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[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I prefer that all loose ends be tied upo before the end of the game.

I don't think that's necessary, either.

[TonberryFeye]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
If the OGB does return, it won't be a big plot point, so the game will be playable for those who didn't do the ritual. David Gaider said as much here: http://social.biowar...20&lf=8#3195476 
and a very good explaination for why it won't happen was posted on the DA fan site here: http://greywardens.c...d-baby-dilemma/ 
If future games were focused on the OGB, then Bioware would have to make it canon, which they aren't willing to do (first link) because it would alienate players who didn't make that choice. Dragon Age 3 will be about the mage-templar war, not Morrigan's child.

And once again, DA2 is the problem.

All that Bioware needed to do was to point out, when DA2 was released (or even when it was still in production) that "we never planned for a sequel to Origins. As such, we now need to think of the wider story, and that requires certain characters to still be here; the Dark Ritual needs to have happened, for example, or the overall story just won't make sense."

For the most part, you can still work around this stuff. If your Warden sacrificed himself, then with the re-write he performed the ritual (or if female, got the other Warden to do it) and then was killed fighting the Archdemon. Someone else made the killing blow, Morrigan got the Old God's soul, and the title Hero of Ferelden was awarded posthumously in honour of the fact that, whilst you didn't actually land the killing blow, you are the reason there was anyone to land that blow in the first place.

That can still be done with DA3, it'll just feel a lot more forced since they didn't do it when they should have.

[ElitePinecone]

But why elevate the DR to such a pivotal point in the overall plot of the games? Is it a Morrigan thing?

If anything (based on pre-DA2 developer comments) the mage-templar conflict is going to be a defining event in the IP for the foreseeable future, not the *potential* birth of a reincarnated Tevinter god. There are a half-dozen other dangling plot threads (the Harvester, Corypheus, the Qunari post-DA2, Orlais-Ferelden tensions, the Architect, Warden's Keep blood experiments) that are outstanding, but for some reason the OGB gets all the attention?

Saying "Morrigan did the DR anyway and/or somehow captured the Archdemon's soul because of [reason]" is one thing - and in my view, it's incredibly contrived - but if Origins' choices were brazenly rewritten to support the outcome that a Warden *had to* do the ritual regardless of player choices, it'd be quite frustrating.

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree with others that canon should be set and import flags forgotten, and not just for the OGB. Just say everyone performed the DR, no one did the US. Say that everyone cororated Allistair. Say Bhelen will always be king. Say The Circle was saved, never annulled. Bioware needs to take a stance on its histories, if only for the fact that it blocks them off from content forever if they don't.

For instance, if DA3 is about the Mage/Templar War, I am assuming kingdoms will be involved, Ferelden included. Will who is king be totally glazed over? As is, I can't see them making any kind of impact on the story if they have to account for both Anora or Allistair being on the throne. Similarly, I'm sure when mages are discussing the roots of where their rebellion started, how could they NOT bring up the Circle Annulment in Ferelden, which wiped out hundreds of mages (if the player chose to side with the Templars in DA:O)? And you essentially cut yourself off from any visit to Orzamar or contact with non-surface dwarves without at least acknowledging who the king is on a regular basis...

So why paint yourself in a corner by not setting canon? I get that this was a very cool selling point about the DA/ME games... but honestly, it BARELY worked with ME, which was planned as a trilogy. Its going to be painfully bad with each edition for DA, which could go on for an indefinite amount of time. Its only going to diminish and limit each choice and each plot point, not enirch them by having our choices "matter." Because they can't - its totally unsustainable. There's no end to the amount of loopholes, workarounds and specialized cameos for future games.

And to try to have everything resolved in game, while sounding nice, is worse still. To resolve every choice in a game, to make it completely insular, insinuates that the choice's impact doesn't exist outside of the game you are playing.

So you would never get to pick a king again - after all, the position of king tends to be a rather long-term profession, not to be removed/replaced/negated within the time span of a game.

You would never have a choice to side against one side versus another - after all, that would imply the other side loses, which means people could be dead. And dead tends to be a rather permanent condition (although not always... <cough> Leliana <cough> <cough>).

You would never have the choice of making things better for anyone... because the people who choose NOT to do that must respect their playthroughs. So anything good done that is optional cannot be carried over in future games, so what's the point of doing good? Or bad, for that matter?

Oh, and if everything is wrapped up in game, your companions will never leave you, can never die, have at least SOME scripted love interest dialogue (because if we bring this companion NPC back in a future game, we have to have their dialogue account for some romantic events between the previous PC, otherwise that's not a choice that's resolved in game) and your companions will be all-bi, since having the option of being male or female is a choice that must be resolved in game as well, so if a character was romanceable, they need to have that resolved, regardless of your gender.

This type of scenario, where every story, quest, character, plot idea is all wrapped up in each game is a red herring, a deceptive trap to offer as a way to still have import flags, but keep things simple. In reality, it removes or undoes any choice that would have any real impact, it limits your character to doing what the character "should" be doing as dictated by the story, it makes your companions feel less like real people and more like your own personal dating sim puppets and it drains the entire spirit of the franchise out... all to hold onto one feature, import flags.

To me, its not worth it, not even a little bit. Honestly, to me, its some of the worst parts about DA2 (aside from gameplay mechanics), in that its story, its events, its choices and its dialogue options ALL took you to the same place, with the same reactions, for the same reasons. All to avoid further issues with people's choices being respected in future games... at the expense of eliminating all choice in present games.

Use the Fallout method. Give me a million choices of what I want to say and do, then while making the next game, just determine what the "canon" PC did, and craft your world, story and history accordingly.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 juin 2012 - 12:04 .

[TonberryFeye]

The only other option as I see it is to take a third road... one that may feel a little cheap to some.

Let's say you sided with Bhelen in Origins. Well done! That was the canon choice!
If you side with Harrowmont... he gets assassinated. A new king shows up who has a similarly progressive outlook to Bhelen, and thus Orzammar opens itself to surface trade and the plot can proceed. The difference is likely to be that this 'new' king may like the idea of taking surface money, but he might not want to give any rights to the surface caste. Bhelen, on the other hand, WILL give them rights if they serve in the military.

However, this should play out in true Dragon Age style; the impact of who is king should not seem to matter right up until some key point in the game. Say... say the Darkspawn start rushing a Dwarf outpost that is the only thing stopping them from attacking an important town in Orlais. If Bhelen is king there will be enough Dwarfs to hold (Casteless will be fighting). If he isn't, the outpost falls and the town is ravaged by Darkspawn.

Having your actions matter in ways you cannot forsee is always cool; it's much more realistic than "Here, have +20 to Goody-Two-Shoes".

[Fast Jimmy]

ElitePinecone wrote...

But why elevate the DR to such a pivotal point in the overall plot of the games? Is it a Morrigan thing?

While Morrigan is a fan-fave, she is irrelevant in my point of view. We have a literal god being reborn. How is that not a huge impact? What if, by some choice made at the Urn in DA:O, we had the ability to say Andraste was re-incarnated in a baby, but it was only a choice? Do you think a new Chantry Messiah walking around would be a quest footnote?

If anything (based on pre-DA2 developer comments) the mage-templar conflict is going to be a defining event in the IP for the foreseeable future, not the *potential* birth of a reincarnated Tevinter god. There are a half-dozen other dangling plot threads (the Harvester, Corypheus, the Qunari post-DA2, Orlais-Ferelden tensions, the Architect, Warden's Keep blood experiments) that are outstanding, but for some reason the OGB gets all the attention?

Agreed, there are a ton of dangling plot threads. All the ones you mentioned are very good and interesting. All could, easily, be a game in-and-of-themselves. But most of them deal with either DLC, expansions or outside-of-game content, such as novels (except the Qunari). The DR is the only one on that list that everyone who played DA:O vanilla, right out of the box, would encounter. So it is the plot line that is most prevalent and in need of attention

Saying "Morrigan did the DR anyway and/or somehow captured the Archdemon's soul because of [reason]" is one thing - and in my view, it's incredibly contrived - but if Origins' choices were brazenly rewritten to support the outcome that a Warden *had to* do the ritual regardless of player choices, it'd be quite frustrating.

I agree, it IS frustrating. If Bioware were to acknowledge your import flag and then tap dance around the issue to make things the same, that would be close to a slap in the face.

If Bioware were to completely ignore all import flags, to scrap the whole "choice carrying over" aspect, they could lay down the law of what happened and then no single person's game would be trampled on... EVERYONE'S games would be trampled on, (relatively) equally. 

Its not a perfect solution, I know. I'd love nothing more than for Bioware to custom make me a game on demand accounting for each decision I made in DA:O and DA2, and keep feeding me those awesome decisions in DA3 and on. But that's just not possible. Its not even theoretically plausible. So the only thing Bioware can do is create a cameo or codex reference for each choice, and do their best to avoid the issue completely in future games.

If they scrapped import flags, set up their own canon of what happened, ignored each person's character from previous games and just made a canon Warden and a canon Hawke, then they can offer all the choices they want without fear of reprisal. They can create games that follow up on these dangling plot lines, without fear that in some people's games, the Architect might be dead, that Sten may have never been recruited, that Lelianna may have been decapitated, that Anders may have been murder-knifed, that Howe didn't join the Wardens, that Bethany was smashed by an ogre, that Carver was smashed by an ogre, that Feynriel - the first dreamer in an age - may be dead or Tranquil, that Allistair may be a washed up drunk, that Amaranthine may be a burnt rubble, that the Werewolves may have not been cured, that the Mages tower in Ferelden might be an empty husk, that the Dwarven kingdoms might be embroiled in an Exalted March for shutting down the Orzammar Chantry, that Shale might not be a golem anymore, that Morrigan may have come out the other side of an Eluvian with a knife in her belly, that Merril might have destroyed her Eluvian... I could go on. And on, and on and on...

The Bioware team has done an amazing job of telling stories that could go in multiple directions. And the import flags made the concept of my choices really cool, something that I was excited to see followed up on in future games. But now I'm not - because they can't create two versions of Ferelden, one ruled by Allistair and one by Anora (and a third ruled by both). They can't create two versions of the world, where an Old God walks amongst us and one where it doesn't. They only have the resouces to create one world, one game. So instead of making everyone's game the same, with a smattering of import flag B.S. lip service, why don't we let them create the world THEY want to... without having to worry about hurting your feelings, because you chose different options than what makes for the best story?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

TonberryFeye wrote...

The only other option as I see it is to take a third road... one that may feel a little cheap to some.

Let's say you sided with Bhelen in Origins. Well done! That was the canon choice!
If you side with Harrowmont... he gets assassinated. A new king shows up who has a similarly progressive outlook to Bhelen, and thus Orzammar opens itself to surface trade and the plot can proceed. The difference is likely to be that this 'new' king may like the idea of taking surface money, but he might not want to give any rights to the surface caste. Bhelen, on the other hand, WILL give them rights if they serve in the military.

However, this should play out in true Dragon Age style; the impact of who is king should not seem to matter right up until some key point in the game. Say... say the Darkspawn start rushing a Dwarf outpost that is the only thing stopping them from attacking an important town in Orlais. If Bhelen is king there will be enough Dwarfs to hold (Casteless will be fighting). If he isn't, the outpost falls and the town is ravaged by Darkspawn.

Having your actions matter in ways you cannot forsee is always cool; it's much more realistic than "Here, have +20 to Goody-Two-Shoes".

Which would still require a new VA, new lines to be written, new coding to account for and new analysis of what this new king would be like. If they are going to do all of that, why not just keep Harrowmont and say he was pushed by his citizens to open up more to the surface world?

You are still left with the same reality- creating two separate experiences for one choice made in a previous game. Then, if you offer another choice in regards to the Dwarves, you know have FOUR realities to account for if you ever want to use the dwarves again. 

Its madness. Its utterly unsustainable. The only option they have is to run away from any country, people, city and choice they've made in a previous game... which, if that's the case... why have the import flags to begin with?

[Realmzmaster]

Bioware could have established canon with DA2. Just use one of the preset histories that appear in DA2 and forget about allowing an import. Bioware could have had an introductory episode or quest where the canon history is laid out.

Yes, gamers would complain, but that is being done anyway. The warden did the US and the DR never happened. No OGB exists. The dwarven king is Harrowmount. The werewolves killed the elves. The Circle was annulled. Connor was traded to the desire demon for power. Loghain is a grey warden. Alstair is a broken man. Anora rules.

Simply make a canon history and stick to it.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I prefer that all loose ends be tied upo before the end of the game.

I don't think that's necessary, either.

Some do which is why the cliffhanger ending of DA2 annoys them.

[Dakota Strider]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Bioware could have established canon with DA2. Just use one of the preset histories that appear in DA2 and forget about allowing an import. Bioware could have had an introductory episode or quest where the canon history is laid out.

Yes, gamers would complain, but that is being done anyway. The warden did the US and the DR never happened. No OGB exists. The dwarven king is Harrowmount. The werewolves killed the elves. The Circle was annulled. Connor was traded to the desire demon for power. Loghain is a grey warden. Alstair is a broken man. Anora rules.

Simply make a canon history and stick to it.

I agree that Bioware needs to choose which choices are canon for DA, and the sooner they do it, the less heartache they will create.

But your choices....ugh.  Perhaps you were just using these for an effect.  My Wardens' choices only agreed with yours' one time. I know that some people prefer to play the "dark side" in games.  But, I hope that the choices Bioware choose to canonize for DA are not near so grim.

[Fallstar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sweet Dirge wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I assume you miss this post by David Gaider.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/3171720%26lf%3D8#3195476

If the gamer did not do the DR it never happened. Therefore it cannot be considered canon unless the developers radically change their minds and come up with a lame excuse of how there is a OGB when two out of the three choices result in no OGB. So please elaborate on how it is a silly statement.

That did not say "Witch Hunt didn't mater."  If Morrigan slept with the Warden she still had a child, just a regular child.  If the Dark Ritual was not undertaken then the story is just about how the Warden is just trying to get some elf's book back.  Morrigan actually acknowlodges the Dark Ritual not being complete. 

So saying "Witch Hunt is DLC and not canon" for the sake of it being DLC is silly.

Then it is not about the OGB which is what the poster I was responding to said was important for DA3. So in that regard Witch Hunt does not matter. Also if you did not download the dlc and many gamers did not the dlc does not matter.  Just like the Ultimate Scarifice did not matter for Awakening because Bioware allowed gamers to import the US warden as if the US never occurred. 

The developers set what is canon and nothing in Witch Hunt has been made canon.

As far as I'm aware, no matter what happens in Witch Hunt, Morrigan goes through or falls through the Eluvian, with or without your Warden. In addition she completes an Eluvian no matter what. Whilst there were no plot flags for WH in DA2 (or GoA for that matter I think?) those two events did happen. Whether your Warden had anything to do with them or not is irrelevant, she completes the mirror without you and goes through it without your Warden being present, or enters it somehow if your Warden is present. And yes, the DR itself isn't canon, but a large part of the story of WH is independent of the DR, doing the DR or not just adds or removes certain options. So some events in WH occur regardless, and since WH is a direct continuation of the story rather than an alternative timeline such as Darkspawn Chronicles, I think it is reasonable that events which you have no choice about can be assumed to be canon.

Realmzmaster wrote...

Bioware could have established canon with DA2. Just use one of the preset histories that appear in DA2 and forget about allowing an import. Bioware could have had an introductory episode or quest where the canon history is laid out.

Yes, gamers would complain, but that is being done anyway. The warden did the US and the DR never happened. No OGB exists. The dwarven king is Harrowmount. The werewolves killed the elves. The Circle was annulled. Connor was traded to the desire demon for power. Loghain is a grey warden. Alstair is a broken man. Anora rules.

Simply make a canon history and stick to it.

 

One of the options for the DA2 import is already labelled as the default option. Whilst default doesn't mean canon, I'm assuming they already do have a set canon they refer to if needed when writing books, comics etc.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 12:12 .

[Realmzmaster]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Bioware could have established canon with DA2. Just use one of the preset histories that appear in DA2 and forget about allowing an import. Bioware could have had an introductory episode or quest where the canon history is laid out.

Yes, gamers would complain, but that is being done anyway. The warden did the US and the DR never happened. No OGB exists. The dwarven king is Harrowmount. The werewolves killed the elves. The Circle was annulled. Connor was traded to the desire demon for power. Loghain is a grey warden. Alstair is a broken man. Anora rules.

Simply make a canon history and stick to it.

I agree that Bioware needs to choose which choices are canon for DA, and the sooner they do it, the less heartache they will create.

But your choices....ugh.  Perhaps you were just using these for an effect.  My Wardens' choices only agreed with yours' one time. I know that some people prefer to play the "dark side" in games.  But, I hope that the choices Bioware choose to canonize for DA are not near so grim.

The choices are just for effect. I have multiple playthroughs I just picked one. 

[Realmzmaster]

DuskWarden wrote...

snip

I do not know if any of the dlc is considered canon. Bioware has not stated what is and what is not canon. Also many gamers as I stated did not buy the dlc so Witch Hunt would be irrelevant to them. The comics and other media have no bearing on the games. In fact Anders barely gets a mention in the book Asunder. Basically what he did is boiled down to about a paragraph. According to David Gaider that was intentional. 

Just like the comics for the D & D universe have no bearing on the games produced. What is canon in the books and other media may or may not be canon in the games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dakota Strider wrote...

I agree that Bioware needs to choose which choices are canon for DA, and the sooner they do it, the less heartache they will create.

I think choosing a canon hamstrings them unnecessarily.

I'd support them making a game that assumes the Warden sacrificed himself to defeat the archdemon, and then later making a game that assumes the OGB.

Canon is irrelevant.  They should assume whichever facts make each game better.

And BioWare has actually said that their goal is to make each game as good as it can be.  This, I maintain, means that they're not wedded to canon either.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[Dakota Strider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I agree that Bioware needs to choose which choices are canon for DA, and the sooner they do it, the less heartache they will create.

I think choosing a canon hamstrings them unnecessarily.

I'd support them making a game that assumes the Warden sacrificed himself to defeat the archdemon, and then later making a game that assumes the OGB.

Canon is irrelevant.  They should assume whichever facts make each game better.

And BioWare has actually said that their goal is to make each game as good as it can be.  This, I maintain, means that they're not wedded to canon either.

Now that is a thought. 

If Bioware could simultaneously create two games, during the same timeline that told a different story, based on the decision to do the Dark Ritual, or to make the Ultimate Sacrifice, and could make each game different enough to stand on their own, that may be the way for them to go.  They would get to reuse a lot of things from one game to the other, like locations, combat mechanic, and even some Voice Acting lines might apply to both games.  

I would pay full price for each game if they were done right.  Bioware would be spending less money than they normally would to create two full games, yet could sell both for full price.  Besides making more profits, it would also allow them to add more content in each game.

Not sure if anyone at Bioware/EA is that ambitious, but if done right, this is the type of innovation that could really change the cRolePlayingGame market.  Subsequent DA's could then be split based on major decisions from previous games, giving most players chances to pursue the choices they made.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I wasn't suggesting they should make overlapping games. Just that they be allowed to assume whichever history makes any given game better.

I don't oppose the overlapping games, but that wasn't strictly what I was suggesting.

For example, if some aspect of DA2 had hinged on Alistair being King of Ferelden, I would see now reason why DA3, with a largely unrelated plot, couldn't assume the opposite if that made DA3 better.

I do not care about consistency across games.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm sorry... are you all honestly suggesting that Bioware develop two totally different games based off this one choice? And that they possibly even charge double for both outcomes, in the case of Dakota's suggestion? This isn't Pokemon, where you could get away with selling a Black and White version on the day of Release.

First, you could not get away with selling two different copies of the game. If you think things like Day One DLC and Pre-Order only content gets people riled up that they would are being charged for things that should be free, wait until you see what the shirt storm of fan rage would be against the fact that you would have to shell out double the money to see outcomes of one choice from DA:O. It would be a complete and utter disaster.

And, if you think Bioware is seriously going to put in all the development time and resources into making truly separate, tailored content based on a previous game choice that extends beyond a single cameo or conversation, you are dreaming. DA2, ME2 and ME3 are chock full of examples of how against this concept the company is. With good reason! Having all the costs of two separate games, but no more selling appeal than the previous/original game's fan audience (who would be the only ones who care about such a choice impact) is wasted money.

It's a losing proposition for Bioware either way.

Now, if, on the other hand, they were to do away with the import flags, they could make one relly great game that doesn't have to worry about dealing with all the choices from before, they can tell a great story with the elements they chose. And they can offer us tons of choices in the game, since they won't have to worry about how those choices will hamper the development of a theoretical DA4.

Import flags are truly an insane business proposition. It's either going to disillusion fans as time goes on, or it's going to bankrupt the DA division. Simple as that.

[AkiKishi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm sorry... are you all honestly suggesting that Bioware develop two totally different games based off this one choice? And that they possibly even charge double for both outcomes, in the case of Dakota's suggestion? This isn't Pokemon, where you could get away with selling a Black and White version on the day of Release.

First, you could not get away with selling two different copies of the game. If you think things like Day One DLC and Pre-Order only content gets people riled up that they would are being charged for things that should be free, wait until you see what the shirt storm of fan rage would be against the fact that you would have to shell out double the money to see outcomes of one choice from DA:O. It would be a complete and utter disaster.

And, if you think Bioware is seriously going to put in all the development time and resources into making truly separate, tailored content based on a previous game choice that extends beyond a single cameo or conversation, you are dreaming. DA2, ME2 and ME3 are chock full of examples of how against this concept the company is. With good reason! Having all the costs of two separate games, but no more selling appeal than the previous/original game's fan audience (who would be the only ones who care about such a choice impact) is wasted money.

It's a losing proposition for Bioware either way.

Now, if, on the other hand, they were to do away with the import flags, they could make one relly great game that doesn't have to worry about dealing with all the choices from before, they can tell a great story with the elements they chose. And they can offer us tons of choices in the game, since they won't have to worry about how those choices will hamper the development of a theoretical DA4.

Import flags are truly an insane business proposition. It's either going to disillusion fans as time goes on, or it's going to bankrupt the DA division. Simple as that.

Dragon Age :Silver and Gold ? 

Nah only Pokemon can get away with that.

[Fredward]

Dakota Strider wrote...
Now that is a thought. 

If Bioware could simultaneously create two games, during the same timeline that told a different story, based on the decision to do the Dark Ritual, or to make the Ultimate Sacrifice, and could make each game different enough to stand on their own, that may be the way for them to go.  They would get to reuse a lot of things from one game to the other, like locations, combat mechanic, and even some Voice Acting lines might apply to both games.  

I would pay full price for each game if they were done right.  Bioware would be spending less money than they normally would to create two full games, yet could sell both for full price.  Besides making more profits, it would also allow them to add more content in each game.

Not sure if anyone at Bioware/EA is that ambitious, but if done right, this is the type of innovation that could really change the cRolePlayingGame market.  Subsequent DA's could then be split based on major decisions from previous games, giving most players chances to pursue the choices they made.

And how would that end when a major choice (which is pretty much essential for a good game) diverges the story again? Do they just keep making new games for every major choice? 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32 -> 64...

And that's just assuming the game(s) has two big decisions each time. Yah know I thought the same when I thought about the road the DA2 import system is going, if they want to keep it up they'd have to start creating entirely different games based on player decisions. But, and I dunno if it's just me, that sounds utterly ludicrous. It would take forever. Take a lot more work and I don't even wanna think about the money and marketing! Hey look this game is almost EXACTLY the same as we the one we released the other day but THIS time you get to fight a fat monster baby at the end!!!!!

Nah, I see keep the import system but only for minor stuff, love interests, quests completed etc. And then let there be some intro kinda thing IN the game where the protagonist's answers set how the world looks over all, OGB, US etc.

[Fast Jimmy]

^^^

I was with you... right up until your last sentence.

How in the world does letting the player choose these at the beginning of the next game any different than importing that same change from the previous game? It doesn't matter if I made the choice in DA:O and DA3 reads its import flag correspondingly, or if I choose that my character did the DR in an intro section of DA3... the result is the same! You still have to account for that choice with custom content. It doesn't fix the problem, it just repositions the source of it.

You have to set canon. You have to stop importing game choices from previous stories. Only then can you offer real choice in game.

The beginning is a magical time, because anything is possible. It's only later during a journey do the choices become less, the paths becomes more narrow and the obstacles too many.

Having Bioware pick a certain set of choices as canon gives us a new beginning with each game. It lets them reset the pieces on the board, and start fresh without having to worry about the clutter already present. If they have to account for every move a piece can make on this proverbial chessboard, they won't move any pieces, let alone introduce anymore.

These metaphysical chess pieces are choices. Only by resetting them do they give themselves the chance to create a compelling game again.

[Fallstar]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^^^

I was with you... right up until your last sentence.

How in the world does letting the player choose these at the beginning of the next game any different than importing that same change from the previous game? It doesn't matter if I made the choice in DA:O and DA3 reads its import flag correspondingly, or if I choose that my character did the DR in an intro section of DA3... the result is the same! You still have to account for that choice with custom content. It doesn't fix the problem, it just repositions the source of it.

You have to set canon. You have to stop importing game choices from previous stories. Only then can you offer real choice in game.

The beginning is a magical time, because anything is possible. It's only later during a journey do the choices become less, the paths becomes more narrow and the obstacles too many.

Having Bioware pick a certain set of choices as canon gives us a new beginning with each game. It lets them reset the pieces on the board, and start fresh without having to worry about the clutter already present. If they have to account for every move a piece can make on this proverbial chessboard, they won't move any pieces, let alone introduce anymore.

These metaphysical chess pieces are choices. Only by resetting them do they give themselves the chance to create a compelling game again.

Well we'll have to wait and see. Though it seems a slim possibility, they could produce a game with a true branching storyline, letting you keep whatever they decide was your most important choice from Origins or DA2, but that seems unlikely.

For now they don't need to worry too much - they can give you varying side quests based on your choices so long as those side quests are relatively minor, such as Finding Nathaniel, or the one with the last Harrowmount. The only decision from Origins that I think they need to either do a branching story with, or just set a canon choice and be done with it, is whether or not you did the DR, and if you didn't, who sacrificed themself. If that comes up - and they might just brush it aside or give it a fleeting mention - but if it does, I don't think they can do that justice with the kind of side quests DA2 gave us based on our imports.

DA2 didn't really vary that much regardless of what you did, the end state of the world is pretty much identical, so I don't think they'll have too many difficulties regarding choices there. But seeing as you've got 20 years or so until they even need to think about the OGB, we probably won't need to see anything about that choice in DA3, or perhaps ever, sadly.

[ElitePinecone]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The choices are just for effect. 

I fundamentally disagree - I think that the consistency of story choices and (the illusion of?) a persistent universe are what make Bioware's games unique. Even if they're executed with a fair degree of restriction, like in ME3, it makes for a compelling experience when events and decisions are referenced later on precisely *because* we made them. 

[Fast Jimmy]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The choices are just for effect. 

I fundamentally disagree - I think that the consistency of story choices and (the illusion of?) a persistent universe are what make Bioware's games unique. Even if they're executed with a fair degree of restriction, like in ME3, it makes for a compelling experience when events and decisions are referenced later on precisely *because* we made them. 

ME3 is the exact proof that this type of model is impossible. 

ME3 SPOULERS AHEAD!

For instance, the Rachni. A huge, widely debated choice in the first game, reduced to the near-exact outcome in a side quest. 

If they couldn't get it right in  ME3, which was a planned trilogy and had less impactful choices, what possible hope is there for the DA series, which sold less than ME, is going on for an indefinite amount of games, and which offers truly world-changing options already?

[Fredward]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^^^

I was with you... right up until your last sentence.

How in the world does letting the player choose these at the beginning of the next game any different than importing that same change from the previous game? It doesn't matter if I made the choice in DA:O and DA3 reads its import flag correspondingly, or if I choose that my character did the DR in an intro section of DA3... the result is the same! You still have to account for that choice with custom content. It doesn't fix the problem, it just repositions the source of it.

You have to set canon. You have to stop importing game choices from previous stories. Only then can you offer real choice in game.

The beginning is a magical time, because anything is possible. It's only later during a journey do the choices become less, the paths becomes more narrow and the obstacles too many.

Having Bioware pick a certain set of choices as canon gives us a new beginning with each game. It lets them reset the pieces on the board, and start fresh without having to worry about the clutter already present. If they have to account for every move a piece can make on this proverbial chessboard, they won't move any pieces, let alone introduce anymore.

These metaphysical chess pieces are choices. Only by resetting them do they give themselves the chance to create a compelling game again.

Eh. You're right. I forget that DA doesn't have a set number of games, like ME. It WOULD'VE been a good idea though!

Bioware really have painted themselves in a corner here though. They've been emphasizing the importance of player choice for a good long while now. Suddenly bringing in a canon will cause a HUGE defecationstorm.

I don't think I would really mind a canon, I've always felt that I was playing Bioware's story, not that they were giving me the tools to make my own. And as long as the story is good I don't care what they do. Although it would've been better if there had been a canon from the beginning of course... anyway I get the impression my view is a bit of a minority on the forum.

[ElitePinecone]

We've discussed this before in this thread.

Suffice it to say that although I agree that there's a fundamental tension between the demands that save-importing create and their impacts on the story's narrative branching, it's not insurmountable. Good writing and a degree of foresight can prevent the dissonance that occurs when decisions are trivialised a few games down the line (the point being that, at least for Mass Effect, there was no forward planning for the *main* plot, let alone the smaller threads).

But even if future titles need to diminish past ones' importance or limit the potential for huge branching stories with a location/protagonist switch ("we've heard rumours of a god-baby in [far off country x], but it's a long way from us!"), I don't care as long as there are enough small details to remind me that the setting really is responding to events and decisions of previous games.

Case-in-point: I was disappointed with the way the rachni plotline turned out. But it absolutely pales into comparison beside the avalanche of other fantastic ME3 references to ME/ME2, or the decisions in ME3 that have a chain of dependencies and variables stretching right back to the first game - I'm thinking of Rannoch, Tuchanka, Conrad Verner's sidequest bonanza, Balak, squadmate cameos...

Maintaining a consistent universe and creating situations, dialogue and characters that react to past player choices across games is something Bioware does almost uniquely, and they do it to a generally high standard.

To my mind the benefits of those references - however small - in engaging and immersing the player in the gameworld far outweigh the required restrictions in narrative. Where it works well, a three-game character or plot arc is immensely more powerful than a single narrative branch in a single game that is never mentioned again.

That doesn't mean some sort of 'setting reset', or disregarding player choices entirely by moving to a totally separate area, won't be required someday - and in that respect I'd support it if juggling player choices becomes impossibly difficult. But offering story variability in games with a persistent setting on the one hand, and setting 'canon' afterwards with the other, seems to me to be self-defeating.