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Mass Effect, Bioware and homosexuality - how can it be better?


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#26
Karrie788

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ReggarBlane wrote...
Forgot about Thane.

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.

Very true.

Yet you don't see that many homosexual relationships outside of Shep's romance possibilities. There's that human woman and her asari mistress in ME3 and another human soldier after the Cerberus coup that mentions her wife on Thessia I think... I can't remember any other... unless you count exclusively asari relationships like Benezia and Aethyta (correct me if I spelt it wrong).

Modifié par Karrie788, 04 juin 2012 - 04:21 .


#27
Terrorize69

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ReggarBlane wrote...

Karrie788 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Yet, that assumes there are quite a significantly (very heavily) larger percentage of people today that are closeted.

Well it's obviously getting better, but it's still hard to naturally come out of the closet - at least to everyone. You tell the ones you trust and whom you know are not going to have a problem with it, but it's still nearly impossible to just casually drop that you like both genders or your own gender, regardless of who's listening.

Plus I don't remember seeing tons of homosexual/bisexual characters in ME? I could be wrong though.

Edit: Well... Thane was married too.

Forgot about Thane.

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.

You forget that they live in a Galaxy populated by the Asari, ofcourse the % will be high, should be higher lol. Wheres my Bi Tali! :crying:

#28
EricHVela

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Karrie788 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...
Forgot about Thane.

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.

Very true.

Yet you don't see that many homosexual relationships outside of Shep's romance possibilities. There's that human woman and her asari mistress in ME3 and another human soldier after the Cerberus coup that mentions her wife on Thessia I think... I can't remember any other... unless you count exclusively asari relationships like Benezia and Aethyta (correct me if I spelt it wrong).

But I am referencing the chances that Shepard has of this. Shepard's odds are quite higher than what makes sense (especially when there are so few outside of Shepard's circle of friends).

I also recall the Human woman wanting to break up with her male partner for an Asari (who was unaware that their relationship had gone further for the Human than her and was breaking up the woman and her guy).

#29
EricHVela

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Terrorize69 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Karrie788 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Yet, that assumes there are quite a significantly (very heavily) larger percentage of people today that are closeted.

Well it's obviously getting better, but it's still hard to naturally come out of the closet - at least to everyone. You tell the ones you trust and whom you know are not going to have a problem with it, but it's still nearly impossible to just casually drop that you like both genders or your own gender, regardless of who's listening.

Plus I don't remember seeing tons of homosexual/bisexual characters in ME? I could be wrong though.

Edit: Well... Thane was married too.

Forgot about Thane.

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.

You forget that they live in a Galaxy populated by the Asari, ofcourse the % will be high, should be higher lol. Wheres my Bi Tali! :crying:

Yet, there are only two Asari in that list (if Samara/Morinth count as one).


Hvlukas wrote...

Cortez's husband story was the only thing that bothered me a little. He JUST lost his beloved husband, and now he's sleeping with gay Shepard? That seemed a little quick, no?

Cortez lost his husband at Ferris Fields. Four crewman in ME2 remark about the incident. If ME3 starts about a year after ME2 ends, there's that.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 04:27 .


#30
Karrie788

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ReggarBlane wrote...
But I am referencing the chances that Shepard has of this. Shepard's odds are quite higher than what makes sense (especially when there are so few outside of Shepard's circle of friends).

I also recall the Human woman wanting to break up with her male partner for an Asari (who was unaware that their relationship had gone further for the Human than her and was breaking up the woman and her guy).

I was agreeing with you regarding Shep's possibilities, sorry if I was confusing, I was just commenting that the player didn't seem to run into many other homosexual couples compared to his/her own possibilities.

#31
Terrorize69

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ReggarBlane wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Karrie788 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Yet, that assumes there are quite a significantly (very heavily) larger percentage of people today that are closeted.

Well it's obviously getting better, but it's still hard to naturally come out of the closet - at least to everyone. You tell the ones you trust and whom you know are not going to have a problem with it, but it's still nearly impossible to just casually drop that you like both genders or your own gender, regardless of who's listening.

Plus I don't remember seeing tons of homosexual/bisexual characters in ME? I could be wrong though.

Edit: Well... Thane was married too.

Forgot about Thane.

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.

You forget that they live in a Galaxy populated by the Asari, ofcourse the % will be high, should be higher lol. Wheres my Bi Tali! :crying:

Yet, there are only two Asari in that list (if Samara/Morinth count as one).

100% of our Asari team members, which kinda proves my point about a Galaxy being more bi inclinded cause of the Asari.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 04 juin 2012 - 04:30 .


#32
EricHVela

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My bad. If I counted Samara/Morith as one, it should be
7 out of 14 not 15.

5 of those are Human. Out of the Human options only, that's 5 out of 7 Humans.

Terrorize69 wrote...

100% of our Asari team members, which kinda proves my point about a Galaxy being more bi inclinded cause of the Asari.

So, 71% of the Humans in Shepard's crew are supposed to have same-sex options?

It doesn't work that way.

It could be coincidence, but that's a striking coincidence.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 04:34 .


#33
Terrorize69

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ReggarBlane wrote...

My bad. If I counted Samara/Morith as one, it should be
7 out of 14 not 15.

5 of those are Human. Out of the Human options only, that's 5 out of 7 Humans.

Terrorize69 wrote...

100% of our Asari team members, which kinda proves my point about a Galaxy being more bi inclinded cause of the Asari.

So, 71% of the Humans in Shepard's crew are supposed to have same-sex options?

It doesn't work that way.

It could be coincidence, but that's a striking coincidence.

You only need to look at todays socicity to get your answer, with all the rights S/S marriages and relations have got recently, and how many more people are bi then there used to be. BW have slapped on 150 years and came up with this. And tbf with the rate that people are becoming more open minded about it etc, this is porberly what the 22nd century will look like.

#34
EricHVela

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I would have taken out Allers and Traynor as same-sex options and probably let Kaidan's romance be hetro (even though there's evidence showing it might not have started that way in ME1). If Asari count as same-sex women, they count as same-sex women. Plenty of that around on their part. Humans, however, are a different animal.

I would also have put in some crewmembers that had current families and unavailable for romance to cut back on some of the strange availability of swingin' single characters -- maybe Traynor have her own woman somewhere.

Cortez? No change. He stays available as a gay relationship. One year all alone and a special guy finally comes along? Makes sense to me. The only issue I have is that Shepard has to say he's been waiting for the right man even if he's romanced women in previous games. I would find a different way to get around that in such a scenario.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 04:52 .


#35
EricHVela

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Terrorize69 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

My bad. If I counted Samara/Morith as one, it should be
7 out of 14 not 15.

5 of those are Human. Out of the Human options only, that's 5 out of 7 Humans.

Terrorize69 wrote...

100% of our Asari team members, which kinda proves my point about a Galaxy being more bi inclinded cause of the Asari.

So, 71% of the Humans in Shepard's crew are supposed to have same-sex options?

It doesn't work that way.

It could be coincidence, but that's a striking coincidence.

You only need to look at todays socicity to get your answer, with all the rights S/S marriages and relations have got recently, and how many more people are bi then there used to be. BW have slapped on 150 years and came up with this. And tbf with the rate that people are becoming more open minded about it etc, this is porberly what the 22nd century will look like.

There's a difference between becoming bi and coming out. You're suggesting that more and more people are going to become gay or bi.

71% is an unrealistically optimistic view of a species that has an affinity for reproduction. There's no way around it. It's just too high for Humans, even in the future.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 juin 2012 - 04:48 .


#36
Hvlukas

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Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .


#37
Terrorize69

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ReggarBlane wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

My bad. If I counted Samara/Morith as one, it should be
7 out of 14 not 15.

5 of those are Human. Out of the Human options only, that's 5 out of 7 Humans.

Terrorize69 wrote...

100% of our Asari team members, which kinda proves my point about a Galaxy being more bi inclinded cause of the Asari.

So, 71% of the Humans in Shepard's crew are supposed to have same-sex options?

It doesn't work that way.

It could be coincidence, but that's a striking coincidence.

You only need to look at todays socicity to get your answer, with all the rights S/S marriages and relations have got recently, and how many more people are bi then there used to be. BW have slapped on 150 years and came up with this. And tbf with the rate that people are becoming more open minded about it etc, this is porberly what the 22nd century will look like.

There's a difference between becoming bi and coming out. You're suggesting that more and more people are going to become gay or bi.

71% is an unrealistically optimistic view of a species that has an affinity for reproduction. There's no way around it. It's just too high for Humans, even in the future.

What im suggesting is that more and more people will become open minded to the idea.

In an overpopluated world, I wouldn't be surprised if one day reproduction took a back seat.

#38
Hvlukas

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Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .


#39
nos_astra

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Hm, I think it's kind of weird that so many people think the sexual orientation/sexuality of a person is a big character defining issue. Is it?

I thought it was petty obvious that Bioware just want to open up as many romantic options as possible for all players without having to add tons of new characters. Their best option is to make existing/planned characters available for everyone.

It's also kind of silly people get so worked up about straight/bi/gay when 4 out of 5 alien squadmates across the trilogy are willing to start a relationship with Shepard. (Tali, Liara, Garrus, Thane, Wrex) That's 80%. *cough* Edit: I forgot Samara/Morinth.

I'm all for characters who refuse to be romanced ... because they'e not into humans, because they prefer men/women, because they prefer being single, because you're just not their type (which is actually severly lacking and much more of a problem than characters being technically bi for the player's convenience).

I thought Kaidan's "change of heart" worked quite well (well, if you can ignore the "you and Liara, but she's a woman" line from ME1, which I can). He's a career soldier in the 22nd century, an L2 biotic who mostly keeps to himself and doesn't easily make friends. It's unsurpising that you weren't informed about every sordid detail of his sex life. Rahna was little more than a high school crush at the age of 17. In ME1 he's 32, in ME3 he's 35. Plenty of time and opportunity.

Obviously, it's not that hard to create characters who are not defined by their sexuality.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2012 - 06:27 .


#40
Hvlukas

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Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .


#41
AmyMac

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I think you all are reading way, way, too much in this. Having characters available to romance a protagonist of either gender doesn't necessarily make them bisexual, it's just allowing the player to define more of the game.
It's been said a million times, but since some people just can't seem to get the point: a specific character (let's use Kaidan!) being bi/gay in someone else's playthrough who romanced him as Sheploo doesn't make him any less straight in a playthrough where he's romanced as Femshep.
Furthermore, with the exception of ONE line from Kaidan, which you only get if you are female and have been flirting with both him and Liara in the first game, sexual orientation is rarely mentioned. Cortez doesn't say that he's gay, he mentions that he had a husband. Traynor hits on EDI (lol). Jack says "boyfriend or girlfriend" pretty matter-of-factly, as though sexuality was just a random, trivial personality aspect.
Characters don't need to have their sexuality written in as a major part of their personality to be able to be bi/gay.

Modifié par AmyMac, 04 juin 2012 - 06:19 .


#42
Hvlukas

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Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .


#43
AmyMac

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Hvlukas wrote...
As for the bolded part - that's actually essentially my problem with Kaiden's bisexuality. It's not not really reading too much into it, as much as it is about a personal, individual (in this case homosexual) response to who the character is portrayed to be. There's heteronormativity to the way Kaiden don't talk about men, but about Rahna, a girl from his past. I just don't understand why female character's are allowed to be bisexuals, while male aren't, that is - a character who is who he is, even before I choose.

And again - it is not for the sake of the character's that their sexuality needs definition (a definition needs not to be more, than a female Shepard hitting on Jacob and getting the "No, I'm not into girls", or a hint of a same-sex relationship in the past), but for the sake of indentification between the gamer and the character. The main focus here should be the game, since all emotional responses and attachments begins in his or her head depending on what characters he or she identifies with.

I know that since it's the topic of the thread, that sexuality gets pushed forward as a "thing", but I hope it doesn't get confused with a will to generally speaking in the Mass Effect games push sexuality as-a-subject-of-character to the forefront. That's hardly want I personally would want. Sexuality has its place, and if done proper, it's actually just a little nuance to a character.

The topic is mostly: How can it be done better in the future?

Stereotype much? Despite what the rainbow-flag-waving people would have you believe, most gay people don't really make a point of talking about their sexuality; it's not a defining characteristic of who they are.
I hardly ever talk about girls IRL, does that make me straight? My best friend in high school was a guy, so if I said something about him along the lines of "XXXX meant a lot to me, sometimes I really miss him" would you interpret that as an indication that I was romantically interested in him?

I think that making characters generally available to protagonists of both gender, in fact, is the way to go (though I never played DA2 and never will), because it lets the player have some control over the world. It doesn't mean they're bi, it just gives the player the opportunity to help define them, which, in a true RPG, isn't/wouldn't be a bad thing. What makes or breaks the believability of a character's romantic interest in the protagonist or sexuality is if they are over the top with it (like, if they'd made Cortez have a lisp, that would have been too much, IMO) or if they made the character all like "I never would have thought of this before, but you're just so enthralling..." *cough*garrusandtali*cough*

Have a simple, obvious dialogue option where the player can initiate a romance (so sexually insecure high school boys don't have to worry about their male character getting hit on by a dude, because OMFG that would ruin their gaming experience!), and leave it at that.

Modifié par AmyMac, 04 juin 2012 - 06:57 .


#44
BP93

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Hvlukas wrote...



The topic is mostly: How can it be done better in the future?


Simple: Don't over-do it. Bioware did.

- ME1, you had Liara. That's it.
- ME2, you had Kelly (and Liara, depending if you had LotSB and romanced her in ME1). That's it.
- ME3, you have Traynor, Kaidan, Liara, Cortez, and Allers. They had more gay/bi characters in ME3 than they did in the previous two games COMBINED.

The only straight characters were Ashley, Garrus, and Tali as far as the Normandy crew. There's only 3 straight crewmates in ME3 compared to ME2, where almost everyone was straight. I don't know their exact intentions, but Bioware tried a little too hard to appease to that orientation. Femshep players only get one straight romance (Garrus). WTF is that? You get Kaidan too, I guess but my point still stands.

I personally could care less about someone's orientation (and I'm a registered Republican, so there goes your stereotype) and what they do but even if your playing as a straight character, the amount of...gay vibes... you get from other characters is quite frankly astonishing. I mean Cortez basically crying because he lost his husband and essentially turning to you and saying "Woe is me"? He's so incredibly cliched it's not even funny. Gay guy who cries because he lost his partner, emotionally hurt, and then gets all close with Shepard, even if your a straight Shepard? OK.

Modifié par BP93, 04 juin 2012 - 07:10 .


#45
nos_astra

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BP93 wrote...
I personally could care less about someone's orientation...

That's obviously not true for game characters where it does seem to bother you quite a lot.

Also, did you just mock Cortez because losing his husband did bother him and :huh: insinuate that this was somehow exemplary for a gay character?

#46
BP93

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klarabella wrote...

BP93 wrote...
I personally could care less about someone's orientation...

That's obviously not true for game characters where it does seem to bother you quite a lot.

Also, did you just mock Cortez because losing his husband did bother him and :huh: insinuate that this was somehow exemplary for a gay character?


Huh? I'm talking about how poorly Bioware handled the characters themselves. Cortez could have had a far more interesting story line than just "I lost my husband and now I'm here". At least Traynor was somewhat interesting, a lab rat that is now basically your Shadow Broker (Liara, you're terrible at your job). Her putting down MaleShep is done very well and actually caught me off guard my first time playing where as Cortez was basically thrown in your face as (hey, I'm gay). It should have been more subtle, hell like Kaidan's was. He's a shuttle pilot, something that we never had in ME2, so Bioware could have easily done without it again. They even make Vega the pilot during the Mars mission so what's the point of him being there aside from being a gay romance? I don't see a reason. He's not relevant to the story in any way other than that, unlike Traynor.

#47
Sperizer

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ReggarBlane wrote...

Liara counts as bi (regardless of the technicalities -- Kaidan can even comment on this).
Kaidan is bi.
Kelly is bi.
Samara/Morinth is by. (I'm counting them as one.)
Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.
Allers is bi.

7 out of 15. That's 47% chance of Shepard running into someone that can have same-sex relationships. That seems a bit high IMHO.


When you count Asari, of course the number will be higher since your combining human and asari sexuality rates-- which messes up statistics since Asari are practically all bisexual.

And then you have the straight side, which includes drell and turians. So basically, you're combining the sexuality rates of a total of 4 species. You can't assume that species other than humans would have the same sexuality rates.

So, in that, I believe the sexuality rates are realistic. Maybe a little high in humans, but hey, every once in a while you will get a little over or a little below the average 1/10..as you can't always be the average number, and there are outliers.

#48
AmyMac

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@ BP93, don't you have to ask him about his family to get him to mention his husband? I thought Traynor was just "meh," but then again that was how I felt about most of the characters in ME3.

#49
Tiberis

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AmyMac wrote...
Have a simple, obvious dialogue option where the player can initiate a romance (so sexually insecure high school boys don't have to worry about their male character getting hit on by a dude, because OMFG that would ruin their gaming experience!), and leave it at that.

Lol, this is so funny and true.

I do agree with most of the OP. I think the problem is that the game is developed around a heteronormative ideology regardless of the inclusion of s/s people or relationships. All three games you often see women in skimpy clothes (Miranda anyone?); there is plentiful eyecandy for the straight male audience. This is carried through into the characters themselves. Everyone likes to say that Kaidan didn't show "signs" of being bi or gay and that he didn't say anything indicative of homosexuality. Well how can he? You don't see a lot of male eyecandy, nothing for him or anyone to comment on. All of the bars/clubs in the ME games show female or asari dancers, no men. Like most media, the main audience is straight men. In ME2 they did put some things for straight females, but not a lot.

I don't think we need everyone to be bi; even for the sake of gameplay it's just unattractive. I also don't think every gay/bi/lesbian character needs to be romanceable; you don't see homosexual male characters outside of the Normandy (wtf?). The sexuality of a character shouldn't to be a central crux; like how Jack nonchalantly mentions "like a boyfriend or girlfriend?" or how Cortez simply mentions his husband. Traynor seems to beat around the bush until the chess scene, even then if you already romanced someone you can't get the dialogue where she clearly mentions it. But it doesn't always need to be mentioned. There should be a system where you can pick dialogue that clearly leads toward a romance, not necessarily romantic dialogue, but something to let the character eventually tell you if he/she is interested or not. You can find out later if that person is gay/lesbian, just like in real life; if you go up to a guy and flirt, he would simply say he's not interested and life goes on.

There doesn't need to be extensive "this guy/girl is a ******!" dialogue and clues. In a galaxy hundreds of years in the future where interspecies sex is tolerated, sexuality is gray. Reproduction is no longer the focus; especially since children can apparently be made by a single person (Miranda's father?). Gays/lesbians/bis/transgendered would all be normalized. Remember in the in pre 20th century, people with black or brown skin were considered lesser and the thought of them being in normal white society made most cringe. Today that is no longer the case. It took time, but all human "races" are now normalized. Society is now working towards normalizing homosexuality, as it should be. And by the time ME takes place, this has been long done.

#50
Guest_OneWomanArmy_*

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I can see what you mean about Kaidan mentioning having a boyfriend, I just think that would be a problem because as it is now he can be straight in some sheps worlds and bi in the worlds of the sheps who desires it, otherwise if he mentions boyfriend in female world then EVERY shep has to have him as bi and that would only cater to the bi audience, did I make sence? :-)

Modifié par OneWomanArmy, 04 juin 2012 - 10:18 .