764 réponses à ce sujet

[jillabender]

FreshIstay wrote...

You guys must be on red lyrium...you guys want them to give us the 18th century version of shepard? You want linear story? Your content with our protaginist being "fixed"? A voiced protaginst does not bother me, but im not okay with Cameo's being the only difference in our playthroughs. At this point im cocerned with being promised player agency and all i'll end up with is an Antivan Milk Sandwich and a morning note saying " thanks for the good time"

I don't think you need to be that concerned – each of us is just one person on the forums, after all, and we have no direct creative control over what Bioware decides to do with the Dragon Age games.

I can appreciate that player agency is important to you, but there seem to be many people who feel that a game with a set protagonist can offer meaningful player agency if it's done well. Of course, it's your prerogative to disagree.

A set protagonist in DA3 wouldn't necessarily be my first choice either (as I've stated, the DA:O style is my first choice), but I could imagine it being done in a way that I would prefer over the style of DA2. It sounds like you prefer the style of DA2 to the style of ME, and would choose it over the ME style for DA3, and that's fine, although I feel the opposite.

Modifié par jillabender, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:46 .

[Pasquale1234]

jillabender wrote...

I think the source of most of my problems with DA2 was the fact that it limited the freedom of the player to define the character, while at the same time limiting the freedom of the writers to flesh out the character, and the result was that we ended up with a protagonist who, while fun, wasn't the most interesting character Bioware could have come up with. While having a completely set protagonist wouldn't be my very first choice, I would happily choose that over a protagonist in the style of DA2.

I'm not quite sure how a protagonist would be more pre-defined than Hawke, and still allow any choice.

I view Hawke as being the DA version of Shepard - you can choose gender and customize appearance, but are otherwise limited to paragon / renegade or diplomatic / smarty-pants / assertive types of responses.  And when you predominantly choose any of those 3 types of responses, Hawke is 'hardened' toward that personality type in later dialog.

DA2 is the first (and will likely be the only) game I've ever tried to play with a set protag, so I've minimal exposure to that style.  Shrug.

[jillabender]

Pasquale1234 wrote…

I'm not quite sure how a protagonist would be more pre-defined than Hawke, and still allow any choice.

I view Hawke as being the DA version of Shepard - you can choose gender and customize appearance, but are otherwise limited to paragon / renegade or diplomatic / smarty-pants / assertive types of responses. And when you predominantly choose any of those 3 types of responses, Hawke is 'hardened' toward that personality type in later dialog.

DA2 is the first (and will likely be the only) game I've ever tried to play with a set protag, so I've minimal exposure to that style. Shrug.

Perhaps I didn't express myself as well as I could have – personally, I find Shepard to be a more consistent and pre-defined character than Hawke (perhaps "set" and "fixed" aren't quite the right words), and I also find Shepard to be a more interesting character than Hawke. I think, although I might be off-base, that Shepard ended up being better written because the writers gave themselves a bit more freedom to define the character. And I also feel that Mass Effect gives the player a bit more freedom to imagine the main character's inner thought processes than DA2 does, because Hawke, to me, feels like too much of a caricature to have much in the way of layers of motivation (although some players might disagree).

That's why I would prefer a game with a "set" protagonist in the style of ME over a game in the style of DA2, given the choice. If you feel differently, that's completely fine, but I hope that what I've said makes a bit more sense now.

Modifié par jillabender, 02 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

This game needs to hit like 95 and 9.0 user rating on Metacritic before I even consider spending money on it.

[Cimeas]

RPGs are roleplaying games, but obviously a key distinction is whether you are creating a 'role'/character and following a preset path, or slipping into the role of a pre-created character but then developing them yourself, depends on what type of RPG it is.

What matters to me most in DA is lots of locations to explore, large variety of abilities, interesting combat (to be honest whether it's tactical or hack-and-slash doesn't really bother me- I can enjoy both) and a good story. I want to be a part of that story, and that's easier when my character speaks. Sure I can voice dialogue in my head and use my imagination, but I want Bioware to surprise me, show me that my character has personality or thoughts that I might not have expected, even though I've 'known' them for 20, 30 hours.

Bioware's most successful franchise ever has been Mass Effect, because people are attached to *their* Shepard and the relationships he/she builds. Many of the great scenes in ME would be less emotional or not work entirely if Shepard was not voiced. So people like voiced protagonist better (in general, DA2 did *not* fail because of this, let's be honest) and it (seems to) sell more. All other recent successes in the cinematic RPG genre (The Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR) have them too.

You rarely see people on gaming forums talk about how attached they are to 'their' Warden. (nor 'their' Hawke, but once again that's for other reasons). It's all because of a key distinction:

(Key Point:)

A voiced protagonist (like Shepard) is a character in the world. You play as them, influence them, and build relationships with the people around them, but they have their own personality, which you can generally create.

A silent protagonist is a window into the world from the perspective of the computer. For everyone that does not roleplay every decision from the perspective of a meticulously crafted ingame persona, you are basically playing as yourself. Therefore, ingame, you develop very little of your personality, since that key aspect of human relationships, the voice itself, is non-existent. You are a hero in the game world, but is your character really 'there' in the first place?

Modifié par Cimeas, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:07 .

[wsandista]

Cimeas wrote...

Bioware's most successful franchise ever has been Mass Effect, because people are attached to *their* Shepard and the relationships he/she builds. Many of the great scenes in ME would be less emotional or not work entirely if Shepard was not voiced. So people like voiced protagonist better (in general, DA2 did *not* fail because of this, let's be honest) and it (seems to) sell more. All other recent successes in the cinematic RPG genre (The Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR) have them too.

Were you around after ME2 and ME3 were released? I'm asking because there was quite a bit of backlash from people complaining that "their" Shepard would never do/say x. And some people like voiced PC better, not everyone. Some people even only prefer Voiced PC for different styles if games, like cinematic heavy.

You rarely see people on gaming forums talk about how attached they are to 'their' Warden. (nor 'their' Hawke, but once again that's for other reasons).

Are you here on the DA forums much? Quite a few people talk about how much they like their Wardens.

It's all because of a key distinction:

(Key Point:)

A voiced protagonist (like Shepard) is a character in the world. You play as them, influence them, and build relationships with the people around them, but they have their own personality, which you can generally create.

No you choose their personality from a limited list. I can't play a socially awkward Hawke who is kind to the down-trodden but cold to those of higher stations. I can play a spineless ninny, a joker who cracks one-liners, or a douchebag, no other choices exist.

A silent protagonist is a window into the world from the perspective of the computer. For everyone that does not roleplay every decision from the perspective of a meticulously crafted ingame persona, you are basically playing as yourself. Therefore, ingame, you develop very little of your personality, since that key aspect of human relationships, the voice itself, is non-existent. You are a hero in the game world, but is your character really 'there' in the first place?

This has to be one of the biggest over-generalizations I have seen in a long time. Quite a bit of people just start up the game and create a character which they know nothing about. They make decisions based upon not what they think works the best, but what the PC would do in that situation. Also the player can imagine whatever voice they would like to, just because it isn't played doesn't mean it isn't there, unless you want to argue that all silent PC's are telepathic.

Modifié par wsandista, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[Josielyn]

I would suggest REALLY targeting working mothers in the wider audience of Dragon Age 3, and then the $$$$ will be in the billions and then some. It will be worth it, believe me! Getting a working mother to play an RPG in the first place is difficult, but once that part is done, they make very devoted fans! Target Audience Analysis folks!

[jillabender]

Wsandista wrote…

Cimeas wrote…

You rarely see people on gaming forums talk about how attached they are to 'their' Warden.

Are you here on the DA forums much? Quite a few people talk about how much they like their Wardens.

Personally, I feel a strong emotional connection to my Wardens, and I've encountered many people on the forums here who feel the same way. Although, admittedly, the Dragon Age forums are bound to attract a larger-than-average concentration of such people, they do indeed exist.

Cimeas wrote…

A silent protagonist is a window into the world from the perspective of the computer. For everyone that does not roleplay every decision from the perspective of a meticulously crafted ingame persona, you are basically playing as yourself. Therefore, ingame, you develop very little of your personality, since that key aspect of human relationships, the voice itself, is non-existent. You are a hero in the game world, but is your character really 'there' in the first place?

It sounds as though, for you, hearing the protagonist speak does more to make you feel personally connected to the character than being free to imagine your character's tone and intent does, because hearing the protagonist speak makes the character feel more a part of the game world to you. That's fair enough, although I feel the opposite.

Cimeas wrote…

Bioware's most successful franchise ever has been Mass Effect, because people are attached to *their* Shepard and the relationships he/she builds. Many of the great scenes in ME would be less emotional or not work entirely if Shepard was not voiced. So people like voiced protagonist better (in general, DA2 did *not* fail because of this, let's be honest) and it (seems to) sell more. All other recent successes in the cinematic RPG genre (The Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR) have them too.

So far, I'm enjoying Mass Effect very much, but for different reasons than I enjoy DA:O. Personally, while I consider Shepard a well-written and interesting character, I feel more of a personal connection with my Wardens, because the fact that they're not voiced leaves more to my imagination, and makes defining them as characters feel like a collaborative effort between me and the writers. I'm not even sure I'd say that I consider my Shepard to be "my" character, although that may just be an issue of semantics.

Cimeas wrote…

I want to be a part of that story, and that's easier when my character speaks. Sure I can voice dialogue in my head and use my imagination, but I want Bioware to surprise me, show me that my character has personality or thoughts that I might not have expected, even though I've 'known' them for 20, 30 hours.

It sounds like you enjoy being "part of the story" in a different way than I do. Personally, I prefer to feel as though I'm an actor playing a character that I've created to fit into the story, which isn't consistent with being surprised by my character's thoughts or personality in the way that you seem to want to be surprised.

My feeling of not having the same kind of freedom to define the personality of a voiced protagonist that I would with a silent protagonist comes down to more than just the character's lines being voiced – it's the fact that voiced and silent protagonists are written very differently. The silent protagonist of DA:O was written in a way that allowed me to use my imagination to flesh out and build on the specific lines of text provided for my character, in order to mold, as you put it, a "meticulously crafted ingame persona" distinct from myself.

Again, I'm not in any way trying to challenge the way you approach RPGs; I just thought I'd share my different experience.

Modifié par jillabender, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[Pasquale1234]

^^ What she said.

x 1000

ETA:

BTW - It is my understanding that DAO is BioWare's best-selling title to date.  Critically acclaimed, award-winning, regarded as an instant classic by many.

DA2 completely changed the formula for reasons I can't fathom, but whatever...

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:03 .

[wsandista]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

BTW - It is my understanding that DAO is BioWare's best-selling title to date.  Critically acclaimed, award-winning, regarded as an instant classic by many.

DA2 completely changed the formula for reasons I can't fathom, but whatever...

Actaully, it's ME3 now. Of course DAO didn't have the same backlash or have it's sales plumment after the first week of release. Maybe because DAO was an amazing game on it's own merit that didn't have to cash in on it's predecessors?

[wsandista]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Mouth to mouth advertisement even? Got me to buy the game .

Me too. Word of mouth wasn't that positive concerning DA2 or ME3 though......

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If I don't care about the characters then I don't empathize with them and I consider that a huge failing of the game.

There's our agreement.

I also need to care about the characters.  If I don't care about the characters, then I don't care about their welfare, and I'm not interested in watching a story about them.

But in general, I don't know enough about computer game characters to care about them unless I designed at least some aspect of those characters myself.

For instance, I didn't care about Fenris at all.  But I did care about Leliana.  I cared about Hawke (though the game didn't let me play him).

[Fast Jimmy]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@wsandista

Mouth to mouth advertisement even? Got me to buy the game .

Mouth to mouth advertisement... now that's likely to sell games!

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@wsandista

Mouth to mouth advertisement even? Got me to buy the game .

Mouth to mouth advertisement... now that's likely to sell games!

Would "mouth to mouth advertisement" involve making out with hot salespeople? Because that would indeed sell games!

Modifié par jillabender, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[jillabender]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote…

Erm .

Sorry for my BAD english here..................Learned that it is supposed to be somewhat else..........
(lol?)

No worries, you gave us all some amusement!

[GodWood]

Cimeas wrote...
Bioware's most successful franchise ever has been Mass Effect, because people are attached to *their* Shepard and the relationships he/she builds. Many of the great scenes in ME would be less emotional or not work entirely if Shepard was not voiced. So people like voiced protagonist better

ME is indeed Bioware's most successful franchise however DA:O is Bioware's most successful game, which (according to your logic) means silent protaganists are what is preferred.

Of course this is false because a games sales are not a good representation of whether players prefer one game mechanic over another.

(in general, DA2 did *not* fail because of this, let's be honest) and it (seems to) sell more. All other recent successes in the cinematic RPG genre (The Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR) have them too.

One word: Skyrim.

Modifié par GodWood, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:52 .

[Fredward]

Josielyn wrote...

I would suggest REALLY targeting working mothers in the wider audience of Dragon Age 3, and then the $$$$ will be in the billions and then some. It will be worth it, believe me! Getting a working mother to play an RPG in the first place is difficult, but once that part is done, they make very devoted fans! Target Audience Analysis folks!

The thought of my 55 year old mother bemoaning the fact that she cannot choose between Anders and Fenris disturbs and confuses me.

[AkiKishi]

GodWood wrote...
ME is indeed Bioware's most successful franchise however DA:O is Bioware's most successful game, which (according to your logic) means silent protaganists are what is preferred.

Of course this is false because a games sales are not a good representation of whether players prefer one game mechanic over another.

(in general, DA2 did *not* fail because of this, let's be honest) and it (seems to) sell more. All other recent successes in the cinematic RPG genre (The Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR) have them too.

One word: Skyrim.

The point is not really that DA:O sold or was liked. It's whether that would be the case if it was "remade" and sold in todays market.

Skyrim is not cinematic. It draws very little attention to the protagonist from what I have seen.

[AkiKishi]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

If we were still talking about DA:O I would agree with you. But DA2 is fixed in all but name. Not only that,but it still fails to offer the variability that you got in the Witcher2 with regards to actions and consequences.This is in part to Bioware not being brave enough to take that final step and fix the character competely.

Or they could just go back to supporting player-created characters...

Already said that they will not be dropping VA or the wheel.

[AkiKishi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@wsandista

Mouth to mouth advertisement even? Got me to buy the game .

Mouth to mouth advertisement... now that's likely to sell games!

Really enjoyed the odd looks l got bursting out laughing.

[coldsteelblue]

Ok, so first of all I will admit that I've not really read much in this thread so if what I say has been mentioned, sorry.
I have been doing some thinking about DA3 for a while now & I think that in all honesty we'll possibly be a little dissapointed, here is a link to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dragon_Age_3

The main problem that bioware are facing for the DA series is that they've written out possibly the most popular protagonist (The Warden) & replacing them with a single character, this is another thing that bugs, well, me at least because, a fully voiced protagonist will be Human & I simply do not like playing as Humans too much, not only that by using just one character, you lose the multiple directions that you can play.
The fact that bioware are putting multiplayer into the game says to me that once again they are going for commercialism, something EA have been doing more & more just lately, remember DA2 had a very liniar story & Hawke solved most problems with a sword - if DA2 had the bodycount screen that DA:O did, the numbers would be in the high thousands.
Going back to the narrative, bioware could have easily carried on the story from DA:O by having the Warden (or Orlisian, depending on the dark ritual) going further into the deep roads to discover 'the truth', This would keep the core fanbase for the game, anyway, that's a narrtaive I'm not going to go into now.
Another thing that is grating on me is something that happened in ME3 - scripted relationships for previous LI's, the last thing I want to see is one of the previous lovers shaking up with someone else, yes you can argue 'hey it's been years' but I don't know, I personally just don't want to see that.
Ok, i'm going to stop ranting now & close by saying, I thnk DA3 will not be as amazing as DA:O, but possibly better than DA2 & it will be commercialized

[bEVEsthda]

cimeas wrote...
but I want Bioware to surprise me, show me that my character has personality or thoughts that I might not have expected, even though I've 'known' them for 20, 30 hours.

While that is a deal breaker for me. If Bioware are going to continue to do that, I suspect they're gonna be dead to me.
cimeas, what you describe is what you have npcs for.