52 réponses à ce sujet

[batlin]

Just curious, I hadn't seen any news about it in E3.

[Allan Schumacher]

These statements are not based in reality. The % of people that replay games is directly associated with how good the actual game is. As an example, I played Origins with over 20 characters and actually purchased it twice including all the dlc. Dragon Age 2? I played it once and never bought a single dlc. Mass Effect? God knows how many times. Mass Effect 3? Once (and will never touch it again).

Would you consider yourself a typical game player?

[Allan Schumacher]

That quote wasn't mine but it actually reflects my Bioware gaming experience pretty well (though I have to say I replayed DAII multiple times, but probably half as many times as I did DA:O).

I guess what I mean to say is that while we might not be "typical gamers" or part of the majority of your customers, we're still a legitimate part of your fan base that Bioware will, eventually lose if they can't make games that are they same quality we've come to expect and love from the company. I personally won't buy a game I don't expect to love enough to replay. I'll wait till I catch the flu and rent it, finish it in a few days, and call it 6 bucks well spent.

Playing with over 20 characters and purchasing the game twice is certainly an indicator that someone likes DAO, but I don't think it's a reasonably fair metric for how quality the game necessarily is.

Because someone only plays through the game once doesn't really give any information on whether or not that person found the game to be quality unless you start to examine other factors. I interpreted Tesclo's statement as a refutation that the idea that most people don't replay games is not actually the case, to which he then provided an anecdote based upon his own gaming experiences.

I don't even know that I've played any game close to 10 times. Fallout is probably the closest to it, but I'd probably guess maybe 6 times (in large part because it's a shorter game). As for other games:

BG: *didn't finish*
BG2: 2 times
KOTOR: 2 times
Vampire: Bloodlines: 3 times
Half-Life: 3 times
Half-Life 2: 2 times
Alpha Protocol: 3 times
Deus Ex: 3 times
ME1: 2 times
ME2: 1 time
ME3: 1 time
Ultima 7: 1 time
DAO: 1 time
PST: 1 time


My favourite game on that list is Planescape: Torment, and I only recall completing it once.

So for you, yeah hopefully the next BioWare game is one you'll want to replay 20 times, since that seems to be an acceptable measure of quality for you. I don't think it gives any indication on whether or not most people do or do not replay games (especially when hypothesizing about used game sales)

[Allan Schumacher]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think replaying the game requires you finish it.  I've played Baldur's Gate's first 5 chapters several times, and its first 3 chapters probably 20 times.  But I've never actually seen the end.

Similarly, I've only finished DAO once so far, but I've played 12 different characters through Ostagar, and 6 of those have seen at least two of the main plot quests.

Between Ultima Underworld (1992) and KotOR (2003), I finished 0 games (I later went back and finished NWN).  But I replayed many of them many times.

Well in that case, I replayed DAO and DA2 hundreds of times....

Though I understand your point, although I do think it requires some level of playtime.  Experimenting with which type of character I want at the beginning of FO1 doesn't constitute 20 different playthroughs.

Having said that, at best the numbers I gave will maybe go up 1 or 2 in some cases.  Sometimes still 0.

[Allan Schumacher]

Ukki wrote...
I do and I have similar backround. Though I have not bought ME3 (and probably will not ever), also replayed DA2 more than once (mostly out of boredom ).

Excellent!  Now my follow up question:  What constitutes a typical gamer? 

[Allan Schumacher]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Excellent!  Now my follow up question:  What constitutes a typical gamer? 

A typical gamer is anyone who buys and plays games.
... meaning that the meaning is very broad and hard to define. Which I think is your point, yes?

It reminds me of elementary/jr. high "Health" class whenever they talked about "average" vs "normal."  Because you may not be close to the average, doesn't mean that anything is abnormal.

Some people will identify more as an "RPG Gamer" or as an "FPS Gamer" while some will be just "Gamer."  I'm the type that loves great games, almost regardless of genre.  So I don't replay games a whole lot simply because time spent playing one game is time spent not playing another game.  For myself, that "first playthrough" is usually the most significant, so my replays often boil down to "There's nothing good out right now.  Lets pick up this old favourite and redo that one."

Some might find this paradoxical, but my favourite games are likely no where near close to my top contenders for "most time spent in game."  Even if I exclude MP games like Counterstrike, my biggest time sinks in gaming history are typically strategy games.  I'm sure I've lost more of my life to Sid Meier than any other person in my life, simply due to the nature of his games.  But while I love them, none of them have that "impact" factor that my favourites do.

But then, I'm the type of person that, after Fallout 3 was announced, was hoping it would be a kickass game, even if it wasn't like FO1/2.  Because I like to play kickass games, I hope every game is a kickass game when it's announced.  Sadly it isn't always.... haha.

In case people are wondering, my most looked forward to titles right now are Wasteland 2 and Firaxis' XCOM.  God help me if they both succeed in providing that open ended strategy AND the dynamite narrative that I love so much lol.

[Allan Schumacher]

Dakota Strider wrote...

A better question would be:  What constitutes a typical Dragon Age gamer?

Because I think a majority of them have played other Bioware fantasy rpg's, and prefer that type of genre over games that are more like action games or shooters.  There are of course many people that like other styles that play Dragon Age, but I am talking percentages of players.

I do feel that BioWare has a strong core, but my own personal experiences with people that have played BioWare games is probably still different than yours.  I'm hesitant to make any assumptions and am more inclined to state "I don't know" which is boring but prevents me from making incorrect conclusions.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 05 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

I'm very confused.

At what point do I give any indication that I'm not standing behind Dragon Age?  I'm also not sure why working at BioWare would require my favourite game to be made by the company that I work for.

[Allan Schumacher]

Again you assume that action fans WANT to RP a character at all. Many do not want to RP a character. Also please do not tell me what I want to do. I know what I want in a game much more than you do.

What exactly does it mean to roleplay a character?

[Allan Schumacher]

joshko wrote...

Ah Allan you sly dog!

I think it's not so much that they don't want to RP a character it's to what extent do they want to.

A die hard RP player will have no problem being forced to sleep at night and eat three times a day, but any one else probably wouldn't find that pleasent.

But that does not mean that any one else would not enjoy the more relaxed, and "fun" I suppose you could put it, forms of RPing (such as how you look or whether you want your one hander to be two or three times bigger than your body.)

Well, depending on what people mean by it, does a game like Baldur's Gate really require one to "roleplay" the game to enjoy it.  Same with a game like Planescape: Torment.  If you like reading (and can tolerate questionable combat...) it has a fantastic story.

[Allan Schumacher]

joshko wrote...
Well if you want to get super techincle the only true way to role play is to LARP .

Well, I guess it's just that I didn't even know that I was a roleplaying game fan until I played Ultima 6.  Though the first game I ever heard called an "RPG" is Final Fantasy 2/4 when my friend got it for SNES.

With Ultima 6, it was cool to run around and fight.  The conversation system was a bit clunky.  I loved the Medieval aspect of it, and the first PC I ever got was because I fell in love with Ultima 7 playing on a friend's computer.  I loved the character progression and the idea that I got more powerful as I completed objectives and killed bad guys.  Stuff like that haha.

[Allan Schumacher]

What people want in an RPG isn't an accurate approximation of life (like Heavy Rain, god forbid), what they want is player agency. That is, the ability to go about one's business unhindered by a railroaded plot.

This can't be the case with RPG players, otherwise some other group of non-RPG fans is what made games like Baldur's Gate successful. Neither Baldur's Gate game is particularly strong in player agency, while games such as Alpha Protocol or even Fallout were no where near the commercial success, in spite of having significantly improved player agency (and the reactivity to illustrate it.

The entire grassroots movement of RPGs don't adhere to such strict definitions.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bethesda makes games in a completely different subgenre. Maybe the TES sold so well because it was a "Better" game in some sense. Or they care more about quality. Or whatever.

I'm curious what a Venn diagram of COD players and Skyrim players looks like.

[Allan Schumacher]

I know that in my circle of RP gaming friends, the ones who also play shooters like Skyrim more than the ones who don't. Of course, the sample size there is rather small and useless for drawing conclusions.

Mine is similar as well. At least I successfully converted them to the superior Battlefield series (and I'm not just being a shill lol. I have always loved the BF games going back to BF1942 and love what BF does).

By the same token, I know some that don't care for BioWare games because their expectation of what an RPG is are Bethesda games.

I'm not a huge fan of Bethesda games, but I did enjoy Fallout 3 for what it provided (and I'm a huge fan of New Vegas... I need to pick up the DLCs for those and play Sawyer's mod...)

[Allan Schumacher]

Narrative intense games has this one very bad habit. Linearity or lack the sense of freedom to play the game on your own term due to too much handheld or railroaded plot. So once you competed a story there is little value to play again. There is no reason for you to be railroaded again. A problem that doesn't exist for people who enjoy Skyrim and CoD.

It's a problem that didn't seem to bother games like Final Fantasy 7 either though. Granted there was some goofy stuff that the player could do, but would it have been less well received had the Golden Saucer not existed in the game?

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't think cinematic approach is phenomenal and effective as the days of FF7 and FF8 anymore. We have recent titles heavily rely on cinematic storytelling like Jurassic Park: The Movie and Dead Island. Still, both are listed among 10 most disappointed games of the year, heavily critized for linearity.. In the end it's still FPS dominated the largest market segment. And Sykim look good to compete with them. Because Skyrim basically has the same element of FPS. Freedom and the feeling of being in the world as the character..

Dead Island is just a poor game, mired with a lot of technical issues that go way beyond linearity. I don't know enough about Jurassic Park though.

I'd also say that most FPS games today are exceptionally linear affairs, centered around flashy set pieces. The only thing non-linear about them is their multiplayer....

Linear games have been successful for decades and continue to be very successful.

[Allan Schumacher]

Would you say your base of hardcore Bioware fans expect linear games from you as a developer?

That is not related to the discussion that I was having, at which point someone said games like Skyrim are successful because they are non-linear, and gamers today don't like linear games. In fact, he cited linearity as being why other (non-BioWare) games are not successful.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fair enough... but it might tie back more to the concept of the OP, in questioning if Bioware is looking to expand and realign its fanbase for The Next Big Thing? 

Well, if you want to carry this on and make it a bit more on topic, I'll give that a whirl.  En garde.

For my first volley, is nonlinearity a trait that most of the BioWare fanbase highlights as their driving factors?  IMO, games like BG, BG2, KOTOR, all the ME games, DAO, and DA2 are still pretty linear game experiences.  KOTOR ME 1/2, and DAO do allow some level of variation in how the player can proceed through the story, and while I don't agree with it I can understand why people feel BG is a nonlinear game due to the open ended exploration allowed in the game.  But if you compare these games to any of the Elder Scrolls games, or other ones like Ultima, Fallout or Wasteland, I don't think BioWare's games offered as much non-linearity as many of these other games.

Though from my experiences, the games that are lauded as BioWare's greatest are typically either BG2 or KOTOR, and occasionally DAO.  All these games offer romances (which IMO are now also a requirement for any game we do going forward), and from KOTOR on they also started to become a lot more cinematic.


I think the defining trait for BioWare games has always been the story.  Some may just love a D&D combat romp (which many BioWare games are), but I think it's the story that makes the biggest impact with those that prefer BioWare over other RPG developers.  Most specifically (especially recently) I'd call out the characters.  A lot of time spent in BioWare games is spent in the conversations.

The interesting thing about the conversations is how, I feel, they can appeal to a variety of players.  Conversations are typically where the romance arcs exist.  Conversations is a way for the player to define their character in a roleplaying fashion.  Conversations are the primary way we drive our narrative.  These conversations exist as part of the story, but they still serve players that may prefer other aspects of the game rather than just story.

Aside from BG1, I don't know if I'd agree that BioWare's games are noted for any sort of non-linearity.  I'm sure some feel that's their best strength (especially within the context of still having a meaningful narrative), but I think the narrative itself is what draws most BioWare gamers in.  JMO.


At the same time, RPG gamers definitely show that they can appreciate a more open ended game world.  So while I wouldn't bet on any sort of Skyrim type seamless open world clone, but I think we'd be silly to not consider potential gains we might gain by looking at what other games have done well.  For example, what I really liked about Fallout 3 was it's ability to tell a story without saying any words.  Stumbling into a blown out house I find a skeleton in a bathtub.  But there's a knife through his ribcage... interesting!  Did he kill himself?  Was he murdered?  When could this have happened.  Stuff like that I find helps drive the setting and the narrative (as much as I dislike TES games, I did enjoy FO3 and FONV), and it's done in a way without needing additional writing and cinematics and so forth.


Anyways this is a wall of text now.  I'll check in for a response tomorrow.

Cheers.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[Allan Schumacher]

You've lost me.

[John Epler]

Allan, slagging on Dead Island means that we have to fight. Just letting you know.

[Allan Schumacher]

John Epler wrote...

Allan, slagging on Dead Island means that we have to fight. Just letting you know.

To be fair, I'm basing my entire premise on the opinions my friends have had of the game and the copious amounts of technical issues they had.

I haven't actually played the game lol.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[John Epler]

FaWa wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think cinematic approach is phenomenal and effective as the days of FF7 and FF8 anymore. We have recent titles heavily rely on cinematic storytelling like Jurassic Park: The Movie and Dead Island. Still, both are listed among 10 most disappointed games of the year, heavily critized for linearity.. In the end it's still FPS dominated the largest market segment. And Sykim look good to compete with them. Because Skyrim basically has the same element of FPS. Freedom and the feeling of being in the world as the character..

Dead Island is just a poor game,

And yet its still on my computer, while Dragon Age 2 is not. 
I don't think anyone involved with the creation of DA2 should be in the position to call another game bad. 

Cherry picking quotes like this and making those sorts of snide remarks afterwards goes a very, very long way to explaining why a lot of the conversation on these forums has either dried up or turned into PR speak. Just putting that out there.

[John Epler]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

John Epler wrote...

FaWa wrote...
And yet its still on my computer, while Dragon Age 2 is not. 
I don't think anyone involved with the creation of DA2 should be in the position to call another game bad. 

Cherry picking quotes like this and making those sorts of snide remarks afterwards goes a very, very long way to explaining why a lot of the conversation on these forums has either dried up or turned into PR speak. Just putting that out there.

Church. 

Are.. are we speaking in code now?

I'm confused.

[John Epler]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Cherry picking quotes like this and making those sorts of snide remarks afterwards goes a very, very long way to explaining why a lot of the conversation on these forums has either dried up or turned into PR speak. Just putting that out there.

Church. 

Are.. are we speaking in code now?

I'm confused.

Mayhaps I should have said 'Preach on, Brother Epler?

Is that what kids are doing these days? I'm not very hip and with it anymore. 

I used to be with it. Then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me.

[Allan Schumacher]

FaWa wrote...

And yet its still on my computer, while Dragon Age 2 is not. 
I don't think anyone involved with the creation of DA2 should be in the position to call another game bad. 

I'm sure the opposite is true in many cases as well.  I'm sure there are some that have both games installed too.  There's probably also some that have neither game installed (in fact "most" people are probably in this boat).

Although for all of Dragon Age 2's faults, I still can think of many games that are worse.  I can think of many that are much better.


Also, just to be clear for everyone, when I state that a game is poor it shouldn't need to be clarified that it's my opinion on the matter.  I may disagree that someone else thinks that Morrowind or Oblivion are fantastic games.  For me, they are not.  I also recognize that not all games are going to appeal to me, and that there is likely value for others in games that I don't care about.  I know for a fact that there are games that I like that aren't typically well liked.  To each his or her own.

As for your point whether or not I should be in the position to call another game poor because of my work on DA2, I'll disagree.


I try to be candid on the forums.  The forums have actually asked for more open and honest discourse.  Naturally there ARE some restrictions (that even make sense) so I can't talk about everything.  I think people would rather have a clear perspective on what types of games I do and do not like so that they can better qualify statements I make about qualities of games.  Just my perspective anyways.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2012 - 09:16 .