764 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Again you assume that action fans WANT to RP a character at all. Many do not want to RP a character. Also please do not tell me what I want to do. I know what I want in a game much more than you do.

What exactly does it mean to roleplay a character?

Hmm.. This is sensitive and very subjective issue. 

For me it mean to assume to be a character, at it most basic definition.

The role is usually defined by Game Master but it can also be left open. A character can be pre-defined by Game Master but it can be also be left open for the player themselves.  Whether the game require a player to pretend to be a predefined character or open, the player must assume their character properly as deem as the narrative or the world they're based on. It mean the player must view the world, to think and to feel as the character. If the character are suppose to roleplay as Hawke then the player is assume to think, feel and view as Hawke - and I can't do that if the character automatically:

1. ) talk on his own
2.) emote on his own
3.) motivated on his own. 
 
 

Given what you have said then a gamer assuming the role of a soldier in a COD game would be role playing especially if in multiplayer. Since the person playing the role would meet your three qualifications even in single player.

Yes, at it most basic form. That's precisely why targeting CoD or Sport player or Super Mario players or anyone who can imagine is not illogical from roleplaying perspective. Even children roleplay all the time with their toys. 

At more complex definition, however I won't comment. Because this where we cannot agree with each other.

Edit: The irony is, even in this most simple definition, most people in an RPG cannot fulfill this requirement properly because they tend to view NOT from their character's eyes but from their own eyes. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 06 juin 2012 - 06:31 .

[AkiKishi]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Financially it makes sense to attempt to woo COD's audience because even if you dislike the franchise its still the best selling one around and has been for quite awhile and personally i dont see anything wrong with trying to because lets face it even though RPG's are steadily becoming more popular they still have the "Nerd" image attached to them.

In any case if we RPG's gamers start insulting the "COD Crowd" all it does is make us all look like the "entitled elitists" we are often branded as

In theory yes. But it relies on the assumption that the CoD crowd give a crap about DA. Which they really don't. Even Between Mass Effect and Dragon age, which are practically the same except for setting and mechanics, there are people who will play one while ignoring the other. That being the case, expecting that people will play an RPG just because they happen to play games with elements of character building is flawed.
 

[Allan Schumacher]

joshko wrote...
Well if you want to get super techincle the only true way to role play is to LARP .

Well, I guess it's just that I didn't even know that I was a roleplaying game fan until I played Ultima 6.  Though the first game I ever heard called an "RPG" is Final Fantasy 2/4 when my friend got it for SNES.

With Ultima 6, it was cool to run around and fight.  The conversation system was a bit clunky.  I loved the Medieval aspect of it, and the first PC I ever got was because I fell in love with Ultima 7 playing on a friend's computer.  I loved the character progression and the idea that I got more powerful as I completed objectives and killed bad guys.  Stuff like that haha.

[AkiKishi]

joshko wrote...

Cantina wrote...


Wait a second here…<blinks> did I just see what I saw.

<Reads again> Yep, sure did.

To see a person from their own company come out and say, they enjoyed another game aside from one they were apart of is just…damn. Begs me to wonder how Bioware can promote a game like Dragon Age when one of their own does not even stand behind it and finds another game far more appealing.

You do know that Bioware employees are allowed to like games from a different company right?

Employees tend to be a lot less fanatical than fans.

[AkiKishi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Again you assume that action fans WANT to RP a character at all. Many do not want to RP a character. Also please do not tell me what I want to do. I know what I want in a game much more than you do.

What exactly does it mean to roleplay a character?

I don't think in a CRPG it really matters that much. What I'm looking for is a good story and the ability to shape that story. Whether it's by playing the gameplay elements to get to the next scene, or by the actions during the story shaping the ending.

Otherwise it relies on sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalala and ignoring a lot of stuff. The best RPGs I've played recently have all had fixed characters, as did PST. Granted with PST the character having amnesia initially made for a better illusion of ownership, but the character was still woven into the game and you really had no more say in the matter , than you did with Adam Jensen or Geralt.

To address your earlier point about the typical gamer. No , I don't consider myself typical at all.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 juin 2012 - 06:40 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 06 juin 2012 - 06:47 .

[AkiKishi]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

There was an interview where they said they "wanted the CoD crowd" (that was the headline not the quote).

Yet DA2 did the exact opposite, it lost customers in droves. Same thing has happened time and again with games that went after a phantom audience that never cared anyway.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 juin 2012 - 06:51 .

[batlin]

joshko wrote...

I think it's not so much that they don't want to RP a character it's to what extent do they want to.

A die hard RP player will have no problem being forced to sleep at night and eat three times a day, but any one else probably wouldn't find that pleasent.

But that does not mean that any one else would not enjoy the more relaxed, and "fun" I suppose you could put it, forms of RPing (such as how you look or whether you want your one hander to be two or three times bigger than your body.)

I don't know what "role-playing game" means to you, but to most it is a game in which you role play. If all you want to do is micromanage, I think The Sims is a better choice for you.

What people want in an RPG isn't an accurate approximation of life (like Heavy Rain, god forbid), what they want is player agency. That is, the ability to go about one's business unhindered by a railroaded plot. This is the reason games like Skyrim have done so well while JRPGs, where linearity is practically a staple, have been taking a nose-dive in sales. What DA2 is is a JRPG in a WRPG's clothing. Linear quests, phoned-in sidequests, no event happens out of the order that the game dictates, hell, you can't even talk to your friends whenever you want. Want to put the moves on Isabela? Too bad sucker, you gotta wait six years before you can nail her, and only then when the game demands it.

PS:T did this very, very well. Same with Skyrim (albeit the dialogue options in that game were lacking, there's few NPCs you can't kill indiscriminately), DA:O, KotOR, etc etc etc.

[batlin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

There was an interview where they said they "wanted the CoD crowd" (that was the headline not the quote).

Yet DA2 did the exact opposite, it lost customers in droves. Same thing has happened time and again with games that went after a phantom audience that never cared anyway.

http://www.nowgamer....s_audience.html

Modifié par batlin, 06 juin 2012 - 06:55 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

batlin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

There was an interview where they said they "wanted the CoD crowd" (that was the headline not the quote).

Yet DA2 did the exact opposite, it lost customers in droves. Same thing has happened time and again with games that went after a phantom audience that never cared anyway.

http://www.nowgamer....s_audience.html

eh, I stand corrected. Bob is right, DA should focus on developing its own brand and cultivating its own audience, rather than aping other popular games like COD or Skyrim. There are tons of knockoff shooters crowding the shelves, but only a few great story driven RPGs.

[batlin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

eh, I stand corrected. Bob is right, DA should focus on developing its own brand and cultivating its own audience, rather than aping other popular games like COD or Skyrim. There are tons of knockoff shooters crowding the shelves, but only a few great story driven RPGs.

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

[AkiKishi]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

batlin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

There was an interview where they said they "wanted the CoD crowd" (that was the headline not the quote).

Yet DA2 did the exact opposite, it lost customers in droves. Same thing has happened time and again with games that went after a phantom audience that never cared anyway.

http://www.nowgamer....s_audience.html

eh, I stand corrected. Bob is right, DA should focus on developing its own brand and cultivating its own audience, rather than aping other popular games like COD or Skyrim. There are tons of knockoff shooters crowding the shelves, but only a few great story driven RPGs.

That's kind of what they did with DAO. Then threw it all away with DA2. Just having an open enviroment for example is not going to lead to tons of Skyrim fans buying DA3. The games have very little in common.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[Plaintiff]

Is this passive-aggressive style of questioning supposed to hide your insults?

batlin wrote...

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

When did anybody say that ever? What possible misuse of logic could have led you to this conclusion?

"RPG makers can't take influence from things that aren't RPGs! That would be madness!"

Guess that means they can't look to literature or film or art for inspiration either.

[AndrahilAdrian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

batlin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't understand why people keep bringing up call of duty. I followed the buildup to DA2 pretty closely, and at no point did they cite COD as an influence, and I for one did not get fps vibes from the final product. The gameplay of DA2 felt like a more refined version of DA1, not an overhaul that took it in a whole new direction. And the original question is silly. Of course the developers will try to reel in new customers. I doubt there has been a single game, or even a single product, that hasn't tried to do that.

There was an interview where they said they "wanted the CoD crowd" (that was the headline not the quote).

Yet DA2 did the exact opposite, it lost customers in droves. Same thing has happened time and again with games that went after a phantom audience that never cared anyway.

http://www.nowgamer....s_audience.html

eh, I stand corrected. Bob is right, DA should focus on developing its own brand and cultivating its own audience, rather than aping other popular games like COD or Skyrim. There are tons of knockoff shooters crowding the shelves, but only a few great story driven RPGs.

That's kind of what they did with DAO. Then threw it all away with DA2. Just having an open enviroment for example is not going to lead to tons of Skyrim fans buying DA3. The games have very little in common.

In addition, DA as a brand has its own strengths (tactical combat, gripping plot, etc.) which Skyrim can't match. If Bioware start ignoring DA's strengths and start drawing from Skyrim, we'll end up with a rubbish version of a Bethesda game, rather than a great bioware game. The two companies have different code bases, employees, etc, and so have their own niches. Bioware should play to its strengths, rather than aping the latest hot selling RPG. 

[AkiKishi]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

In addition, DA as a brand has its own strengths (tactical combat, gripping plot, etc.) which Skyrim can't match. If Bioware start ignoring DA's strengths and start drawing from Skyrim, we'll end up with a rubbish version of a Bethesda game, rather than a great bioware game. The two companies have different code bases, employees, etc, and so have their own niches. Bioware should play to its strengths, rather than aping the latest hot selling RPG. 

Pretty much yes. Like people here are always going on about Witcher making you be a straight white guy. That really never hurt their sales at all. Witcher2 has a much better gaming rep because it stayed true to itself. Sure some people don't like it,because it's dark and viloent and whatnot. But plenty of people do because it's not trying to to be PG13.

Just FYI CDPRs next game is based on CyberPunk 2020.

[batlin]

Plaintiff wrote...

batlin wrote...

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

When did anybody say that ever?

Right here:

"We have data that shows there are a lot of people that enjoy playing RPGs although they won’t necessarily call them RPGs. They’ll play Fallout, Assassin’s Creed and even Call Of Duty, which have these progression elements – you’re putting points into things"

- Fernando Melo, senior producer at Bioware

Any other questions?

Modifié par batlin, 06 juin 2012 - 07:35 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

Plaintiff wrote...

Is this passive-aggressive style of questioning supposed to hide your insults?

batlin wrote...

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

When did anybody say that ever? What possible misuse of logic could have led you to this conclusion?

"RPG makers can't take influence from things that aren't RPGs! That would be madness!"

Guess that means they can't look to literature or film or art for inspiration either.

Looking to literature or film is playing to bioware's strengths (story, character development, etc.). Looking to CoD isn't playing to bioware's strengths, because CoD is about as far from the BW tradition as you can get (its multiplayer, its 1st person, the focus is on frentic unceasing action rather than tactics and story). It would be like Stephen Spielberg drawing influence from Michael Bay. 

[AndrahilAdrian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

In addition, DA as a brand has its own strengths (tactical combat, gripping plot, etc.) which Skyrim can't match. If Bioware start ignoring DA's strengths and start drawing from Skyrim, we'll end up with a rubbish version of a Bethesda game, rather than a great bioware game. The two companies have different code bases, employees, etc, and so have their own niches. Bioware should play to its strengths, rather than aping the latest hot selling RPG. 

Pretty much yes. Like people here are always going on about Witcher making you be a straight white guy. That really never hurt their sales at all. Witcher2 has a much better gaming rep because it stayed true to itself. Sure some people don't like it,because it's dark and viloent and whatnot. But plenty of people do because it's not trying to to be PG13.

Just FYI CDPRs next game is based on CyberPunk 2020.

I actually quite like creating my own character. I think The Witcher would have been a better RPG if you could input the character's class, race, etc. Perticularly since Geralt's vibrant personality (/sarcasm) didn't really make up for the restriction. For me, creating a semi-unique character is half the fun of an RPG, because it makes the story more personal. Frankly, CDPR seem like they want to join square enix in the filmaking business, or at least branch out into choose your own adventure novels. I did enjoy the game for what it was though.

[Plaintiff]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Is this passive-aggressive style of questioning supposed to hide your insults?

batlin wrote...

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

When did anybody say that ever? What possible misuse of logic could have led you to this conclusion?

"RPG makers can't take influence from things that aren't RPGs! That would be madness!"

Guess that means they can't look to literature or film or art for inspiration either.

Looking to literature or film is playing to bioware's strengths (story, character development, etc.). Looking to CoD isn't playing to bioware's strengths, because CoD is about as far from the BW tradition as you can get (its multiplayer, its 1st person, the focus is on frentic unceasing action rather than tactics and story). It would be like Stephen Spielberg drawing influence from Michael Bay. 

That has nothing at all to do with anything I just said. It's a complete non-sequiter.

Batlin is trying to make the argument that Bioware has no idea what an RPG is, by claiming that they consider CoD to be one. Whether they actually did draw influence from CoD is irrelevent. Whether or not you consider that to be a good thing is also irrelevent. It does not mean that they consider CoD to be an RPG. It's a nonsense argument.

[AkiKishi]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
I actually quite like creating my own character. I think The Witcher would have been a better RPG if you could input the character's class, race, etc. Perticularly since Geralt's vibrant personality (/sarcasm) didn't really make up for the restriction. For me, creating a semi-unique character is half the fun of an RPG, because it makes the story more personal. Frankly, CDPR seem like they want to join square enix in the filmaking business, or at least branch out into choose your own adventure novels. I did enjoy the game for what it was though.

I can take it or leave it. In the case of DA2 creating your own character was a waste of time. That particular story required Geralt. It would not have worked with anyone else (although elements of it might have). That being the case I have no problem with a set character.

Irony of that statement is that FFXIII-2 has more endings and choice and consquence than DA2.

[batlin]

Plaintiff wrote...

Batlin is trying to make the argument that Bioware has no idea what an RPG is, by claiming that they consider
CoD to be one. Whether they actually did draw influence from CoD is irrelevent. Whether or not you consider that to be a good thing is also irrelevent. It does not mean that they consider CoD to be an RPG. It's a nonsense argument.

Since you clearly missed my last post:

Plaintiff wrote...

batlin wrote...

What disturbs me more than Bioware citing CoD as an influence for DA2 is that there's at least one person at Bioware who thinks CoD is an RPG, simply because it involves putting experience points into skills.

When did anybody say that ever?

Right here:

"We have data that shows there are a lot of people that enjoy playing RPGs although they won’t necessarily call them RPGs. They’ll play Fallout, Assassin’s Creed and even Call Of Duty, which have these progression elements – you’re putting points into things"

- Fernando Melo, senior producer at Bioware

Any other questions?

Modifié par batlin, 06 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

Plaintiff wrote...

Batlin is trying to make the argument that Bioware has no idea what an RPG is, by claiming that they consider CoD to be one. Whether they actually did draw influence from CoD is irrelevent. Whether or not you consider that to be a good thing is also irrelevent. It does not mean that they consider CoD to be an RPG. It's a nonsense argument.

We have data that shows there are a lot of people that enjoy playing RPGs although they won’t necessarily call them RPGs. They’ll play Fallout, Assassin’s Creed and even Call Of Duty, which have these progression elements – you’re putting points into things"

- Fernando Melo, senior producer at Bioware
Batlin's quote made it abundantly clear that at least one guy at Bioware thinks CoD is an RPG, so unless you're arguing that he's right, I think we're done here.

Edit:

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 06 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[AkiKishi]

Plaintiff wrote...

That has nothing at all to do with anything I just said. It's a complete non-sequiter.

Batlin is trying to make the argument that Bioware has no idea what an RPG is, by claiming that they consider CoD to be one. Whether they actually did draw influence from CoD is irrelevent. Whether or not you consider that to be a good thing is also irrelevent. It does not mean that they consider CoD to be an RPG. It's a nonsense argument.

The quote is there. Now while they may be trying to broaden the definition, character building does not an RPG make. Most action/adventure games have character building, they have a story , they may even branch. But they are still defined as action/adventure not RPG.

What he's trying to say is people who play games with character building are playing RPGs whether they know it or not. Thus they should be playing Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age 2's design went in a direction to woo such players.Even though they could not really care less.
Not only did they not get this new phantom crowd, they lost a lot of the people who enjoyed DAO as well.

[AndrahilAdrian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

That has nothing at all to do with anything I just said. It's a complete non-sequiter.

Batlin is trying to make the argument that Bioware has no idea what an RPG is, by claiming that they consider CoD to be one. Whether they actually did draw influence from CoD is irrelevent. Whether or not you consider that to be a good thing is also irrelevent. It does not mean that they consider CoD to be an RPG. It's a nonsense argument.

The quote is there. Now while they may be trying to broaden the definition, character building does not an RPG make. Most action/adventure games have character building, they have a story , they may even branch. But they are still defined as action/adventure not RPG.

What he's trying to say is people who play games with character building are playing RPGs whether they know it or not. Thus they should be playing Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age 2's design went in a direction to woo such players.Even though they could not really care less.
Not only did they not get this new phantom crowd, they lost a lot of the people who enjoyed DAO as well.

To be fair, I think DA2's problems came from plain bad game design, not going in the wrong direction entirely. The main issues with it (endless recycling, boring environments, an unfocused story, and boring characters) are better chalked up to either plain incompetance or a rushed dev schedule, neither of which can be blamed on CoD.