78 réponses à ce sujet

[legbamel]

You're looking at this from a "realistic" standpoint rather than a "fan service" standpoint. When BioWare makes a character strictly gay or straight the first thing they get is a thread with a million posts demanding that they make that character available as a romance option for the same/opposite gender PC. They get crap for making Kaidan bi/gay (depending how you define it) and they get crap for not doing the same for Ash, then they get crap for giving Fem!Shep too many same-sex romance options and not enough straight men for her to screw.

Their whole interest is in offering player's the choice of who they want their PC to romance. Can they make orientation more of a factor in NPC dialogue? Sure. But if I were them I'd rather keep such discussions relatively neutral and make the player pick whether the NPC is interested, much as they did in DA for Fenris, with whom you had to initiate things with the flirt options.

As a rule, your PC has a whole lot more to worry about than clarifying the sexual orientation/identification of every crew member or companion you encounter just in case you might want to sleep with one of them.

[Made Nightwing]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Homosexual characters were more or less well done. No bi characters please, or at least, if they're bi, have it written in as being part of their character, not some Shepard/Hawke-sexual thing like DA2. ******/bi sexuality is not common, so it shouldn't be applied to every single freaking love interest.

In the ME universe it's very common lol and promoted heavily by the Asari race lol.

And in case you weren't playing the game, the asari are mono-gendered. When you only have one sex, it doesn't count as ******-sexuality. Welcome to logic.

[Foxhound2121]

Hvlukas wrote...

 

*  I’d dictate, since now that I was dictator of Bioware, to please let those bisexual characters acknowledge their own sexuality. Don’t let a future Kaiden or Ashley never speak of their past. Let them own up to their personalities and orientations. This is a thing that -to me- is very important as a player, when absorbing the universe and recognizing that the universe created is inclusive, since nobody is hiding in any closets.

No, I don't agree with this at all. Their sexuality is none of your business or shouldn't be a pressured topic in a friendship unless it makes sense. You're just asking for homosexual conversations at random moments. I really respect Kaiden's sex life, but I don't think it is any of my business. Apparently, Kaiden feels the same way.

Steve was done well because someone just died, but what you're asking for is characters revealing how they twist and turn and go bump in the night regardless of any other plot actions or character dispostion. I liked it more when he became my best buddy without any awkward sex conversations.

Some characters are more scandalous and lurid than others like Jack, but that is because it fits and makes sense. Homosexual characters don't need to be any more revealing than a straight character. Kaiden is not that type of guy that tells you what he finds attractive unless it fits, and I like him the way he is.

I support more Kaidens though and less Jacks. I was so annoyed that I couldn't interrupt her from slapping shep.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 05 juin 2012 - 12:02 .

[Russalka]

Made Nightwing wrote...
And in case you weren't playing the game, the asari are mono-gendered. When you only have one sex, it doesn't count as ******-sexuality. Welcome to logic.

Biologically, they are female. Shepard would have to be attracted to women to like Asari. Therefore it would be a lesbian relationship.

[kaymarierose]

Honestly I liked the way that DA2 handled relationships. Its more choice for the player. For example, my romance option is Miranda, therefore I play as Sheploo. However, I would like the option to romance her as F!Shep as well. Not that I would play as a F!Shep because I think Sheploo's VA is better and he is damn sexy, but to have the option to play as F!Shep and romance Miranda should be my choice. And it wouldn't affect anyone else unless they pursue the relationship, as all romance opportunities are optional anyway.

My point being, I would like to be able to romance whoever I want, regardless of the gender I choose to play as. These games are all about choice, I don't see the issues with opening up the romance options to everyone.

Modifié par kaymarierose, 05 juin 2012 - 02:30 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[nos_astra]

Hvlukas wrote...
To me, dealing with one's sexuality is essentially at one point the same as accepting to stand out and daring to do that in a not neccesarily accepting environment. And therefore I'd find it appealing in characters if they to had the balls to accept who they were and not just be bi-in-disguise.

That would be because today it takes balls to be who you are. Now imagine if it just was a non-issue because you know no one cares if you are into men, women or aliens.

It's just a bit of personal information that may or may not come up at some point. Just like my preference for food or a hobby might come up or not. Your sexual orientation usually doesn't show like so many things that determine who you are.

Modifié par klarabella, 05 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[nos_astra]

Hvlukas wrote...
My point was also mostly this: Because it matters to the players, it should be reflected in the game. I'd like to live in an utopia, but I don't and therefore seeing queer characters in movies, games, television ect. actually matters to me. The games are after all build to be played by today's audience, and not the people who live in the reality of the Mass Effect universe.

See, and that's the point I believe Bioware is trying to make. They make characters available for everyone who wants to romance them because they don't see merits in restricting this. If player sensibilities are hurt because the sexual orientation is kind of a big deal to them when it shouldn't be ... well, not Bioware's problem.

I think their stance is pretty much: Deal with it.

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[Blacklash93]

I think they should make characters with defined sexualities. Bioware games are story-heavy and often charcter-driven and the company has said on the record multiple times that games *can* be on par with movies and books in storytelling. If that's the goal and style they desire then making character traits subject to the players' whims isn't going to fly.

That's the only reason I oppose the all bi thing. Developers with certain things in mind are usually better suited to approach things a particular way. Realism is quite relevant in these cases. Not for all, mind you, as there are a few games where lifting restrictions even at the cost of believability is appropriate.

In games like Skyrim, where everything revolves around defining your character and not the supporting cast I have no problem with the "all bi" approach. Skyrim deliberately isn't trying to be your standard brand of deep and in-depth storytelling along with movies and books and the world and its options exist to define the PC via RP and serve no other purpose. Marriagable NPCs are also bit-roles and are ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things so them all being bi is much more tolerable and appropriate.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[MACharlie1]

I've said this before several times and nobody has ever commented but c'est la vie. i'm going to keep saying it until someone listens.

Make all characters bi. BUT make some characters more difficult to romance by male/female player. Lets take Cortez, Kaidan and Vega:

Cortez sits on the far end of the homosexual spectrum, as does (as far as we can tell) Vega. Kaidan sits in the middle. Kaidan responds equally to the advances of man/femShep.

Vega and Cortez however requires more persuasion to flip for ManShep (Vega) and FemShep (Cortez). Whether that be an extra line of dialog with Paragon/Renegade options. You have to give them something very specific. The dialog track must be followed in ONE singular way...you can't flirt with anyone else before trying to get with either. Etc....

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[MACharlie1]

Hvlukas wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

I've said this before several times and nobody has ever commented but c'est la vie. i'm going to keep saying it until someone listens.

Make all characters bi. BUT make some characters more difficult to romance by male/female player. Lets take Cortez, Kaidan and Vega:

Cortez sits on the far end of the homosexual spectrum, as does (as far as we can tell) Vega. Kaidan sits in the middle. Kaidan responds equally to the advances of man/femShep.

Vega and Cortez however requires more persuasion to flip for ManShep (Vega) and FemShep (Cortez). Whether that be an extra line of dialog with Paragon/Renegade options. You have to give them something very specific. The dialog track must be followed in ONE singular way...you can't flirt with anyone else before trying to get with either. Etc....

I'm not sure it would be realistically  plausible to do in a game. Plus, personally, I like the idea that some characters are just not in to you. Heck, for my sake, you could add a homophobic character to the cast of squad members, hit on him/her and see how aggravatingly difficult team play could get afterwards. 

Worked with Sebastian.  Albeit it was JUST FemShep. Sebastian would only romance if you didn't flirt with anyone else by the third act of the game - never mind have a sex scene with anybody.

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[nos_astra]

I suppose he means Sebastian Vael, a DLC character for Dragon Age 2. A priest. He was technically straight but had a colorful past (like Jack who talks about boyfriends and girlfriends but is only available for MShep Edit: I was told that this is not true.). You could kind of romance him but it didn't go very far. No kissing, no inappropriate touching and an unusual way to show your commitment (joining the clergy or a political union).

It's not true that you can't flirt with anyone. He basically works like the ME3 romances ... the point of no return is reached when you sleep with anyone and he automatically reverts to friend/rival.

Modifié par klarabella, 05 juin 2012 - 05:18 .

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[Foxhound2121]

Hvlukas wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Hvlukas wrote...
[...]

No, I don't agree with this at all. Their sexuality is none of your business or shouldn't be a pressured topic in a friendship unless it makes sense. You're just asking for homosexual conversations at random moments. I really respect Kaiden's sex life, but I don't think it is any of my business. Apparently, Kaiden feels the same way.

[..]

Some characters are more scandalous and lurid than others like Jack, but that is because it fits and makes sense. Homosexual characters don't need to be any more revealing than a straight character. Kaiden is not that type of guy that tells you what he finds attractive unless it fits, and I like him the way he is.

I support more Kaidens though and less Jacks. I was so annoyed that I couldn't interrupt her from slapping shep.

I think you have some good points - and I can only answer from my own experience, when I say that I think that some heterosexuals seem allergic to a guy sayin "he" about a loved one or a girl saying "she" about a loved one, without realizing how often they themselves actually flashes and advertises their own heterosexuality. I'm not saying you do this, but I've found it to be true depressingly often in the real world.
And I think non-heterosexual people are usually extremely well tuned to detect small words like "he" and "she", because many have to be carefull about saying "he/she" in public about a "partner", to not end up in a effed up situation. And because of that, those words mean a great deal to people who aren't "normal".

I agree though,  character's sexuality shouldn't be in the forefront of who they are. It should only matter if A) you want them or if you've played the game well enough to become friends with them.

That's not what I typed at all. It has nothing to do with the political correctness or society today, but rather what makes sense in the story. Your final thoughts are off as well.

The correction I would make is: It should only matter if A) the character stays in role and his or her designed disposition the current conversation has been initiated or plot flags.

Take notice that A can and probably will override B. But A should always be first and foremost.

What that means is that Jack is going to tell you she wants to get laid regardless of what you do. Kaiden would be acting out of character if he did the same.

Some characters are more reserved and don't talk about sexual things unless it fits in the story or the plot flags. You might as well take a flame to the script if you want every character to talk about sex.

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[draken-heart]

DA2 romances were the result of complaints about DA:O

"I cannot romance Morrigan on my Female Warden" BW goes and "Here's Merrill for your female Hawkes."
"I want Alistair for my male warden" BW says "Take this elven warrior with your male Hawkes"

if you all want Homos flying around all over the place, read modern-age of DC comics, they are full of gay/lesbian characters.

anyways, there is no way to fix the romances in ME, stick with one straight, one Bi-sexual, and one homosexual character per gender of Shepard, people complain. Make all LIs available to both genders of Shepards, people complain.

[dgcatanisiri]

Honestly, I liked the DA2 all-bi approach, because it was the first time that there were really same-sex OPTIONS. I actually find the fact that Alistair and Morrigan aren't same-sex romanceable to run counter to their characters - Alistair's never been loved before period and Morrigan sees sex as a tool to be used, I don't see why they are locked to a single gender (you know, like how Jack casually mentions having had sex with women before, but can't be romanced by Fem!Shep), because it doesn't seem to fit them. But it's the options thing that get to me. If you want to play a gay hero, until DA2, there weren't choices, it was romance Sky in Jade Empire or Zevran in DAO or get nothing. I liked Sky, but my first instinct with Zevran is to kill him - he attacks me and mine on the order of our sworn enemy, he suffers the consequences. And his personality, at least until you dig down, is one that turns me off completely. Once I got some more characterization out of him, yes, I came to like him, but if I hadn't known going in that he was the only choice available if I wanted to play a gay Warden (because I like picturing my Wardens, Shepards, Hawkes, et cetera as me in those worlds), I wouldn't have dug or even let him live. It hampers my enjoyment because I have to take myself out of the game to romance Zevran. Ask one of my friends, I get SERIOUSLY inside the heads of my Shepards and my Hawkes, but not my Wardens, and it's because I have to break the character I'm developing in the name of getting a romance. So I like the fact that it offers choices.

If that means that, in the future, there would be like one gay guy, one bi guy, and one straight guy, I suppose I wouldn't mind it, or at least not let it bother me too much, even if I'd prefer to have a romance with the straight-exclusive option, but I basically think in terms of let the romances be open to everyone so they can choose who they want to be with, because I'm really not playing my games for realism, I'm playing them for my entertainment, and I want to be entertained by my game ending with my hero getting the guy of my choice in the end. So I don't see why having all LI's be open to the PC, regardless of gender is a bad thing, especially since I think it also allows both genders to get better friendship paths out of it because there needs to be non-romancable content for both genders, rather than just a male-romance, female-friendship and vice versa thing. It's one of the things that seriously bugs me about Dawn Star in Jade Empire, that a female PC gets her to talk about anecdotes from their time in Two Rivers throughout the game, but a male PC just gets her talking about how 'this is such a strange situation we're in, can you comfort me?' Or how if you shut a romance down early in the first two Mass Effects, you're essentially cheating yourself out of character development. I actually think all LI's being available for both genders improves their character development, at the least outside of the realm of their bedroom activities.

But as for how to make it better, one of the things I would have liked for ME3 would have been to have had some of the refugee couples on the Citadel be same-sex of both genders. There were two asari-female human couples, but the asari thing always strikes me as a cop out. I'd like more incidental same-sex pairings, like Wade and Herren in DAO or how flirting with either gender worked for the Warden/Hawke's attempts at subterfuge or something like that, just as a way of showing it exists in the rest of the world. Right now, Shepard aside, it's as if Kaidan and Cortez are the only men in the ME universe attracted to men.

[Tiberis]

MACharlie1 wrote...

I've said this before several times and nobody has ever commented but c'est la vie. i'm going to keep saying it until someone listens.

Make all characters bi. BUT make some characters more difficult to romance by male/female player. Lets take Cortez, Kaidan and Vega:

Cortez sits on the far end of the homosexual spectrum, as does (as far as we can tell) Vega. Kaidan sits in the middle. Kaidan responds equally to the advances of man/femShep.

Vega and Cortez however requires more persuasion to flip for ManShep (Vega) and FemShep (Cortez). Whether that be an extra line of dialog with Paragon/Renegade options. You have to give them something very specific. The dialog track must be followed in ONE singular way...you can't flirt with anyone else before trying to get with either. Etc....

This would be the only way I'd personally accept "everone is bi" thing for any game. I've mentioned this so many times that I think this far in the future, sexuality is fluid and gray and that sexuality is no longer defined as ****** or hetero. Sure preferences will still exist, but I think humans and society will have evolved past the definitions and preconceptions. Your idea is perfect to represent this and it could easily be turned into a nice character-story arc.

[Hvlukas]

Modifié par Hvlukas, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .