and enigmatic.


Then ME3 came along with "LOL indoctrinated" and ruined all that development... Such a shame.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No. Cerberus was bad. I never believed they were good.

They could have done a lot more with the dialogue though. Miranda had access to more information about how Cerberus got Shepard. That information should have been given to Shepard in the beginning of ME2 by either TIM or Miranda, although best said by TIM. All that had to be said was that "a former associate of yours saved your body from being turned over to the collectors and gave it to us after they found out we could resurrect you. I can't tell you anymore about who they are. The Alliance wrote you off for dead. We brought you back."

This would have at least given you a better grip as to how Cerberus got hold of you. It would have filled a major plot hole in the beginning, but that hole got filled later by "Surprise!"

But then you didn't suddenly expect Cerberus to turn into "the good guys" after the heinous experiments in ME1 did you? And you did see TIM's true nature begin to emerge toward the end of ME2. He was a pretty despicable character.

I always saw the council and alliance from a jaded viewpoint. Perhaps it's my age and experience in the world that contributed to that viewpoint. The "Council" is similar to the UN Security Council with five permanent nations with veto power imposing their will on the rest of the globe.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 04 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[M920CAIN]

I knew TIM couldn't be trusted since the Derelict Collector Ship mission, but I never expected the ****ty retcon of Mass Effect 3. I agree that TIM should be a villain. But a gray villain, like doing the wrong things to acomplish something good, but no... he's just evil and indoctrinated and whatever in this one. I expected the indoctrination part, but still he lacks any real motivation, his character wasn't developed at all. He's just a typical baddie in ME3, a joke... same with Kai Leng, only he's a bigger joke. Bioware dropped the ball hard in this game and I'm not talking about the endings... those are a whole'nother story of incompetence.

[dublin omega 223]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The "Council" is similar to the UN Security Council with five permanent nations with veto power imposing their will on the rest of the globe.

Gotta disagree with you there, I always saw the Council as being similar to America, arrogant, meddlesome, demanding and imposing their will on the rest of the world as well as ignoring international law. But that's just my own opinion.

[justafan]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The "Council" is similar to the UN Security Council with five permanent nations with veto power imposing their will on the rest of the globe.

Gotta disagree with you there, I always saw the Council as being similar to America, arrogant, meddlesome, demanding and imposing their will on the rest of the world as well as ignoring international law. But that's just my own opinion.

And I will strongly disagree with you.  The UNSC is a far more apt comparison.  It claims to act with the interest of all member nations, but any one of the permanent members can block a resolution and casue a deadlock.  You see in ME2 the genocide of thousands of colonists yet the Council takes no action, saying it is a "human" concern.  Similarly, the UNSC action on issues of genocide is often blocked by permanent members not wanting to get involved.

Also, the council is to council races what the UNSC is the the UN general assembly.  The general assembly can pass a resolution, but they have almost no power unless the UNSC enforces it.  Likewise, how much power do you think the Elcor or Hanar possess unless the Turians, Asari, and Salarians support them?

Although, you clearly wanted to just bash America, so whatever.  I'm actually half surprised you didn't compare the States to Cerberus, as that comparison would at least match what you claim about the US.

[dublin omega 223]

justafan wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The "Council" is similar to the UN Security Council with five permanent nations with veto power imposing their will on the rest of the globe.

Gotta disagree with you there, I always saw the Council as being similar to America, arrogant, meddlesome, demanding and imposing their will on the rest of the world as well as ignoring international law. But that's just my own opinion.

And I will strongly disagree with you.  The UNSC is a far more apt comparison.  It claims to act with the interest of all member nations, but any one of the permanent members can block a resolution and casue a deadlock.  You see in ME2 the genocide of thousands of colonists yet the Council takes no action, saying it is a "human" concern.  Similarly, the UNSC action on issues of genocide is often blocked by permanent members not wanting to get involved.

Also, the council is to council races what the UNSC is the the UN general assembly.  The general assembly can pass a resolution, but they have almost no power unless the UNSC enforces it.  Likewise, how much power do you think the Elcor or Hanar possess unless the Turians, Asari, and Salarians support them?

Although, you clearly wanted to just bash America, so whatever.  I'm actually half surprised you didn't compare the States to Cerberus, as that comparison would at least match what you claim about the US.

I wasn't bashing America. I have American friends, I just said the Council are more like America in my opinion.

I say Cerberus is like the IRA, once they were useful, now they are a disgrace to Ireland and its people.

[MisterJB]

Volc19 wrote...
However, Cerberus in ME3 is just pants-on-head stupid. Why would they spend ME2 telling us that Cerberus is just misunderstood, just to turn them into Saturday-morning cartoon villains?

While I absolutely prefer ME2 Cerberus, I have mixed feelings regarding Cerberus in ME3.
Yes, there are incredibly ridiculous portions where they become the Galactic Empire like occupying Eden Prime but then there are other portions like Sanctuary that are horrifying, play with very serious themes and, honestly, I can see ME2 TIM doing it since the stakes are so high.

[justafan]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

justafan wrote...

And I will strongly disagree with you.  The UNSC is a far more apt comparison.  It claims to act with the interest of all member nations, but any one of the permanent members can block a resolution and casue a deadlock.  You see in ME2 the genocide of thousands of colonists yet the Council takes no action, saying it is a "human" concern.  Similarly, the UNSC action on issues of genocide is often blocked by permanent members not wanting to get involved.

Also, the council is to council races what the UNSC is the the UN general assembly.  The general assembly can pass a resolution, but they have almost no power unless the UNSC enforces it.  Likewise, how much power do you think the Elcor or Hanar possess unless the Turians, Asari, and Salarians support them?

Although, you clearly wanted to just bash America, so whatever.  I'm actually half surprised you didn't compare the States to Cerberus, as that comparison would at least match what you claim about the US.

I wasn't bashing America. I have American friends, I just said the Council are more like America in my opinion.

I say Cerberus is like the IRA, once they were useful, now they are a disgrace to Ireland and its people.

Sorry, I got a little carried away in attacking you.  I disagree with you but I guess you could make an argument for that side.

Though I think the IRA comparison is a good comparison.

[dublin omega 223]

justafan wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

justafan wrote...

And I will strongly disagree with you.  The UNSC is a far more apt comparison.  It claims to act with the interest of all member nations, but any one of the permanent members can block a resolution and casue a deadlock.  You see in ME2 the genocide of thousands of colonists yet the Council takes no action, saying it is a "human" concern.  Similarly, the UNSC action on issues of genocide is often blocked by permanent members not wanting to get involved.

Also, the council is to council races what the UNSC is the the UN general assembly.  The general assembly can pass a resolution, but they have almost no power unless the UNSC enforces it.  Likewise, how much power do you think the Elcor or Hanar possess unless the Turians, Asari, and Salarians support them?

Although, you clearly wanted to just bash America, so whatever.  I'm actually half surprised you didn't compare the States to Cerberus, as that comparison would at least match what you claim about the US.

I wasn't bashing America. I have American friends, I just said the Council are more like America in my opinion.

I say Cerberus is like the IRA, once they were useful, now they are a disgrace to Ireland and its people.

Sorry, I got a little carried away in attacking you.  I disagree with you but I guess you could make an argument for that side.

Though I think the IRA comparison is a good comparison.

That's alright it happens all the time oddly enough. people always misintrperate what I say.

my best mate agrees with me and he said it himself that Cerberus is ME's answer to the IRA, terrorists who did what was necessary, what some would say was hard to save what the people love.

[Adanu]

Ceberus has always been about pure pragmatism and using methods others call too extreme to achieve their vision of the potential of humanity.

The problem is that somewhere along the way, Jack got indoctrinated just enough that even if his goal was decent, he ended up losing the capacity to follow through with it.

Learning how to control the Reapers with their signal was a great idea. The method used for it was harsh, but the research would have been useful. The basis of our post WW2 medical knowledge was from horrific experiments. Same principle.

[grey_wind]

Cerberus was so forgettable in ME1 that I was glad they were retconned into a morally grey organization for ME2. They were much more compelling as the shady ends-justify-the-means organization than ME1's generic evil bad guys.
Then in ME3 they decided to go back to ME1's stellar portrayal of Cerberus. Sigh.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The "Council" is similar to the UN Security Council with five permanent nations with veto power imposing their will on the rest of the globe.

Gotta disagree with you there, I always saw the Council as being similar to America, arrogant, meddlesome, demanding and imposing their will on the rest of the world as well as ignoring international law. But that's just my own opinion.

Well, America can cast a veto and impose that will on the rest of the world. The same people run America that run Europe. China can cast a veto and impose their will on the rest of the world. Same with Russia. Except then there is NATO where Europe and America can go around China and Russia and the UN. Believe me. We're not as naive as you think we are.

[Taboo]

I'm glad someone made the analogy to the IRA.

The Illusive Man is not Bobby Sands.

He's the man who blows up police officers cars in order to make a point.

[dublin omega 223]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm glad someone made the analogy to the IRA.

The Illusive Man is not Bobby Sands.

He's the man who blows up police officers cars in order to make a point.

I made the comparison as the IRA are a deeply divisive issue in Ireland half of us see them as just crazy terrorists and the others see them as heros who long ago fought off The Black and Tans who killed so many during the fight to end 700 years of British rule over Ireland, but now go to far with their actions.

In my opinion TIM is similar to Michael Collins, not Bobby Sands.

Modifié par dublin omega 223, 04 juin 2012 - 08:52 .

[Taboo]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm glad someone made the analogy to the IRA.

The Illusive Man is not Bobby Sands.

He's the man who blows up police officers cars in order to make a point.

I made the comparison as the IRA are a deeply divisive issue in Ireland half of us see them as just crazy terrorists and the others see them as heros who long ago fought off The Black and Tans who killed so many during the fight to end 700 years of British rule over Ireland, but now go to far with their actions.

In my opinion TIM is similar to Michael Collins, not Bobby Sands.

Uh no. I support Bobby Sands but not the actions of the IRA following his death. That's the issue here. It's that an issue is there at all. Had Margret Thatcher recognized Bobby Sands as a political prisoner no one would have died. On the off hand had she acknowledged him as a political prisoner she would have had to have done so with all the captured IRA members. Did you see Steve McQueens Hunger? That's the most neutral position I've ever seen.

Whatever "goals" the Illusive Man has are overshadowed by the fact that he is MORE than willing to sacrifice others in horrific experiments to further his goals. He is also more than willing to commit acts of terrorism in order to maintain a level of fear against Cerberus. He's nothing more than a terrorist with an ego problem.

[dublin omega 223]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm glad someone made the analogy to the IRA.

The Illusive Man is not Bobby Sands.

He's the man who blows up police officers cars in order to make a point.

I made the comparison as the IRA are a deeply divisive issue in Ireland half of us see them as just crazy terrorists and the others see them as heros who long ago fought off The Black and Tans who killed so many during the fight to end 700 years of British rule over Ireland, but now go to far with their actions.

In my opinion TIM is similar to Michael Collins, not Bobby Sands.

Uh no. I support Bobby Sands but not the actions of the IRA following his death. That's the issue here. It's that an issue is there at all. Had Margret Thatcher recognized Bobby Sands as a political prisoner no one would have died. On the off hand had she acknowledged him as a political prisoner she would have had to have done so with all the captured IRA members. Did you see Steve McQueens Hunger? That's the most neutral position I've ever seen.

Whatever "goals" the Illusive Man has are overshadowed by the fact that he is MORE than willing to sacrifice others in horrific experiments to further his goals. He is also more than willing to commit acts of terrorism in order to maintain a level of fear against Cerberus. He's nothing more than a terrorist with an ego problem.

Add the face Britian never formally apologised for the Black and Tans. A member of my family was killed them cause she was looking after wounded people caught in the crossfire.

I'd say that Cerberus started out with good intentions but it as well as TIM got corrupted over time, like most things in life.

[sg1fan75]

No Never but I played ME1

[thesnake777]

Greylycantrope wrote...
As far as Shepard goes all I'm saying is that the possiblity for an alternative champion of humanity does exist.

The Alliance tries to finds compremises that work for everyone they don't always appease, let me remind you that batarian attacks are a result of the Council siding with the Alliance over colony rights instead of the batarians, Cerberus was not need. Anderson only stepped down because the Reapers were coming and as a military man went where the thought he'd be more useful. And it was Anderson that get's Shepards Spectre status reinstated so don't say he couldn't cut it. Humanity also gained a council seat and embassy faster then any other species all without Cerberus help.

ME2 colonies didn't want alliance interference that's why they were set up in the Terminus Systems to begin with.

Yes but Shepard is a single man/woman, we cant bring him or her into this becuase what ever effect shep has comes down to whoever is controlling shep. 

The allaince is to overwhelmed to really do anything to protect humanities intrest, I'm not saying that the allaiance doesnt try but it is streched thin. Yes i do remeber it has to do with trade agreements with the batarians..the whole reason the fight being between humans and batarians is becuase both expanded into the same area. The allaince has been unable to truly deal with them. this comes down to it being streched thin, they do not have the manpower to effectivly protect all human colonies, and human worlds. 

as for anderson he gets shep reinstated into the allaince...the conucil give his spectere statuts. I will say that anderson couldent cut it. in his own words "hes not a politician" ME2..this is not saying he isnt motivated, he is inexpirenced with the politcal world. Even within the alliance he was constantly bumping heads...so I say it again, He couldent make the Cut to be a member of the council. 

As for the colonies that dont want allaince interference...they left becuase they no longer trust the Alliances motivations. 
Also about humanities suit on the citidal..you do realize that Cerberus has been working behind the scnces, they have offed, politicans that would hinder humanities rise. So they have done thing to help Humanity Stay in power and continue to gain it.

[Quackjack]

klarabella wrote...

Cartoonishly evil villains in ME1.

Manipulating Shepard in ME2.

Back to mostly cartoonishly evil in ME3.

In short, this.

In long though, my feelings for Cerberus are more complex.

In Mass Effect 2, looking at what they were (supposed) to represent was an organization that i'd support wholeheartadly, but TIM was the spearpoint and looking at all the cells *except for the one Shepard was in* I could kinda notice Cerberus was not all it was cracked up to be. Unfortunatly Cerberus abused the base i worked so hard to get them in ME3 that when first saw that logo on the side of that Mako on Mars it actaully felt like a betrayal. As a renegade it felt worse as what TIM put it up as in ME2 perfectly reflected my shepard.

Modifié par Quackjack, 04 juin 2012 - 09:12 .

[EricHVela]

If we're just talking the timeline from ME1 to ME3, Cerberus is evil.

If we're talking about the Codex entry explaining how Cerberus began, not so black/white.

[malakim2099]

Amazed this wasn't linked yet.

[thesnake777]

@ malakim2099

I like that one..theres another with a sole survivor shep somewhere which is funny too.

[Quackjack]

Just thought of a funny analogy

If the Council races were humanitys bully then the alliance was the kid who takes it, and cerberus not only stands up against the bully but stabs him in the face, takes his wallet and bangs his mother.