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Is Dragon Age 3 supposed to "appeal to a wider audience" like this game was?


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#526
Fast Jimmy

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Xewaka wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I agree that the team should have every opportunity to tell the best story possible, but cannibalizing the story of an entire previous game is... a little extreme. People crave solid narrative structure. Its an innate craving our brains are wired for, sequential event data storage, things building off another in an order that can be digested. To disturb the already defined order of events to this extreme is dangerous. The primates will come out of the woodwork, throwing feces and beating their chests.

The only thing that was imported from Baldur's Gate 1 to Baldur's Gate 2 was your character. That didn't seem to harm either.


...I agree? 

I'm not sure why you quoted my comment to make that statement. If you look at any of the previous comments I've made, I have been arguing the death of the import flags for the DA series. I was only drawing the line at Sylvius suggestion that what was canon in one game be different in another. 

That line of thinking could, for instance, state that the Archdemon wasn't killed in DA:O, but simply retreated back into the Deep Roads. That's shattering lore, import flags or not.

#527
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

LOL And people wonder why they call you Sylvius the Mad.

I agree that the team should have every opportunity to tell the best story possible, but cannibalizing the story of an entire previous game is... a little extreme.

It's their standard.  I'm just applying it universally.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That line of thinking could, for instance, state that the Archdemon wasn't killed in DA:O, but simply retreated back into the Deep Roads. That's shattering lore, import flags or not.

It's establishing new lore for a game that's set in a merely similar universe, not necessarily the same universe.

This is merely as extension of my assertion that the background details for the companion characters need not be identical across multiple playthroughs even of the same game.

If each playthrough can stand alone, then obviously each game can, as well.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 26 juin 2012 - 05:24 .


#528
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's their standard.  I'm just applying it universally..


Touche.

It's establishing new lore for a game that's set in a merely similar universe, not necessarily the same universe.

This is merely as extension of my assertion that the background details for the companion characters need not be identical across multiple playthroughs even of the same game.

If each playthrough can stand alone, then obviously each game can, as well.


The difference I guess is that while you see those actions that violate the lore by the writers as evidence that the paradigm exists for lore to be changed at will without self-referencing explanations, while I just consider them mistakes or examples of too many lore balls in the air at once.

My view means that these are quality issues, that can be (theoretically) screened and accounted for in future iterations. Your view, while intriguing, is the proverbial Pandora's Box of world building.

#529
Sylvius the Mad

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Schrödinger's Lore

#530
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Schrödinger's Lore


LOL The lore can be simultaneously correct and incorrect at the same time?

I'm going to have to get out the Windex to clean the wall behind me, because my mind was just blown.

#531
batlin

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DuskWarden wrote...

I'm pretty sure they didn't sell more, but that's a very simple way of deciding whether or not it was 'worth it.' You also have to consider that DA2 had a far shorter development cycle than DAO. It also allowed Bioware to show EA that they can meet their requirements on a short development cycle. As far as I'm aware the relationship between them goes something like EA gives Bioware X money to make a game, and they have to make at least Y money from the game, in Z development time. I imagine since X and Z were relatively small for DA2 (Speculation! Speculation everywhere!)  that they were successful. So now EA hopefully is trusting Bioware to make DA3 with a higher X and Z, but with a higher Y requirement to boot.

Overall I think it was probably worth it for them. Not that I have the faintest idea really.


A big reason it didn't take as long to develop is because they used the engine they developed for DA:O, so really you must take into account the time spent developing that into the year and a half DA2 was in development.

#532
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Schrödinger's Lore


LOL The lore can be simultaneously correct and incorrect at the same time?

Until you open the box.  When you play the game, the lore resolves into a single truth.

But each new playthrough and each new game can resolve the lore differently.

I'm going to have to get out the Windex to clean the wall behind me, because my mind was just blown.

Later I can show you how I explain quantum entanglement without violating general relativity.

#533
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Schrödinger's Lore


LOL The lore can be simultaneously correct and incorrect at the same time?

Until you open the box.  When you play the game, the lore resolves into a single truth.

But each new playthrough and each new game can resolve the lore differently.

I'm going to have to get out the Windex to clean the wall behind me, because my mind was just blown.

Later I can show you how I explain quantum entanglement without violating general relativity.


As long as it doesn't involve dark matter and extra dimensions, I'd be happy to hear it! 

I personally think String Theory is the Phlogiston of our century. An explanation that only works on the most cosmetic of levels.

#534
braddao

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i hope they dont i have left the elderscrolls after skyrim and i hope they dont ruin dragon age like they did with fable tlc and elderscrolls please god please!

#535
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Later I can show you how I explain quantum entanglement without violating general relativity.

As long as it doesn't involve dark matter and extra dimensions, I'd be happy to hear it!

No dark matter, but I do need extra dimensions.  Sorry.

#536
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Later I can show you how I explain quantum entanglement without violating general relativity.

As long as it doesn't involve dark matter and extra dimensions, I'd be happy to hear it!

No dark matter, but I do need extra dimensions.  Sorry.


Ah. My theory is rooted in the theory that the phenomenon of quantum tunneling is not actually teleportation and that anti-matter is actually a false positive result that is being misinterpreted. 

#537
Fredward

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^ Since I have no idea what either of you are saying and it's leading to uncomfortable questions involving my own intelligence I am going to revert to an age old method for maintaining self esteem in situations like this; petty name calling!

NERDS!!! Neener-neener-neeeee! :P


Anywhoo, I'm with Fast Jimmy before he got all star trekky. A consistent canon makes more sense for DA anyway, if every game had it's own canon would the games even still follow each other? Or would one game explore a canon where OGB existed and another game one where he/she/it didn't?

#538
Fallstar

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Since I have no idea what either of you are saying and it's leading to uncomfortable questions involving my own intelligence I am going to revert to an age old method for maintaining self esteem in situations like this; petty name calling!

NERDS!!! Neener-neener-neeeee! :P


Anywhoo, I'm with Fast Jimmy before he got all star trekky. A consistent canon makes more sense for DA anyway, if every game had it's own canon would the games even still follow each other? Or would one game explore a canon where OGB existed and another game one where he/she/it didn't?


Ideally they wouldn't even need two separate games for that, you could just import your Warden's decision and that storyline would branch accordingly. Obviously this is far easier said than done.

There is a large volume of evidence that antimatter is not just a false positive result and an even larger volume of work that assumes it is not.

#539
Fast Jimmy

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Anywhoo, I'm with Fast Jimmy before he got all star trekky.


While this may cement my status as a nerd even further, I take this as a compliment.

DuskWarden wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

A consistent canon makes more sense for DA anyway, if every game had it's own canon would the games even still follow each other? Or would one game explore a canon where OGB existed and another game one where he/she/it didn't?


Ideally they wouldn't even need two separate games for that, you could just import your Warden's decision and that storyline would branch accordingly. Obviously this is far easier said than done.


I may have been unclear when I said they should set a canon.

I am saying there would be NO import flags, no choices brought over from previous games. The gaming experience would not differ in DA3 depending on the choices you made in DA:O or DA2. Bioware would have a set canon of things that happened (the term canon derived from its use in religion, where there are texts that form the foundation of the faith and events/tenets which are set in stone and unchangeable). Things like if you chose to do the DR or not, who you chose as the Dwarven and Human king/queen, who Hawke sided with in DA2, whether you fought the Arishok or surrendered Isabella and the Tome of Koslun, etc.

Bioware would then be able to tell any story they wanted to, and give us any many choices as possible in DA3, based on this. They would not have to worry about telling twenty five different stories based on the varying choices that could happen in prior games, they would only work on making the choices in DA3 interesting and matter. As is, DA2's choices felt limited and weak. This can be directly attributed to Bioware realizing the amount of choices given in DA:O was hard to maintain going into future games. If they didn't have to worry about who could have done what in a prior game, they can make a solid game NOW, with lots of choice, instead of worrying about choices made in a PREVIOUS game.

Then, when (if) DA4 comes out, they do the same thing - set a canon of what happened in DA3 and then create a choice-driven game from there.

DuskWarden wrote... 
 There is a large volume of evidence that antimatter is not just a false positive result and an even larger volume of work that assumes it is not.


Without a doubt. I do not doubt the work involved, but I think they are drawing the wrong conclusion. The spontaneous combustion of a particle and the energy it releases does not mean it has encountered its equal and opposite particle type. The means of generating anti-matter involve exerting force to reverse the spin of a particle, so that it begins to change its nature and reverse its polar charge (electrons becoming positive positrons, for example). 

This is a well-documented process, but I take the much-less-traveled opinion that trying to reverse the spin of a particle is the equivalent to trying to throw a car driving down the interstate at 100 MPH in reverse - its going to seize the engine and cause a destructive wreck. 

Particle destruction in unnatural environments does not proof of anti-matter make.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juin 2012 - 11:13 .


#540
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ah. My theory is rooted in the theory that the phenomenon of quantum tunneling is not actually teleportation and that anti-matter is actually a false positive result that is being misinterpreted.

The teleportation is the part that violates relativity.

I assert that quantum events that look like teleportation actually involve particles or information travelling through an unobserved dimension.  As long as none of those dimensions are time, the movement would appear to us as instantaneous.  Since Einstein's speed limit only applies to four dimensional space-time, there's no conflict.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 27 juin 2012 - 11:18 .


#541
Sylvius the Mad

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DuskWarden wrote...

There is a large volume of evidence that antimatter is not just a false positive result and an even larger volume of work that assumes it is not.

I'm not agreeing with Jimmy's antimatter theory, but the "even larger volume of work" that assumes antimatter is in no way evidence of antimatter.

#542
Fallstar

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I may have been unclear when I said they should set a canon.

I am saying there would be NO import flags, no choices brought over from previous games. The gaming experience would not differ in DA3 depending on the choices you made in DA:O or DA2. Bioware would have a set canon of things that happened (the term canon derived from its use in religion, where there are texts that form the foundation of the faith and events/tenets which are set in stone and unchangeable). Things like if you chose to do the DR or not, who you chose as the Dwarven and Human king/queen, who Hawke sided with in DA2, whether you fought the Arishok or surrendered Isabella and the Tome of Koslun, etc.

Bioware would then be able to tell any story they wanted to, and give us any many choices as possible in DA3, based on this. They would not have to worry about telling twenty five different stories based on the varying choices that could happen in prior games, they would only work on making the choices in DA3 interesting and matter. As is, DA2's choices felt limited and weak. This can be directly attributed to Bioware realizing the amount of choices given in DA:O was hard to maintain going into future games. If they didn't have to worry about who could have done what in a prior game, they can make a solid game NOW, with lots of choice, instead of worrying about choices made in a PREVIOUS game.

Then, when (if) DA4 comes out, they do the same thing - set a canon of what happened in DA3 and then create a choice-driven game from there.


Does it not take away some of the import of your choices, if you know that they won't have an effect in later games? E.G. You carefully think about who to put on the throne in Orzammar, unless your character doesn't care, but would you care if you knew that decision wouldn't have an impact in future games? Now purely in the context of the game, your character doesn't know that his decision won't matter, but it' still detract from the experience for me. It might not for others I guess. I like the idea that even if we can't import our PCs through the games, we can play in a world shaped by our previous PCs.

DuskWarden wrote... 
 There is a large volume of evidence that antimatter is not just a false positive result and an even larger volume of work that assumes it is not.


Without a doubt. I do not doubt the work involved, but I think they are drawing the wrong conclusion. The spontaneous combustion of a particle and the energy it releases does not mean it has encountered its equal and opposite particle type. The means of generating anti-matter involve exerting force to reverse the spin of a particle, so that it begins to change its nature and reverse its polar charge (electrons becoming positive positrons, for example). 

This is a well-documented process, but I take the much-less-traveled opinion that trying to reverse the spin of a particle is the equivalent to trying to throw a car driving down the interstate at 100 MPH in reverse - its going to seize the engine and cause a destructive wreck. 

Particle destruction in unnatural environments does not proof of anti-matter make.


Anti-matter is just the term we stick onto particles of idential mass but opposite charge and spin (and conservation numbers). Anti particles and particles don't annihilate one another by virtue of being called 'anti', they do so because of their properties - (charge, spin etc.) You could dispense with the name 'anti' altogether and call the positron the deltatron or whatever. It wouldn't change anything about it. classifying a certain set of particles as antimatter is just convenient because of their interactions with another set of particles; 'normal' matter. There's nothing conceptually different about anti-matter and matter, they are just two sets of particles, and you happen to be able to pair most of those particles up. So anti-matter does exist, because we defined certain particles which we are virtually certain exist, to be so.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 28 juin 2012 - 12:06 .


#543
Fast Jimmy

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DuskWarden wrote...

Does it not take away some of the import of your choices, if you know that they won't have an effect in later games? E.G. You carefully think about who to put on the throne in Orzammar, unless your character doesn't care, but would you care if you knew that decision wouldn't have an impact in future games? Now purely in the context of the game, your character doesn't know that his decision won't matter, but it' still detract from the experience for me. It might not for others I guess. I like the idea that even if we can't import our PCs through the games, we can play in a world shaped by our previous PCs.


I agree. However, the number of choices from previous games will only continue to grow. As time passes, these choices will either need an ever-increasing amount of custom content and effort for a smaller and smaller niche of players (a Bhelen supporter who had the Dalish killed by Werewolves but performed the US whilst having Allistair crowned king and choose to have Hawke side with the Chantry would have a very specific subset of decisions to account for), or these choices will ultimately result in the same net outcome (see the Rachni in ME3). 

There is no good way to do it. If there was an easy way, Bioware would have already done it. As is, the future is only cameos and codex references for monumental changes while we completely avoid certain areas, topics and characters... or hand waving to make the decisions the same (i.e., the OGB was still born even if your Warden didn't sleep with Morrigan, because Morrigan had a Plan B... also, again see the Rachni in ME3).

OR... Bioware can say that the choice outcome will be X, no import flags to account for, period. Only then will they be able to offer the same level of choice (or, even more ideally, even MORE choice) than we saw in DA:O. Otherwise, I fear that DA2's choices will only be the beginning of hedged story-telling.

This is only my opinion, but it is one based out of a realistic analysis of the ever-increasing amount of choices and consequences one would have to manage going forward with an ever-growing import flag list.

DuskWarden wrote... 

Anti-matter is just the term we stick onto particles of idential mass but opposite charge and spin (and conservation numbers). Anti particles and particles don't annihilate one another by virtue of being called 'anti', they do so because of their properties - (charge, spin etc.) You could dispense with the name 'anti' altogether and call the positron the deltatron or whatever. It wouldn't change anything about it. classifying a certain set of particles as antimatter is just convenient because of their interactions with another set of particles; 'normal' matter. There's nothing conceptually different about anti-matter and matter, they are just two sets of particles, and you happen to be able to pair most of those particles up. So anti-matter does exist, because we defined certain particles which we are virtually certain exist, to be so.


I realize this. But just because two particles of opposite spin collide, it doesn't mean they would destroy each other. 

Attributing "spin" and "charge" as magical forces that can do magical things is an oversimplification of a much more complex process, a process that we don't understand currently. What is "positive"? Why does a proton have it? Why does it repel a "negative" charged particle? These questions aren't answered by physics today, the only concern is that the math adds up. And that is a huge issue.

Back in Einstein's day, the math they had answered every question but a handful, many scientists at the end of the 19th century postulated there was little else humanity could learn about the fundamental nature of the universe. After all, we had protons, electrons and neutrons... what else did we need? The answer to that question is obvious to us now, but it belies the same logic we have today - we "know" things to be true, but when someone asks simple questions, it throws the whole idea of us "knowing" anything into jeopardy.

All that aside, the most proof-positive experiments about anti-matter involve supposed "positron emmission." Whereby, it is said, that a proton will actually emit a positron and become a neutron. This, despite the fact that a neutron has more mass than a proton, which makes the concept that emitting any particle is ludicrous, unless you believe that being an anti-matter particle will automatically mean it has anti-mass, experiences anti-gravity and can be the exact opposite of all things we know true for all other matter we have experimented with... which is assuming a lot for an unobservable particle.

I say unobservable because any anti-matter, by its very own ascribed nature, will be destroyed within fractions of moments. It is untrackable through any microscope (since, after all, the only way to see the tiniest of particles is with an electron microscope, which is, obviously, normal matter, and would destory the anti-matter in question).

Regardless, the only difference between a standard electron capture (where an electron from a higher valence enters into the realm of the nucleus and collides with a proton to form a neutron) is that an electron capture normally releases an X-ray and a supposed "positron emmission" emits an neutrino, along with a surplus of energy. If no electrons are lost out of the valence, then its IMPOSSIBLE that an electron from outside the atom could have broken through the valence fields and gotten to the nucleus in a manner that creates a different end result... right? Oh wait, that's not totally unthinkable at all. Much more likely than the fact that we have created a type of matter that looks good on a mathematician's formula, where everything can be balanced out as positive and negative, desptie the fact that these qualities are totally constructs that defy an abject look at the universe, not to mention are completely at odds with our present situation - since if anti-matter did exist, the universe would have been created with equal parts matter and anti-matter, which would have collided and reacted and resulted in no universe... yet obviously where are existing in a universe right now. So... that's strike one and two for anti-matter.


EDITED: Had my equations wrong, no alpha particle is emitted at all during either process.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 juin 2012 - 01:06 .


#544
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ah. My theory is rooted in the theory that the phenomenon of quantum tunneling is not actually teleportation and that anti-matter is actually a false positive result that is being misinterpreted.

The teleportation is the part that violates relativity.

I assert that quantum events that look like teleportation actually involve particles or information travelling through an unobserved dimension.  As long as none of those dimensions are time, the movement would appear to us as instantaneous.  Since Einstein's speed limit only applies to four dimensional space-time, there's no conflict.


Interesting. My theory also stems from a disbelief that teleportation is involved, though goes about solving it in a different way.

If, instead of traveling through another dimension or transporting instantaneously due to quantum mechanics, I believe that in-between particles exists a fluid-like substance, a primordial sea of particles that predates what we consider matter. Just like a cell is the tinest unit of life, but is consisting of mostly water and an amazing soup of much smaller chemicals, molecules and structures, I too believe that particles like protons, electrons and photons are made up of much smaller building blocks, which also exist in and all around the larger particles, like an ocean.

When we see events like quantum tunneling, found most often in electrons and photons, what I believe we are actually seeing is the particle in question encountering a dense pocket of these primordial sea particles. When this collision with the dense pocket occurs, it transfers the energy, speed, momentum and spin of the molecule and then is reformed on the other side, in a different space and even slightly different direction. Think of it like the near-instantaneous movement we'd see in a pendulum ball set.

https://encrypted-tb...lP3z59hB5bV5QR 

The transfer appears instanteous (as it would be faster than light, since light is made up of these particles, transference between them would be faster than even it travels) and would result in what appears to be teleportation.




Regardless, canon should be set for DA3 and import flags abandoned altogether. They are way too much a headache... and that's coming from a guy who made up his own solution to theoretical particle physics.

#545
Fast Jimmy

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Ironically, the discussion about attracting a wider audience has evolved into an esoteric discussion on particle physics. Isn't it ironic? Doncha think?

#546
Allan Schumacher

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The only false deduction occurring here is that when I say "the games are quite appealing" I mean for everyone.  Obviously the games are not appealing to you.  They aren't appealing to me either (last one I played was COD 4).

The mere fact that the game sells a lot is evidence enough that the game is appealing to people.  People wouldn't by the game unless it appealed to them in some capacity.  The fact that you and I may not care for the game doesn't mean that the game is not a popular game.


Actually, what I tried to suggest here, is that CoD no more achieves all its sales due to just merit, but because of buyers habits. This is true of me and everyone I know who buy CoD games, except one.


I personally feel that that is too convenient.  I used to buy NBA Live games yearly, until I realized it wasn't worth the money after all.

I think it's a bit silly to dismiss the success of games like Call of Duty as merely being habitual purchases rather than suggesting that maybe those people actually enjoy the experience.

#547
batlin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's a bit silly to dismiss the success of games like Call of Duty as merely being habitual purchases rather than suggesting that maybe those people actually enjoy the experience.


As someone who's been playing CoD since CoD 2, each subsequent game in a series isn't too much more than a really expensive map pack with a few more weapons.

#548
Allan Schumacher

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Do you enjoy playing it?

#549
batlin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do you enjoy playing it?


Yeah, but I wouldn't ever pay full price for it. Like, $20 max. Thankfully I have a stepbrother who buys them with his allowance.

#550
MarchWaltz

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All I want from DA3 is DAO with DA2 combat, dialogue wheel (I made a character in DA2 JUST for the sarcastic remarks) and probably the crafting system.