180 réponses à ce sujet

[ryder500]

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Also, I will say again, first part of op post is very funny and show that op has on real argument as obviously know nothing about Tali. Forced down throat? Lol, we do not get Tali until half way through me2 and me3 and she isnt even a romance option in me1. Hell, she don't really even talk to shepard if you do not actively talk to her.

Meanwhile, liara is always desperate to try and get in shepards pants and always has main plot line conversations with shepard in each game, more than once in each one.

Only main storyline talk with Tali is rannoch in me3?

So, this is why I think it is just flame bait, op argument is very unfounded it seems.

Sorry for my bad english ._.

I will show you how poor that reasoning is. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Liara/Miranda or any of the other character attacked in this thread to defend Tali are "badly written", would that redeem Tali? no, Tali will still be a horribly written character, only that now she'd have some company. 

It seems that you missed my point. I am not bringing up point of you idea of Tali being badly written character, but I am arguing your point that you think Tali is forced down our throats.

I ask for you to re read my post?

I notice your wording too; "Tali will still be a horribly wirrten charatcer..."

It is pretty obvious that you are just looking for flame bait. Stop kidding yourself ok? I am bad at english becuase it is secodn language for me, but I try to learn it as much as I can, and even I can see that you are looking for excuse for flame war.

Please stop so we have no more flame ok?

Modifié par ryder500, 04 juin 2012 - 02:13 .

[Arlionis]

Apathy1989 wrote...

Obvious troll bait is obvious. Tali is far better written than Liara, and far less forced than Liara.

ME1 she is quite a bit of a codex, but so is Wrex and Liara. They are there to explain their alien cultures. Underneath they have characters though, which become more obvious if you bring them along for missions.

You can attack any and as many characters as you want, that will not magically fix the Tali character train-wreck. Sorry mate. 

[Ponei]

Arlionis wrote...

I will show you how poor that reasoning is. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Liara/Miranda or any of the other character attacked in this thread to defend Tali are "badly written", would that redeem Tali? no, Tali will still be a horribly written character, only that now she'd have some company. 

Tali is not badly written and asaris lay eggs lol

[ryder500]

It seems like you are turning away from your "logical and calm argument now" and becoming maybe just as offensive as Tali fans who you think are being rude. Your comments are becoming very snide.

I think it is time to report thread for flame baiting.

[Arlionis]

ryder500 wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Also, I will say again, first part of op post is very funny and show that op has on real argument as obviously know nothing about Tali. Forced down throat? Lol, we do not get Tali until half way through me2 and me3 and she isnt even a romance option in me1. Hell, she don't really even talk to shepard if you do not actively talk to her.

Meanwhile, liara is always desperate to try and get in shepards pants and always has main plot line conversations with shepard in each game, more than once in each one.

Only main storyline talk with Tali is rannoch in me3?

So, this is why I think it is just flame bait, op argument is very unfounded it seems.

Sorry for my bad english ._.

I will show you how poor that reasoning is. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Liara/Miranda or any of the other character attacked in this thread to defend Tali are "badly written", would that redeem Tali? no, Tali will still be a horribly written character, only that now she'd have some company. 

It seems that you missed my point. I am not bringing up point of you idea of Tali being badly written character, but I am arguing your point that you think Tali is forced down our throats.

I ask for you to re read my post?

I notice your wording too; "Tali will still be a horribly wirrten charatcer..."

It is pretty obviosu that you are just looking for flame bait. Stop kidding yourself ok? I am bad at english becuase it is secodn language for me, but I try to learn it as much as I can, and even I can see that you are looking for excuse for flame war.

Please stop so we have no more flame ok?

Are you so empty of arguments that you now are using an obvious typing error to attack me? and then you call other people flamers? 

Regarding  the Tali being shoved down our throats point, that's mostly personal, in my case, I feel it that way. 

[Babi_Siha]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Theres a difference between "different opinions" backed with reasoning and "petty/cheap jabs" back with reasoning. If you cannot see how or why your OP is viewed as flaming or flame bait, and the reaction people gave you didn't give you a hunt then I doubt I can explain it. But maybe I can flip your logic to give you an example.

"I think Liara is the worst char in the game, she spent the ehole time acting the interspecies galatic space wh*re, who never took no for an answer and spent nearly 3 years trying to get into Shepards pants."

Flaming with reasoning is still flaming.

So let me get this straight, you believe the OP flamed Tali just for the sake of it and now you chose to do the same with Liara just to make your point. Why is it all right for you to do that, but the OP must be sacrificed?

[ryder500]

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Also, I will say again, first part of op post is very funny and show that op has on real argument as obviously know nothing about Tali. Forced down throat? Lol, we do not get Tali until half way through me2 and me3 and she isnt even a romance option in me1. Hell, she don't really even talk to shepard if you do not actively talk to her.

Meanwhile, liara is always desperate to try and get in shepards pants and always has main plot line conversations with shepard in each game, more than once in each one.

Only main storyline talk with Tali is rannoch in me3?

So, this is why I think it is just flame bait, op argument is very unfounded it seems.

Sorry for my bad english ._.

I will show you how poor that reasoning is. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Liara/Miranda or any of the other character attacked in this thread to defend Tali are "badly written", would that redeem Tali? no, Tali will still be a horribly written character, only that now she'd have some company. 

It seems that you missed my point. I am not bringing up point of you idea of Tali being badly written character, but I am arguing your point that you think Tali is forced down our throats.

I ask for you to re read my post?

I notice your wording too; "Tali will still be a horribly wirrten charatcer..."

It is pretty obviosu that you are just looking for flame bait. Stop kidding yourself ok? I am bad at english becuase it is secodn language for me, but I try to learn it as much as I can, and even I can see that you are looking for excuse for flame war.

Please stop so we have no more flame ok?

Are you so empty of arguments that you now are using an obvious typing error to attack me? and then you call other people flamers? 

Regarding  the Tali being shoved down our throats point, that's mostly personal, in my case, I feel it that way. 

I do not understand what you mean by typing error to attack you? There is obvious insults underlying your words. But ok, whatever.

There is no point for this argument, it will only be back and forth. I can accept your idea for now, but my love for Tali will not be changed.

I will return to my Tali thread. Good bye.

edit: oh, now i see what you mean by spelling error to attack you. I did not mean it as i notice your spelling error (i think i spelled it wrong not you?), but that i notice snideness underlying your comment.

Modifié par ryder500, 04 juin 2012 - 02:20 .

[Doctor Uburian]

I respectfully disagree with the OP

Personally, i think that a character whose personality is constantly changing (to some degree) is much more interesting than a plain one.

In Tali´s case, the personality change is an evolution (A young woman who desires to fallow her father's ideals, ME1-2, who later becomes more independent and shows her true personality,ME2-3) and as a Quarian (and admiral if she was not exiled), she has the right to defend her people, especially on potentially apocalyptic circumstances.

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 04 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[Terrorize69]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Theres a difference between "different opinions" backed with reasoning and "petty/cheap jabs" back with reasoning. If you cannot see how or why your OP is viewed as flaming or flame bait, and the reaction people gave you didn't give you a hunt then I doubt I can explain it. But maybe I can flip your logic to give you an example.

"I think Liara is the worst char in the game, she spent the ehole time acting the interspecies galatic space wh*re, who never took no for an answer and spent nearly 3 years trying to get into Shepards pants."

Flaming with reasoning is still flaming.

So let me get this straight, you believe the OP flamed Tali just for the sake of it and now you chose to do the same with Liara just to make your point. Why is it all right for you to do that, but the OP must be sacrificed?

Excatly, my point being that no amount of reasoning and views/opinions will hide something that is flaming.

And I fully expect people to flame that post and I'll come back with the OPs same flawed logic. Works both ways, flaming Tali and flaming Liara and who ever else.

[Arlionis]

ryder500 wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

ryder500 wrote...

Also, I will say again, first part of op post is very funny and show that op has on real argument as obviously know nothing about Tali. Forced down throat? Lol, we do not get Tali until half way through me2 and me3 and she isnt even a romance option in me1. Hell, she don't really even talk to shepard if you do not actively talk to her.

Meanwhile, liara is always desperate to try and get in shepards pants and always has main plot line conversations with shepard in each game, more than once in each one.

Only main storyline talk with Tali is rannoch in me3?

So, this is why I think it is just flame bait, op argument is very unfounded it seems.

Sorry for my bad english ._.

I will show you how poor that reasoning is. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Liara/Miranda or any of the other character attacked in this thread to defend Tali are "badly written", would that redeem Tali? no, Tali will still be a horribly written character, only that now she'd have some company. 

It seems that you missed my point. I am not bringing up point of you idea of Tali being badly written character, but I am arguing your point that you think Tali is forced down our throats.

I ask for you to re read my post?

I notice your wording too; "Tali will still be a horribly wirrten charatcer..."

It is pretty obviosu that you are just looking for flame bait. Stop kidding yourself ok? I am bad at english becuase it is secodn language for me, but I try to learn it as much as I can, and even I can see that you are looking for excuse for flame war.

Please stop so we have no more flame ok?

Are you so empty of arguments that you now are using an obvious typing error to attack me? and then you call other people flamers? 

Regarding  the Tali being shoved down our throats point, that's mostly personal, in my case, I feel it that way. 

I do not understand what you mean by typing error to attack you? There is obvious insults underlying your words. But ok, whatever.

There is no ponit for this argument, it will only be back and forth. I can accept your idea for now, but my love for Tali will not be changed.

I will return to my Tali thread. Good bye.

edit: oh, now i see what you mean by spelling error to atatck you. I did not mean it as i notice your spelling error (i think i sepleld it wrong not you?), but that i notice snideness underlying your comment.

Insult? where? there's none of that. 

[Arlionis]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Theres a difference between "different opinions" backed with reasoning and "petty/cheap jabs" back with reasoning. If you cannot see how or why your OP is viewed as flaming or flame bait, and the reaction people gave you didn't give you a hunt then I doubt I can explain it. But maybe I can flip your logic to give you an example.

"I think Liara is the worst char in the game, she spent the ehole time acting the interspecies galatic space wh*re, who never took no for an answer and spent nearly 3 years trying to get into Shepards pants."

Flaming with reasoning is still flaming.

So let me get this straight, you believe the OP flamed Tali just for the sake of it and now you chose to do the same with Liara just to make your point. Why is it all right for you to do that, but the OP must be sacrificed?

Excatly, my point being that no amount of reasoning and views/opinions will hide something that is flaming.

And I fully expect people to flame that post and I'll come back with the OPs same flawed logic. Works both ways, flaming Tali and flaming Liara and who ever else.

Yeah, we got it, you don't like my opinion so that makes it a "flame" to your eyes, no matter if I backed every one of my points with proper argumentation as to why I see it that way. Please stop trolling and move along. 

[Terrorize69]

Arlionis wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Theres a difference between "different opinions" backed with reasoning and "petty/cheap jabs" back with reasoning. If you cannot see how or why your OP is viewed as flaming or flame bait, and the reaction people gave you didn't give you a hunt then I doubt I can explain it. But maybe I can flip your logic to give you an example.

"I think Liara is the worst char in the game, she spent the ehole time acting the interspecies galatic space wh*re, who never took no for an answer and spent nearly 3 years trying to get into Shepards pants."

Flaming with reasoning is still flaming.

So let me get this straight, you believe the OP flamed Tali just for the sake of it and now you chose to do the same with Liara just to make your point. Why is it all right for you to do that, but the OP must be sacrificed?

Excatly, my point being that no amount of reasoning and views/opinions will hide something that is flaming.

And I fully expect people to flame that post and I'll come back with the OPs same flawed logic. Works both ways, flaming Tali and flaming Liara and who ever else.

Yeah, we got it, you don't like my opinion so that makes it a "flame" to your eyes, no matter if I backed every one of my points with proper argumentation as to why I see it that way. Please stop trolling and move along. 

And you sitll fail to see the point, no amount of "proper argumentation" makes a flame anything more then a flame. If you wanted to actually have a logical debate you should of dropped the petty attacks in the first place.

So yet again I refer to my example quoted above, thats a flame with "proper argumentation" yet it is still a flame. Please stop making threads full of flamebait and move along.

[ryder500]

I am sorry to return but I feel I must post this.

Title of thread:

Tali should be taught as an example of how NOT to write a character

Example of comments:

it's a shame that so many development resources were wasted in such a bland character

Tali will still be a horribly written character

You can attack any and as many characters as you want, that will not magically fix the Tali character train-wreck. Sorry mate.

I do not think direct insults are example of "proper argumentation". Take title of thread for example. Proper should be "Reasons why I dislike Tali as a character". That would be good pretense for a reasonable argument of you detailing points for your ideas of Tali as a bad written character. Title at the moment just sounds like a direct insult and of course will rally tali fans for flame war.

You are just contradicting yourself a lot in my eyes. I hope you understand this.

Thankyou, I will go now for sure

[Babi_Siha]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Excatly, my point being that no amount of reasoning and views/opinions will hide something that is flaming.

And I fully expect people to flame that post and I'll come back with the OPs same flawed logic. Works both ways, flaming Tali and flaming Liara and who ever else.

Sorry, I still don't think the OP was flaming in his post. Like I said, there are a lot of threads like this already, perhaps the OP should've posted in one of those, but if you read this whole topic you'll see that the flame war didn't start with the OP. Would you still see as flaming if it weren't for the last paragraph?

"In short, it's a shame that so many development resources were wasted in such a bland character when Miranda, Jack, Samara, and well, any of ME2 cast, would have been more interesting for ME3 as a squad member."

I partially agree with that, I believe that there were more intersting characters that should be made squad in the game, maybe not at the expense of Tali, but still...

The way I see it the OP was acting more emotional than was trying to start a war. Fans of ME2 characters that aren't the dextro team got screwed in ME3 (sorry for the language), but it's normal to expect this sort of emotional response.

People argue that Tali is racist and that the quarians started the war with the geth, that they shouldn't blame the geth for kicking them out of their home planet and those are valid arguments, but it's understanding why all the quarians hate the geth, even if they were responsible for the war it's hard to view things logically when your entire species live precariously and are at the risk of being extinct in a few decades if things don't improve, I don't really like Tali but I get all the hate, I'd feel the same way, in some things it's hard to separate emotion from logic.

Of course those are completely different situation, but my point was that maybe the OP let his emotion got the best of him in his last paragraph, that just doesn't mean he wanted all this flame to happen.

[Theodoro]

Everybody has their own opinions, but I believe that bringing Tali down as an 'example' of how not to write a character is inconsiderate and shallow.

What do you find wrong with Tali, I'm curious? First of all, she's quite possibly one of the most loyal characters you'll ever have in Mass Effect, she's good-hearted, generous and kind, not to mention funny when she wants to be. Most of all, she's loyal not only to the cause and Shepard's mission, but also to her own people. Of course she would stand up for herself and the quarians if Shepard wants to exterminate them. She has a new opinion of the geth as people equal to any other, and that is well portrayed in the third game, but do you expect she'll stand by and let Shepard allow the possible slaughter of her entire race? It's called devotion. If anything, she's one of the best-written characters, in my opinion.

I find it interesting how petty sometimes the reasons for character hate are on these boards. Because of the assertion that Tali is shoved down your throat, you're immediately keen on spreading hate that she doesn't deserve. I just want to see a real reason that you feel this way, and I'll accept it, but I can't find anything solid from the posts that I've seen.

And Talimancers: Responding to your favorite character's hate with your own hate and bashing on other characters is not going to earn you any points, or will it help you in your defense of Tali in any way.

[hot_heart]

I don't think the OP was 'flaming' but the whole argument could've been done more diplomatically.

“Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy.”

[Apathy1989]

Theodoro wrote...

What do you find wrong with Tali, I'm curious?

The fact we are on page 3, and still this is in question, means the OP isn't really here to have a discussion.

Its an argument, a troll, as many of us have called him/her out on.

[zapphoman24]

I totally agree that characters from ME2 should of returned to the squad for ME3. I definitely wouldn't replace Tali with any of them, but I would of loved to have Grunt instead of Vega. Or Jack instead of EDI.

[Lazengan]

she's too young. Schoolgirl romance on a high ranking Alliance Commander

[Shajar]

Tali is interesting unlike Liara. Tali is very deeply written and is still same character. You should make thread how to write Liara, character changes in every game just to keep her in plot someway, really badly done imo.

Anyway, troll thread is troll thread. Or just bad hate

[Edolix]

There are a lot of excellent posts here that counter the OP's arguments as to why Tali's a bad character. @Theodoro, for example. I honestly couldn't have put it better myself. +1 to you.

Yet why do I get the impression that the OP is completely ignoring these points?

[Theodoro]

Shajar wrote...

Tali is interesting unlike Liara. Tali is very deeply written and is still same character. You should make thread how to write Liara, character changes in every game just to keep her in plot someway, really badly done imo.

Anyway, troll thread is troll thread. Or just bad hate

I love it how you call that guy a troll after the reasons you gave for liking Tali. Seriously, can't you think of anything more constructive with which you would protect your favorite character without bashing on others instead?

Modifié par Theodoro, 04 juin 2012 - 02:58 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Diana Allers. /end thread

[Pride Demon]

Arlionis wrote...

For a character that was shoved down our throats in all the Mass Effect games it's frustrating to see how not only her progression (if there's any) is almost non-existent but also so and erratic in nature. 

In the first game she's a talking codex entry, nothing else. In the second game she was inserted as the "virginal romance option" for male Shepard (which, to be honest, is as creepy as it gets because the whole thing just feels like a reenactment of a middle aged high-school professor taking advantage of some confused, dumb student) and the "development" attempt with her was to shown she was a Geth hating racist even after meeting Legion and finding out not all Geth were the same and, oh, and her whole "daddy issues" complex. 

Now my beef is with ME3. I mean, considering that she talked to Legion like you have, considering  she knows the motivations of the Geth like you do, considering that all the Quarians know exactly what happened during the Morning War, etc. her prejudice against the Geth "you cannot choose the Geth over my people" (as if the Quarians were in some capacity innately superior to the Geth) is just 100% indefensible.

Now, you can say: "but her racism makes her flawed,  and that adds deep to her!" that would be true if that racism/xenophobia were consistent, if during the first part of ME3 she hadn't shown signs of "befriending" Legion or gaining a "new understanding" of the Geth. The emotional and personality "flip-flopping" and that constant and unpredictable shifting of positions show how poorly constructed as a character she is. One example of this would be her voting stance regarding going to war against the Geth in ME3, she votes in favour or against it depending what you said to the admirals during her ME2 loyalty mission, zero personality of her own. 

In short, it's a shame that so many development resources were wasted in such a bland character when Miranda, Jack, Samara, and well, any of ME2 cast, would have been more interesting for ME3 as a squad member. 

You are entitled to your opinion. But I don't understand the portion I bolded, and how it's supposed to show her "flip-flopping" character development...
Speaking from a logical point of view, considering her species was faced with annihilation at the moment she say that, it'll frankly raise some serious doubts regarding Tali's sanity if she has simply said "Damn, updating the code would make the geth destroy my entire race! But I'm good, go ahead... They are stupid anyway..."

Seriously, what did you expect her to say given the circumstances?

[MegaBadExample]

Shajar wrote...

Tali is interesting unlike Liara. Tali is very deeply written and is still same character. You should make thread how to write Liara, character changes in every game just to keep her in plot someway, really badly done imo.

Anyway, troll thread is troll thread. Or just bad hate

You just hated on Liara right there, and also called Ashley biatch about four minutes ago in another thread....

Who's the troll again?

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 04 juin 2012 - 03:08 .