764 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Tesclo wrote...

These statements are not based in reality. The % of people that replay games is directly associated with how good the actual game is. As an example, I played Origins with over 20 characters and actually purchased it twice including all the dlc. Dragon Age 2? I played it once and never bought a single dlc. Mass Effect? God knows how many times. Mass Effect 3? Once (and will never touch it again).

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This is only true in the narrowest sense.  The vast majority of the player base only plays the game once whether its awesomesauce or not.

Bioware's data mining showed that some insanely high percentage of the players only played the human male origin in DAO.  The majority of the people who played NWN *never* downloaded any player content.

I don't recall a quote from anyone at Bioware on the subject, but I know that Turbine and several other companies have made statements to the effect that less than 5% of the player base ever visits the forums, much less hangs out here.

The "play a lot and talk about the games" crowd we are immersed in here is extremely atypical.

So, sure, if a game is bad that small portion that plays repetitively will probably be even smaller.   But all your anecdote indicates is that you didn't like the games. 

[jbrand2002uk]

No its not Alan lol its the new Sim City game think of all the possibilities mmm

[Allan Schumacher]

Dakota Strider wrote...

A better question would be:  What constitutes a typical Dragon Age gamer?

Because I think a majority of them have played other Bioware fantasy rpg's, and prefer that type of genre over games that are more like action games or shooters.  There are of course many people that like other styles that play Dragon Age, but I am talking percentages of players.

I do feel that BioWare has a strong core, but my own personal experiences with people that have played BioWare games is probably still different than yours.  I'm hesitant to make any assumptions and am more inclined to state "I don't know" which is boring but prevents me from making incorrect conclusions.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 05 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[batlin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do feel that BioWare has a strong core, but my own personal experiences with people that have played BioWare games is probably still different than yours.  I'm hesitant to make any assumptions and am more inclined to state "I don't know" which is boring but prevents me from making incorrect conclusions.

I would hope that Bioware is at least a little bit aware of who their target audience is...

[Dakota Strider]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

A better question would be:  What constitutes a typical Dragon Age gamer?

Because I think a majority of them have played other Bioware fantasy rpg's, and prefer that type of genre over games that are more like action games or shooters.  There are of course many people that like other styles that play Dragon Age, but I am talking percentages of players.

I do feel that BioWare has a strong core, but my own personal experiences with people that have played BioWare games is probably still different than yours.  I'm hesitant to make any assumptions and am more inclined to state "I don't know" which is boring but prevents me from making incorrect conclusions.

I am sure that someone like yourself that works at Bioware, probably has access to some market research that is done much more scientifically than my little poll.  And I am making no claim of this being 100% accurate, only that it shows the trend of people that noticed the poll on these forums, and chose to participate.




I preferred Dragon Age 2 over Dragon Age Origins, and DA2 was my first Bioware RPG experience.
1%(1 votes)


I preferred Dragon Age 2 over Dragon Age Origins, but DAO was my first Bioware RPG experience.
4%(8 votes)


I preferred Dragon Age 2 over Dragon Age origins, and my first Bioware RPG experience was an older game (examples Baldur's Gate (series) Neverwinter Nights (series)
17%(32 votes)


I preferred Dragon Age Origins over Dragon Age 2, but DA2 was my first Bioware RPG experience
2%(3 votes)


I preferred Dragon Age Origins over Dragon Age 2, and DAO was my first Bioware RPG experience.
26%(48 votes)


I preferred Dragon Age Origins over Dragon Age 2, and my first Bioware RPG experience was an older game than either of them (example Baldur's Gate (series) or Neverwinter Nights (series) )
50%(92 votes)
http://social.biowar...90/polls/32329/

Being a stat guy, I would be real interested in seeing Bioware's/EA's numbers they have surely gathered.  But I know that type of thing is worth a lot of money, and they usually like to keep it top secret, so competitors cannot use it.

[Vormaerin]

batlin wrote...

I would hope that Bioware is at least a little bit aware of who their target audience is...

Sure, but a QA guy doesn't necessarily have the demographics data at his fingertips.   You can be sure that data exists, if only because we've been shown some of it over the years.

[FieryDove]

Vormaerin wrote...

This is only true in the narrowest sense.  The vast majority of the player base only plays the game once whether its awesomesauce or not.

Bioware's data mining showed that some insanely high percentage of the players only played the human male origin in DAO.  The majority of the people who played NWN *never* downloaded any player content.

I don't recall a quote from anyone at Bioware on the subject, but I know that Turbine and several other companies have made statements to the effect that less than 5% of the player base ever visits the forums, much less hangs out here.

Data mining can also be very wrong. Look at EA's statement from years ago only 1% of pop ever install on more than one PC or upgrade the PC ever...then huge backlash on spore. Ubisoft is going through the same thing now, saying the same thing and losing customers.

There was someone on the forum who claims to have 250 playthroughs on DAO. I wonder if they let the stats be collected? In hindsight I wish I did now...although I never made it to 250. That must be the winner of most DAO runs. Small note most of my runs were Dalish and Dwarf noble...not human. sigh

[barbara2012]

Hi donw know if someone post this here, twitter news....

Chris Priestly‏ @BioEvilChris

@DragonAgePoland @JessicaMerizan @dragonage @Mike_Laidlaw There are no plans for any talk about Dragon Age at E3. Sorry.

(( this 2012 its not a good year to my favorites games...anyway... ME3 (( DA3 nothing.....

[Wulfram]

[totally useless comment]The best way to expand the audience is to make a really good game[/totally useless comment]

[Zanallen]

batlin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do feel that BioWare has a strong core, but my own personal experiences with people that have played BioWare games is probably still different than yours.  I'm hesitant to make any assumptions and am more inclined to state "I don't know" which is boring but prevents me from making incorrect conclusions.

I would hope that Bioware is at least a little bit aware of who their target audience is...

I figure that target audience is people who enjoy games with strong stories and a large emphasis on companions. Everything else is pretty much up for grabs when it comes to Bioware's ever evolving cache of games.

[batlin]

Wulfram wrote...

[totally useless comment]The best way to expand the audience is to make a really good game[/totally useless comment]

Such a concept is entirely alien to EA, it seems.

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

 And I am making no claim of this being 100% accurate, only that it shows the trend of people that noticed the poll on these forums, and chose to participate.

As you are doubtless aware, forum users are a very small minority (typically around 5% of the game owners or less) to start with.  The poll might give some idea of what the superhardcore fandom is like,  even with self selection bias built in, but its of little value in discussing who actually buys the games.

If bioware only sold games to use, they'd go out of business pretty quick.  The problem for game designers trying new things is that if you annoy enough of the super fanatics with changes, they go berserk all over the internet, which can discourage the casual part of the audience from buying the game at all.  Yet, if they cater to them, the games risk becoming increasingly niche and failing that way.

[batlin]

Vormaerin wrote...

As you are doubtless aware, forum users are a very small minority (typically around 5% of the game owners or less) to start with.  The poll might give some idea of what the superhardcore fandom is like,  even with self selection bias built in, but its of little value in discussing who actually buys the games.

You know that when news programs take opinion polls, they don't actually survey 100% of the population? Or even half? Or even 10%? This is because a diverse group of 1,000 or so polled people actually will give you an accurate estimation of the entire population's general concensus.

[Vormaerin]

FieryDove wrote...

Data mining can also be very wrong. Look at EA's statement from years ago only 1% of pop ever install on more than one PC or upgrade the PC ever...then huge backlash on spore.

Don't know the story on spore, but a "huge backlash" usually means raging by 1-2% of the player base (or less).

The data mining is not generally wrong.   Decisions based on it might be wrong, though.    The NWN2 team considered not releasing a DM client, because their research showed that the overwhelming majority never used it.  Luckily, they changed their mind on that decision.   But it remains true that most players never used that part of the game in either NWN1 or NWN2.

[Wulfram]

batlin wrote...

You know that when news programs take opinion polls, they don't actually survey 100% of the population? Or even half? Or even 10%? This is because a diverse group of 1,000 or so polled people actually will give you an accurate estimation of the entire population's general concensus.

A representative sample, yes.  But the forum isn't at all representative.  It's a self selecting segment of the population.  Even if we were a large segment, we'd still not be a good guide to the opinions of the population as a whole

If Bioware really wanted to get a representative opinion, they should probably try emailing surveys to randomly selected people who'd registered the game.  Though that would still have issues about who chose to reply.

[Vormaerin]

batlin wrote...

You know that when news programs take opinion polls, they don't actually survey 100% of the population? Or even half? Or even 10%? This is because a diverse group of 1,000 or so polled people actually will give you an accurate estimation of the entire population's general concensus.

Yes, I am aware.  But to be valid, such polls need to be representative.  The BSN forums are NOT representative of the actual player base.   If your news agency conducted its poll by asking folks attending the Republican National Convention, it wouldn't be accurate even about Republicans in general, much less the entire country.

[FieryDove]

Vormaerin wrote...

Don't know the story on spore, but a "huge backlash" usually means raging by 1-2% of the player base (or less).

Possibly but according to Ubisoft themselves they have lost 90%+ of the pc market when they ushered in the always online DRM even for SP games, now changed to three installs securerom. That's...more than just raging fans on the forums I would think.

As to the topic at hand there isn't anything wrong with wanting more people to like and buy a game. If more people like it more will talk about it and maybe get others to try the game. The sticky part is how to do that. It's a never ending, ever-changing world.

I think we can all agree if they came in and announced DA the next thing, or anything more DA has been canned would sadden us greatly. I think all (most) want to see the DA franchise thrive. Not to mention the DA developers who are the best in the field. (yes that part is imho)

(They need to steal Georg back for combat tho!)

[Vormaerin]

FieryDove wrote...

Possibly but according to Ubisoft themselves they have lost 90%+ of the pc market when they ushered in the always online DRM even for SP games, now changed to three installs securerom. That's...more than just raging fans on the forums I would think.

But that has nothing to do with data mining.  That has to do with Ubisoft talking out of their rear to try to justify somethng they wanted to do anyway.   Diablo 3 has the same problem, though Blizzard is a bit better than Ubisoft at handling PR.

Always online DRM is a terrible idea for a lot of reasons, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with how many PCs you have or whether you upgrade them.  So the rage wasn't really a result of data mining.

[batlin]

Wulfram wrote...

A representative sample, yes.  But the forum isn't at all representative.  It's a self selecting segment of the population.  Even if we were a large segment, we'd still not be a good guide to the opinions of the population as a whole

If Bioware really wanted to get a representative opinion, they should probably try emailing surveys to randomly selected people who'd registered the game. Though that would still have issues about who chose to reply.

Vormaerin wrote...

Yes, I am aware.  But to be valid, such polls need to be representative.  The BSN forums are NOT representative of the actual player base.   If your news agency conducted its poll by asking folks attending the Republican National Convention, it wouldn't be accurate even about Republicans in general, much less the entire country.

Why are the BSN forums considered to be not an accurate representation of the whole? Because the users generally dislike DA2? That's not a sign of bias, that's a sign of the group expressing their opinion.

Modifié par batlin, 05 juin 2012 - 09:43 .

[jbrand2002uk]

its nothing to do with like or dislike its pure numbers the number of registered DA owners on the BSN possibly isn't even 1000th of the total number of DA game owners because of this massive margin it can never be representative.I know a few hardcore RPG players who don't care for the forums and have no desire to partake in them

[Sabriana]

You can't straddle the fence in games. You either go after one market, or you abandon another. Pleasing RPG gamers while trying to after the FPS fandom is futile. It can't work. As a developer, you have to pick a side. The FPS market is saturated, but apparently it is valuable for now.

However, happily, the RPG, especially the PC RPG seems to be alive and kicking. CDPC, Beth, and InXile are proving it. Yay for them.

The gaming publishers are in for a crash because of the publishing companies. They deserve it. That, of course is my personal opinion. No matter what, in time even the most casual of gamer is going to realize that they are being taken advantage of, and that they are nothing more than milk cows. It's only a matter of time.

Personally, I've not purchased an Ubisoft/Capcom/whatever game for years because of their DRM and DLC. My money went elsewhere. I'm so glad that gog.com now offers Assassins Creed. I finallhy get to play it. Without the idiotic DRM.

[Dakota Strider]

Vormaerin wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

 And I am making no claim of this being 100% accurate, only that it shows the trend of people that noticed the poll on these forums, and chose to participate.

As you are doubtless aware, forum users are a very small minority (typically around 5% of the game owners or less) to start with.  The poll might give some idea of what the superhardcore fandom is like,  even with self selection bias built in, but its of little value in discussing who actually buys the games.

If bioware only sold games to use, they'd go out of business pretty quick.  The problem for game designers trying new things is that if you annoy enough of the super fanatics with changes, they go berserk all over the internet, which can discourage the casual part of the audience from buying the game at all.  Yet, if they cater to them, the games risk becoming increasingly niche and failing that way.

As batlin mentioned, polls generally are just a representative sample, and I never claimed that the people that took this poll are a true representation of all players that played Dragon Age.  HOWEVER, it is a large enough sample to show a trend.  With only 22% in this poll, stating they prefered DA2 style of play, it would be safe to say that they are in the minority.  Doubling that number, and it would still be a minority, by 10%.   While I do not have a phd in statistics, I have actually worked on polls for a nationally recognized polling company, as well as study the results of many other polls.  The methodology is very important for the accuracy, and this poll was handicapped by the only means available to collect the data.  But, even with that limitations, I doubt there was a greater than 20% margin of error.  The questions were written in as unbiased manner as possible, which is the most one can do in these user polls.  So, with a 56% margin between the two sides on this poll, it is a very safe assumption to say that more players prefer DAO over DA2.  And with only 3% of players saying that DA2 was their first Bioware fantasy game, it is a very safe assumption to say that a large majority of DA2 players, had owned older Bioware games.  It is not a claim that only 3% of all DA2 players were first time Bioware rpg players.  But it would make it a safe assumption that such players are probably much less than 25% of the DA2 game player population.

[FieryDove]

Vormaerin wrote...


But that has nothing to do with data mining.  That has to do with Ubisoft talking out of their rear to try to justify somethng they wanted to do anyway.   Diablo 3 has the same problem, though Blizzard is a bit better than Ubisoft at handling PR.

Always online DRM is a terrible idea for a lot of reasons, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with how many PCs you have or whether you upgrade them.  So the rage wasn't really a result of data mining.

Oh I agree, Blizz lost three sales for D3 just here. If I want to play SP I will play offline and no social added-value options needed. EA's speech on future games isn't reassuring either. Buy the game and you are not done, neither are we. DLC/Micro-tranactions out the wazzoo so don't sell your games. You will want to buy it all, plus value added social features that make you connect to "that thing" even if playing SP games. In fact from hearing all the talk there will be no more SP games, all will be pseudo SP games or MP/co-op.

The entire world needs better net access before all this online stuff can really take off. Or more forgiving online play ie: any MMO vs Tor which is not forgiving of errors or lost connections.

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

As batlin mentioned, polls generally are just a representative sample, and I never claimed that the people that took this poll are a true representation of all players that played Dragon Age.  HOWEVER, it is a large enough sample to show a trend. 

No, its not.  Not if you are trying to say anything about the player base as a whole.   The methodology limits are crippling.

You polled on the Bioware forums.   That right there is a massive predisposition towards having played multiple bioware titles.   Your poll might have enough of  a sample size to mitigate against the self selection bias in drawing conclusions about the BSN forumites.  

But not the player base as a whole.  Not even close.   As I said, its like polling from Republican National Convention attendees.   They aren't even representative of the Republican party membership, much less the country.  

Bioware has enough successful titles and a long enough history that most people likely to buy a game such as DA2 probably have some prior experience with Bioware unless they are new to gaming.   But your poll doesn't say anything about that because forumites are not remotely in the mainstream of game players.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 05 juin 2012 - 10:18 .