200 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nah, Sanctuary was inept. A publicly-advertised refuge that anyone with a shuttle can fly to, with a big giant tower, that is supposed to be hiding from the Reapers.

ME2-TIM would have publicly set up Sanctuary as a Cerberus-organized refuge for refugees, to various hidden worlds that the Alliance/Council had never tracked down. Sanctuaries would be well-hidden, carefully concealed vaults: built underground, and difficult for even the Reapers to scan from orbit.  Project Sanctuary would be a public secret: something everyone knows about, but the location of which is a total secret. People go to Horizon as the way-point to getting to the other stations, sort of a 'load up in this transport and we'll take you where you want to go.' To add to it, Cerberus-controlled communications would be allowed, so that people outside of the Sanctuaries get proof that others are alive and well.

The reseach lab would have been just one of many legitimate Sanctuaries. Say that if there are Sancuaries 1 through 10, then the research lab would be Sanctuary 0, the 'unofficial' Sanctuary. Every once in a while it sends a shuttle to Horizon, takes a load of refugees that would otherwise go somewhere safe and sound, and they disappear.

Sanctuary thus operates not only as a half-way decent secret operation in not being in publicly advertised locations, while Cerberus can reap a public relations windfall from Protecting Humanity.

So. Much. Logic.

I can't explain how much I like this post. It makes so much sense. Something ME3 certainly lacked. Damn BioWare for not hiring you.

[nos_astra]

Freckle Face wrote...
Awesome topic

No, I never trusted Cerberus. I always assumed there was an ulterior motive for finding the Collectors, and still do (obvs). I took every chance I could to stick it to The (illusive) Man. Even my renegade Sheps didn't like working for him. How could you do what he said and not feel like he's manipulating you? He always gave me a puppeteer vibe.

I figured the motive for finding the Collectors was to salvage Reaper tech. I doubt Cerberus actually cared about a few colonies in the Terminus systems. That they might be grateful is just an added bonus but Cerberus would be ready to throw just about anyone under the bus.

And I have yet to understand why they'd resurrect a "bloody icon" and then hand him/her a gun and send them off to shoot things and inspire loyalty in 12 underlings.

Modifié par klarabella, 05 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[Terrorize69]

Good and evil are points of views. Everything TIM and Cerberus did, they viewed as "Good" and believed they were doing what was best for humanity. TIM took part in the first inter species wars with Humans and I think it was Turians he fought, you could say that he's views of protecting humanity stemmed from his past memories and views of the battlefield.

An old vet who remembers the old wars and takes actions to ensure that humanity doesn't face the same again. TIM wouldn't be the first to take this stance, human history is filled with vets who hold grudges against those they once fought.

[KingZayd]

their ends were not necessarily evil, but misguided. the ways they went about achieving those ends are what's really wrong with Cerberus.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 juin 2012 - 01:30 .

[Archontor]

To be honest I always tire of an entity trying to justify it's actions with 'what is evil'. It's always some douche trying to justify genocide, slavery, assassination under petty claims that they're necessary to survive, often right next to a group doing well enough without it.

[Oldbones2]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yeah, uh, ethics, ALWAYS matter.

Sure, but morality will always give way to necessity.

Always.

[luper567]

MysticSpace wrote...

lolerk53 wrote...

Before I played ME1 and was new to the ME franchise and didn't go very deep into it, when I played ME2 I trusted him, but I had my pistol loaded just in case...
Then I played ME1 and hated the very core of this man.

And the worst thing is that PS3 owners got completely screwed by not being able to get ME1.  ME1 treats Cerberus missions as side missions and aren't mentioned in the Genesis comic.

Honestly, even as a PS3 guy, I could tell immediately that TIM was a snake. I was never convinced that Overlord or the Teltin facility went anywhere near as rogue as they claimed.  Even the Teltin logs make it pretty clear that TIM was a results at all costs guy, and he wouldn't care what methods they used to increase biotic power so long as they worked.  Between that, the Collector ship fake out and him asking to save the Collector base (which was playing with fire vis a vis indoctrination), it wasn't hard to figure out he was playing you.

[ZerebusPrime]

ME1: Evil conspiracy that likes to conduct evil science involving monsters, possibly the direct cause of the Sole Survivor Shepard's sole survivor status.
ME2: As above, but with greater intelligence and the resources to make things actually work.
ME3: As above, but they've been infected by stupid.

[shrimprahmen]

No. they killed admiral kohoku..that was enough for me to destroy their military wing and have a distaste for them in any other form.

[Dean_the_Young]

shrimprahmen wrote...

No. they killed admiral kohoku..that was enough for me to destroy their military wing and have a distaste for them in any other form.

Missing a 'part of' in there.

[TJX2045]

 First playthrough in ME2 I thought Cerberus was evil at first but then thought maybe they changed and reformed.

It was only until the announcement of ME3 and a few videos and some of my first ME3 gameplay with my Canon Shep that I realized I was indoctrinated by the SOB The Illusive Man.  <_<

Modifié par TJX2045, 05 juin 2012 - 10:50 .

[astrallite]

His eyes were indoctrinated even from the beginning, so obviously he was up to no good.

[Pelle6666]

Never trusted TIM, understood why some of the Cerberus recruited Normandy crew liked the way they operated though.

[Zeroth Angel]

Yes.
I overestimated Bioware though when i imagined ME3's Cerberus Plot.

[frozn89]

No, not really, even if I agree with the whole "the end justifies the means" ideology of his, to a certain extent anyway. While it felt nice knowing we had someone looking out for humanity in the ME universe, some of the shenanigans TIM and Cerberus pulled were too extreme.

#edit

Had Cerberus actually stayed in the moral "grey-zone", I could've bought that they infact were good. But they come of as extremists, and they stray faaaar away from any "grey-zone" imo. Still, a cool enemy to face in a videogame, even if they got themselves an army out of nowhere 

Modifié par frozn89, 06 juin 2012 - 12:03 .

[DPSSOC]

aMytallica wrote...
That's completely ignoring the many other horrible things Cerberus have done. And Spectres aren't licensed to do anything they want. They are held accountable for their actions. Look at both Saren and Shepard. Saren was booted from the Spectres after being linked to Eden Prime, and Shepards actions are repeatedly questioned by the countil. Not to mention the repercussions Shepard faces after the events of Arrival.

 
Well let's look at Saren for a moment shall we.  Twice now, at least, he's been accused of criminal actions (Eden Prime and Anderson).  Neither time has a proper investigation been done (far as we're told).  The Council assigns someone to investigate Saren without giving him access to Saren's classified files, it was a show and nothing more.  If you're going to legitimately investigate somebody you don't let them hide behind status that you gave them; you either grant access to the investigator, or assign an investigator who already has access.

Yes the Spectres answer to the Council but the Council doesn't actually investigate or monitor what Spectres do.  Saren was able to find Sovereign, contact the Geth, lead an army of them into Council space to attack a colony, and construct and operate a facility for breeding Krogan and the Council didn't have a clue.

aMytallica wrote...
Cerberus on the other hand does whatever it wants and answers to nobody. TIM may have been the one helping Shepard with the Collectors, but I don't believe any of his actions can be considered noble. TIM has his own agenda, which is made abundantly clear in ME3.

So do the Council, and in TIM's defence he's never (to my knowledge) advocated genocide.

[DevilBeast]

MisterJB wrote...

Good and Evil is subjective. The idea of Cerberus and their methods in ME2 differ very little from something like the STG "It's a competitive galaxy. Protect and advance your people, at any costs"
Yes, sometimes it involves unsavory methods but it is just what had to be done to protect humanity in a very hostile galaxy.

In ME3, Bioware just ruined Cerberus.

That sentiment would probably have worked better for Cerberus, if they actually valued human life.

[DevilBeast]

Sion1138 wrote...

What is "good"?

I thought of TIM as an intelligent individual, he turned out to be a complete jackass. 

I´m pretty sure Hitler was a bright individual too. Doesn´t justify his actions though.

[DevilBeast]

MisterJB wrote...

The Council has a secret police with a mandate to do ANYTHING; so long as they don't get caught, of course; to keep turians, salarians and asari in power but no one says anything against the Spectres.
But Cerberus kills an Admiral to protect a project that could save thousands of our soldier's lives and suddenly they are monsters!

And you really htink that is the only "bad" thing Cerberus has ever done??

Modifié par DevilBeast, 06 juin 2012 - 03:38 .

[thesnake777]

DevilBeast wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Council has a secret police with a mandate to do ANYTHING; so long as they don't get caught, of course; to keep turians, salarians and asari in power but no one says anything against the Spectres.
But Cerberus kills an Admiral to protect a project that could save thousands of our soldier's lives and suddenly they are monsters!

And you really htink that is the only "bad" thing Cerberus has ever done??

What I have noticed is alot of hatred for Cerberus when other alien groups have commited similar atrocites..

[DevilBeast]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Graceyn wrote...

Never. If you do the side missions in ME1 it's virtually impossible to believe that they were good, or even misguided, or even using extreme methods in pursuit of a noble goal.

Which is why one thing that really bugs me in ME3 is that at several points you are forced into saying that TIM was once kind of okay. Whenever that happens I am yelling at the screen, "No, my Shepard never, ever thought that, dammit!"

I don't know if I believe this - I think TIM always had "nobler" intentions as it pertained to humanity, and the organization probably had good people in it (and not just on the Normandy for the purposes of placating Shepard) - but whenever you create a species-centric organization, it is always liable to attract the wrong sort of people, as does the kind of money that TIM can move around to the cells.

In ME1 they were definitely portrayed as the darker version of the Alliance, and it would have suited the writers better to take what they were doing and associate them with positive outcomes (for example, the experiments with the thorian creepers could have produced data that was helpful to the the surviving colonists of Zhu's Hope).  In ME2 we see part of the organization is made of good people, hard working people with families who want to make a difference.  They don't mistreat the aliens on board - they in fact respect them.  Most importantly, every under-handed thing that TIM does pays off.

In ME3, however, they are reduced to mustache-twirling victims - all we are missing is the fair maiden tied to the railroad tracks.  Anybody with half-a brain left the organization, and are being hunted down for it.  Everyone left gets reduced to a "mindless" husk, just there to do TIM's bidding. TIM ends up falling prey to the Reaper's mind-altering powers, as well.  They took characters that they had spent an entire third of the franchise painting as morally grey, and then either pushed them to black or white.

You do hopefully realize that the crew on the Normandy in ME2 were specifically handpicked from non-Cerberus ranks just to make Shepard feel "comfortable" and not seeing Cerberus for what it really is.

[DevilBeast]

thesnake777 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Council has a secret police with a mandate to do ANYTHING; so long as they don't get caught, of course; to keep turians, salarians and asari in power but no one says anything against the Spectres.
But Cerberus kills an Admiral to protect a project that could save thousands of our soldier's lives and suddenly they are monsters!

And you really htink that is the only "bad" thing Cerberus has ever done??

What I have noticed is alot of hatred for Cerberus when other alien groups have commited similar atrocites..

And that suddenly makes what Cerberus did any better?? You can´t justify an atrocity by saying "they do it too!!".
By that logic murder, rape, theiving and whatnot would be okay, because other people commit them too.

Modifié par DevilBeast, 06 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[thesnake777]

DevilBeast wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Council has a secret police with a mandate to do ANYTHING; so long as they don't get caught, of course; to keep turians, salarians and asari in power but no one says anything against the Spectres.
But Cerberus kills an Admiral to protect a project that could save thousands of our soldier's lives and suddenly they are monsters!

And you really htink that is the only "bad" thing Cerberus has ever done??

What I have noticed is alot of hatred for Cerberus when other alien groups have commited similar atrocites..

And that suddenly makes what Cerberus did any better?? You can´t justify an atrocity by saying "they do it too!!".
By that logic murder, rape, theiving and whatnot would be okay, bacause other people commit them too.

No, thats not what I'm saying..What I'm saying is that Cerberus is not the only ones commiting such practices, But people despise Cerberus and dont pay much mind to what groups like The STG do. 

[Jason Ralph]

I felt the whole Alliance versus Cerberus was politics: two sides with different views on the same problem.
Far as trusting Cerberus that ended when TIM hid from me about the Collectors being out to get me at the end of the Horizon mission. That really made me mad. From then on, I was constantly looking for someone to stab me in back. And Subject Zero & Tali being paranoid didn't help.