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Is Dragon Age 3 supposed to "appeal to a wider audience" like this game was?


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#76
Fast Jimmy

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Incompletely disagree with the premise that pleasing your most 'hardcore' fans is a bad idea.

There is nothing mentally deficient or wrong with a fan. They are normal people (well, in the case of us at the BSN, I'll just say we aren't complete freaks of nature) :). Gamers who aren't fans are not inherently totally dissimilar to fans. More than likely, gamers who haven't played your game are actually a lot like your fans, as I'd say the average CoD fan has more in common with a DA fan than they do, say, a fan of stamp collecting.

I consider myself a hardcore fan. I've been gaming most of my life. My first and truest love is RPGs, but I enjoy many different genres. I have played the majority of Bioware games released to date. I have also played Call of Duty as well as many other shooters.

I used to get other people excited about Bioware games when I talked about them. Other gamers I just met who had also played, gamers who had never played the game, even non-gamers were impressed with some of the things I talked about. The things that hooked people in? Choices that carry over different games, multiple ways to playthroughs and lots of different endings.

What have we seen in the past two games from Bioware? Poor choice import impact, streamlined gameplay and carbon-copy endings.

Do you know what I never said anything about? And do you know what no one I talked to in Real Life mentioned? Cinematics. Or action sequences. Or marketing campaigns. No one gives a rip about these things. You can't get excited about it. This isn't 2006, where a quick-time mini-game of button mashing in God of War was cutting edge. Or 2001, where a make out scene in a pool in FFX was unheard of. And it's not 2008, where seeing a commercial for a video game was uncommon.

Instead, Bioware introduced games that blew people away in their reach and ambition. A game like DA:O, which offered tons of replay with its various epilogue endings, it's promise of huge choices that could shape the world come future games, the idea that these great companions and characters would be living on in the future... that was all not lived up to.

I've been playing Bioware games a long time, but it wasn't until DA:O that I joined the forums and got involved with conversations about game lore or mechanics, about choice impact and franchise continuity.

In short, DA:O turned me from a gamer into a hardcore fan. If Bioware were to keep making ambitious and ground-breaking titles like that, not copy-and-paste attempts from other games and genres to duplicate their success, then I'm convinced they'd find more and more gamers would be converted like I was.

Don't plan a game with limitations or profits in mind. Build a game that is the most ambitious and amazing you can dream up... trust me, the reality will show up with budgets and technical constraints soon enough. But the vision is what carries a great game through, and allows you to say 'this it it!' when you are ready to release it. Making compromises before even dreaming up the game is the road to disillusionment, both on the sides of the developers AND the gamers.

#77
jbrand2002uk

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DAO was many things ambitious wasnt really one of them most of it is minor tweeks of existing mechanics and ideas fresher yes.......but not mindblowing or revolutionary much in the same way the bible is a copy paste job of the epics of the gilgamesh

#78
Vormaerin

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Incompletely disagree with the premise that pleasing your most 'hardcore' fans is a bad idea.


Don't know where you got the idea anyone was suggesting that.   The comment was that relying on your hardcore fans' feedback alone can easily lead you into a smaller niche market than you start out in.

The idea of making a game for some imaginary "average gamer" is just as ludicrous, because that person doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone can accuse the Bioware team of lack of ambition or vision in their games. I don't think you can honestly say they've even made any objectively bad games.   DA2 showed signs of being rushed and didn't achieve everything it set out to do, but it was still a pretty good game.

#79
Dakota Strider

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to echo Fast Jimmy: It is better to make a game that appeals to your hardcore fans. You will get 100% of them to buy, and they will enthusiastically promote through forums, social media, and just plain word of mouth. You will be more likely to get high reviewer scores, if you are making a game that is trying to be just one thing, rather than a game that tries to be a little bit of something for everyone. The positive feedback your base creates will give the game a long life, as other players wish to learn why so many players are passionate about it.

Or you can make a game that your base of hardcore gamers are indifferent about, and the negative backlash will keep new players from trying your product. Only so many are going to buy the game because of some fabulous TV commercial. There have been so many games that do not deliver on the promise of what they advertise, that gamers have learned to educate themselves better, before making a purchase. If they learn that a game series hardcore fans, believe that a sequel does not live up to expectations, they will look elsewhere to experiment with a new game.

#80
jbrand2002uk

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Considering the raft of alterations made they did pretty good considering the time frame they had

#81
Sylvius the Mad

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

DAO was many things ambitious wasnt really one of them most of it is minor tweeks of existing mechanics and ideas fresher yes.......but not mindblowing or revolutionary much in the same way the bible is a copy paste job of the epics of the gilgamesh

It was ambitious in that it was a really big, well-executed game of a sort no one else was still making.

DAO revived a nearly dead genre.  That's ambitious.

#82
jbrand2002uk

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compared to what was on offer or under development at the time yes it was ambitious yes however the themes,mechanics,and general plot were not revolution,more evoloution

#83
Sylvius the Mad

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

compared to what was on offer or under development at the time yes it was ambitious yes however the themes,mechanics,and general plot were not revolution,more evoloution

Being revolutionary is not the only way to be ambitious.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In case people are wondering, my most looked forward to titles right now are Wasteland 2 and Firaxis' XCOM.  God help me if they both succeed in providing that open ended strategy AND the dynamite narrative that I love so much lol.

My list of the top 5 games of all time hasn't seen a new entry in 15 years.  Those two games might have a shot.

#84
Issala

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

compared to what was on offer or under development at the time yes it was ambitious yes however the themes,mechanics,and general plot were not revolution,more evoloution


That's the thing, isn't it? If all that's looked at from DA:O is the plotline, characters, setting, it doesn't really seem like anything special. But it's the way the story was executed that made it impressive. The sheer amount of content, lore, and just straight-up options in how the game can be played is not something you find in just every other game.
Also, what Sylvius said. Trying to bring back a genre that is underrated and overlooked is incredibly ambitious.

#85
jbrand2002uk

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I love all the lore and the sheer amount of content and hats off to them for that a more original story would have made it even better though

#86
Sylvius the Mad

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

I love all the lore and the sheer amount of content and hats off to them for that a more original story would have made it even better though

I don't dispute that.  I've lauded DA2's story structure.  I really like that aspect of DA2.

If only it were done better, and in a better game.

#87
jbrand2002uk

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I'd actually agree DA2 is pretty good considering the timeframe they had could have been alot better though

#88
batlin

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You guys know what another term for "hardcore fans" is? "Best customers".

EA tried this same bulls*** of attracting new customers in lieu of doing right by their best customers with the Ultima franchise. Hey Bioware, how many games has Origin Studios made lately?

Modifié par batlin, 05 juin 2012 - 11:14 .


#89
Fast Jimmy

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

I'd actually agree DA2 is pretty good considering the timeframe they had could have been alot better though


I don't give brownie points for a rushed time frame, or for limited zots. I don't buy a vacuum and say 'man, if they had more time with some of these engineering ideas, this would actually clean my floor really well!' I'd only complain that the vacuum only provided me with service for a month and then became worthless to clean my floors. 

Granted, other people's floors don't need as much vacuum suction. My floors are hard to clean, though. I don't get excited about a vacuum often. If you catch the metaphor. And Bioware is/was the king of vacuum cleaners. So I don't give them a free pass for the theoretical vacuum they sold me. 

#90
jbrand2002uk

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I'd actually agree DA2 is pretty good considering the timeframe they had could have been alot better though


I don't give brownie points for a rushed time frame, or for limited zots. I don't buy a vacuum and say 'man, if they had more time with some of these engineering ideas, this would actually clean my floor really well!' I'd only complain that the vacuum only provided me with service for a month and then became worthless to clean my floors. 

Granted, other people's floors don't need as much vacuum suction. My floors are hard to clean, though. I don't get excited about a vacuum often. If you catch the metaphor. And Bioware is/was the king of vacuum cleaners. So I don't give them a free pass for the theoretical vacuum they sold me. 


I tried to catch the metaphor but alas my Dyson ripped it out of my hand, gave it to a repair man to fix but it'll be awhile....... he took an arrow to the knee just before his wife slapped him for stealing her sweetroll 

#91
Cantina

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

That quote wasn't mine but it actually reflects my Bioware gaming experience pretty well (though I have to say I replayed DAII multiple times, but probably half as many times as I did DA:O).

I guess what I mean to say is that while we might not be "typical gamers" or part of the majority of your customers, we're still a legitimate part of your fan base that Bioware will, eventually lose if they can't make games that are they same quality we've come to expect and love from the company. I personally won't buy a game I don't expect to love enough to replay. I'll wait till I catch the flu and rent it, finish it in a few days, and call it 6 bucks well spent.


Playing with over 20 characters and purchasing the game twice is certainly an indicator that someone likes DAO, but I don't think it's a reasonably fair metric for how quality the game necessarily is.

Because someone only plays through the game once doesn't really give any information on whether or not that person found the game to be quality unless you start to examine other factors. I interpreted Tesclo's statement as a refutation that the idea that most people don't replay games is not actually the case, to which he then provided an anecdote based upon his own gaming experiences.

I don't even know that I've played any game close to 10 times. Fallout is probably the closest to it, but I'd probably guess maybe 6 times (in large part because it's a shorter game). As for other games:

BG: *didn't finish*
BG2: 2 times
KOTOR: 2 times
Vampire: Bloodlines: 3 times
Half-Life: 3 times
Half-Life 2: 2 times
Alpha Protocol: 3 times
Deus Ex: 3 times
ME1: 2 times
ME2: 1 time
ME3: 1 time
Ultima 7: 1 time
DAO: 1 time
PST: 1 time


My favourite game on that list is Planescape: Torment, and I only recall completing it once.

So for you, yeah hopefully the next BioWare game is one you'll want to replay 20 times, since that seems to be an acceptable measure of quality for you. I don't think it gives any indication on whether or not most people do or do not replay games (especially when hypothesizing about used game sales)




Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

#92
Allan Schumacher

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Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.


I'm very confused.

At what point do I give any indication that I'm not standing behind Dragon Age?  I'm also not sure why working at BioWare would require my favourite game to be made by the company that I work for.

#93
Sylvius the Mad

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

I'm very confused.

So am I.  Cantina is holding you to an insane standard.

#94
LobselVith8

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batlin wrote...

Just curious, I hadn't seen any news about it in E3.


Well, they are keeping voiced protagonist, the "paraphrasing," the auto-lines, the companions with their "distinct" attire, and it will be in the vein of Dragon Age II... I guess it will appeal to people who liked Dragon Age 2.

#95
BubbleDncr

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I played bought DA:O twice and played it through about 5 times - 4 complete playthroughs on the xbox, and 1 playthrough up to the Landsmeet on PC. Bought all the DLC and was depressed by most of them.

I've played through DA2 twice so far - twice when it first came out, then a 3rd time a few months later. Stopped my 3rd playthrough right before the final battle, in case any more DLC came out, that way I could do it during the actual story. Haven't finished it yet though, will probably do so before DA3 comes out. Also have started a 4th character, which I had originally been planning on doing after DA3 came out (as my 4th DA:O playthrough was after DA2 came out), but was just too excited.

I will probably never play Origins again because I hate the Fade so much, but if I finish my 4th playthrough of DA2 before DA3 comes out, I will probably do a 5th playthrough after DA3 comes out. So, if we use the logic that the game that gets the more playthoughs is the better game, it will probably end up being DA2. But good thing that's been prooven not to be sound logic.

#96
wsandista

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

I'm very confused.

So am I.  Cantina is holding you to an insane standard.


As am I. I don't think that everyone who works at McDonald's thinks that one of the "food"(I use the term loosely) sold by the establishment is their favorite.
PS:T was a brilliant game BTW I can see why people like it. It is one of the few games with a set protagonist that I enjoyed.

#97
jbrand2002uk

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.


I'm very confused.

At what point do I give any indication that I'm not standing behind Dragon Age? 
I'm also not sure why working at BioWare would require my favourite game to be made by the company that I work for.


I'm even more confused I could have sworn a second ago you were stood in front of it but now your behind it,how did you manage that being in 2 places at once nearly your a mage arnt you CALL THE CHANTRY THERES AN APOSTATE LOOSE! :D

I do understand the situation though I delivered Pizzas for Domino's but when asked would I actually buy one, with money my answer was always:

                                                        OH HELL NO! followed by sir/maam may i suggest you take a life insurance policy out if you havent got one already :D

#98
Vormaerin

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Dakota Strider wrote...

to echo Fast Jimmy: It is better to make a game that appeals to your hardcore fans.

Or you can make a game that your base of hardcore gamers are indifferent about,


Except that's not actually an either/or proposition.   Not to mention, the hard core fans don't have a unified position.

DAO was a better executed game than DA2, primarily because of polish.   But DA2 is a much better concept of a game.  I had a lot more fun playing it than I did playing DAO even with the lack of polish. I'd much rather that DA3 being a better version of 2 than another version of DAO.  

I'm a hardcore bioware fan and have been for more than 12 years.   I've played and enjoyed all their games except the star wars ones (because I don't like star wars).

However, I think its pretty obvious there are other equally hardcore fans who completely disagree with me about the relative merits of DAO or DA2.   So....?

#99
BubbleDncr

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Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.


*smacks head*

Just because you've worked on a video game doesn't mean it's your favorite game. There's a difference between making a game and being proud of it, and playing it and enjoying it.

Part of making a game means that, in many cases, you automatically know the story and what needs to be done to get through it. So all sense of exploration and discovery is pretty much gone, and plot twists that make other people's jaws drop have no effect on you.

Some people are just looking too hard to find proof that Bioware doesn't like DA2......sheesh.....

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 06 juin 2012 - 12:49 .


#100
The dead fish

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wsandista wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

I'm very confused.

So am I.  Cantina is holding you to an insane standard.


As am I. I don't think that everyone who works at McDonald's thinks that one of the "food"(I use the term loosely) sold by the establishment is their favorite.

Confused too.

" I'm working at bioware, all my favourite games are Bioware's games as well. Just because I need to promote them. " Ugh, that's ugly. :?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 juin 2012 - 01:03 .