38 réponses à ce sujet

[Nhani]

Right, this has been stewing in my mind for some time, so I thought I'd have an ask.. (and since the search function does not seem to lead me to such a topic existing prior)

Is it just me, or is the Guardian in the Sacred Ashes quest a bit of a tosser when your origin comes up? I get that the scene is supposed to be this poignant introspective where your character gets a chance to question whether they're doing the right thing or not, but the choices you are given for a reply strikes me as something of a farce at best.

It just strikes me as an utterly binary choice - either you say that yes, I totally failed those who depended on me and if I'd only done this arbitrary thing that really wouldn't have done anything better, it would all have been alright and the Guardian happily acknowledges your ability to regret, or you say that no, I don't think I failed them because there wasn't anything I could've done and the Guardian declares you a cold, heartless bastard who doesn't dwell on the past in any way, shape or form, which is either an excessive guilt trip or an invitation to slap him but good for the insult.

Now I admit, I've only ever reached him as either a human noble or a dwarven noble, and while the former one had some dodgy options, the latter seemed to suggest the Guardian was outright senile - because if I did not plan or indeed have anything at all to do with my brothers' murder and instead arrived to find his corpse in a timely enough manner to be accused for having caused it, how does thinking myself innocent regarding his death say anything whatsoever about whether I dwell on mistakes or not?

I realize this is a rather petty gripe about a rather short singular dialogue in the game, but it keeps bothering me, especially since your companions seem to get so much more apt questions (and get to answer in what seems more satisfying ways). 

[Whailor]

Yeah, I was a bit annoyed about this too, I mean he literally expects you to break down, cry and lament how you failed to.. whomever. I usually always told him that no, I have no regrets. Choices I made were done while my char was, in fact, sober and after he had put thought into it and then decided (heh, in some cases I became Grey Warden only because Duncan used his Right of Conscription on me, because I said "No, I won't join"), but in any case my char never regretted the choice. And of course his response is always condescending, or close to it. What the heck. Some lyrium addled old timer who's been sitting in some ruin for a thousand years thinks he has the right to wag his finger at me?

[PatT2]

I did not have that same experience. As a human noble. I did acknowledge that I felt that I left my parents to their fate, and the guardian said "you can express regret and at the same time, have learned to not hold on to it." So it was an answer that suggested that I did it all okay. Perhaps you chose the wrong response to get an appreciative answer?



Here's the weird one. You should see what happens when the Guardian goes to talk to Morrigan. Hmmm.... I won't spoil it. Bring her and try it. More the mystery that girl.

[kormesios]

I loved the choice on my city elf playthrough (my first one): Was her death your fault? Obviously it was really the fault of the human noble, but my response ("Yes. I could have run faster.") fit my character's personality perfectly.



On the mage thing it was a weak set of options; I took the "No" option.



I think how well it fits depends on actual choices you made in the origin, plus how you view your character. It can be a great scene, seem poorly written.



Or, if it doesn't fit, you can also decide the Andraste sect is a bunch of guilt-mongering nanny types, who expect all mortals to flagellate themselves.

[Curlain]

Yeah it can be a bit either or with the Guardian, with some PC's it was more appropiate, with others I had a feeling that there wasn't really an good answer, cause yes my PC felt sorry about the said person dying, getting tainted, hurt etc, but my PC felt they had done everything, but did care about them. And it didn't allow you to express this.

Then again, the Guardian has been in that Temple alone for a long time, with no one to talk to, mabye his social skills have just become really rusty. Then again, mabye he really just is a b*stard who like playing mind games

Modifié par Curlain, 12 décembre 2009 - 02:19 .

[SarEnyaDor]

ooooh! I can't stand Morrigan, so I never bring her anywhere, now I'm interested in bringing her to the temple...

[Nhani]

PatT2 wrote...

I did not have that same experience. As a human noble. I did acknowledge that I felt that I left my parents to their fate, and the guardian said "you can express regret and at the same time, have learned to not hold on to it." So it was an answer that suggested that I did it all okay. Perhaps you chose the wrong response to get an appreciative answer?

Huh, I suppose I'll have to do some more trying around with what means what. Seems the times I've been by there, the options I got were either "Yes I failed because I didn't do some random thing that wouldn't have helped" and he'll say that was what he wanted to hear, or "No I didn't fail them because they told me to run/there was nothing I could do/it wasn't my fault" and I get to be declared someone who doesn't consider the mistakes of either themselves nor anyone else.

Suppose I might be searching too hard for an answer going "I'm trying my best not to."

[PatT2]

Haha. I just said what I would have said in real life, given the options, which weren't very good. None of them actually reflected how I felt about what happened.



I usually don't take Morrigan with me because I have Wynne with me, and those 2 really don't get along. I mean REALLY don't. It's more trouble than its worth to hear them bicker. If they were my kids, I'd leave one of them in an orphanage or something. Well, probably not. But it would sure be tempting.



I needed her this playthrough for her talents. So I decided to bite the bullet. And was flummoxed by the guardian encounter with her. And then decidedly surprised and amazed at her response to the ashes themselves. All in all, I'd take her with again. Not that it brought any more insight into her character. All it did was confuse me about her all the more.



I do like Morrigan when she's alone. I've found a way to talk to her that usually gives me+ with her. I just don't know what the heck she is.

[SarEnyaDor]

I like her in camp fine, just not on any quest as I really hate her "Are we going to rescue kittens now?" Morrigan disapproves -5 crapola.



Why, if I saw some kittens I WOULD RESCUE THEM!!!

[Nhani]

PatT2 wrote...
Haha. I just said what I would have said in real life, given the options, which weren't very good. None of them actually reflected how I felt about what happened.

That's probably my problem right there. Of all the dialogues I've gone through in the game, I think that one was the one that's struck out the most as not letting me express what I felt was going through my characters' head at the time.

Where are my angry refusals and denials or my sad and meek hopings that I'm doing the best I can!

[kormesios]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

ooooh! I can't stand Morrigan, so I never bring her anywhere, now I'm interested in bringing her to the temple...

Well, a very minor spoiler: She doesn't say anything, other than a curt "I will not play your games, spirit."  He never even finishes his question, so you don't even hear what she might feel guilty about.

Her dreamworld thing in the circle of mages is hilarious, though.

[SarEnyaDor]

I did take her there, replaced Dog with Wynne, so I saw that on my very first playthrough where I never entered the tavern, never talked to Sten and ran out of Lothering not knowing that it would poof! when I got out of the Mage Tower. LOL

[Korva]

When I ran through the gauntlet a second time to see how companions whom I normally don't bring with me react, I chose a "there was nothing I could do" kind of reply and didn't feel the Guardian's reaction was designed as a guilt trip.

Nhani wrote...

Now I admit, I've only ever reached him as either a human noble or a dwarven noble, and while the former one had some dodgy options, the latter seemed to suggest the Guardian was outright senile - because if I did not plan or indeed have anything at all to do with my brothers' murder and instead arrived to find his corpse in a timely enough manner to be accused for having caused it, how does thinking myself innocent regarding his death say anything whatsoever about whether I dwell on mistakes or not?

Eh, that sounds annoying. I wonder if the Biowarians assumed the player would kill Trian, and the option not to do so was only put in as an afterthought. When you're in jail and Gorim comes, half the possible replies to him boggled my mind because they were along the lines of "I'm a murderer, I'm a horrible person, I deserve any punishment!" Hello? I didn't do a damn thing, it was Bhelen! So why would I be guilt-tripping myself?

(Impressive work on the comic by the way, if you are who I think you are.)

Modifié par Korva, 12 décembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[Caffinated]

On my first run through with my elven mage, the question made sense and I was indeed somewhat sorry/conflicted about how I'd handled Jawan (?). On my second run through with a commoner dwarf, it didn't make any sense at all. I'd gone back and made my sister's patron king. She and my mother were living in the palace. I can't see how I'd feel that I failed them, so the question didn't make sense.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

when he asked my mage about Jowan, i told him basically to mind his own business and gave him no answer. true, i didn;t get that nifty little charm necklace, but so what. It wasn't his biz, and the answers you chose from simply didn't cut it. My mage at that point didn't care, she regretted more no being able to nail Cullen before he flipped out and went bat **** crazy.

[MatronAdena]

In person I naturally let things fall away, and not dwell on them....Yeah the guardian sorta makes it come across " to my ears" as a negative thing to be made guilt ridden over, which I have my own sorta " that's western theology/philosophy reasons for ya" sorta way. Making my own, and thus my wardens " more eastern" approach to things seem...well Like the game is debasing me verbally for not liking it's mythology...



I don't mean it in a " horrid writing" sorta disliking the mythos...more a IC " that's all very interesting, and I enjoyed learning about your beliefs, but in no way do I share the same beliefs and rather you not shove them in my face constantly" sorta way...Sorta like I do when the nice young men in the suits come to my door every Saturday morning. >.<

[thegreateski]

I purposely fail the last "test" just so I can kill his arse.

Does that make me a bad person?

Modifié par thegreateski, 02 janvier 2010 - 04:29 .

[Catwall]

I seem to remember getting approval from Morrigan when I told the spirit that "My thoughts are my own". Then Alistair wondered aloud about how I really felt. At least I didn't take a dispo hit for not being adequately handwring-y and introspective.



If there had been a "My feelings about what has brought me this far cannot be easily summarized for your judgment, so bugger off", I'd have chosen that. Honestly, after all that my Cousland had dealt with, I felt she deserved some respectful distance.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Caffinated wrote...

On my first run through with my elven mage, the question made sense and I was indeed somewhat sorry/conflicted about how I'd handled Jawan (?). On my second run through with a commoner dwarf, it didn't make any sense at all. I'd gone back and made my sister's patron king. She and my mother were living in the palace. I can't see how I'd feel that I failed them, so the question didn't make sense.

I don't think it takes into account anything you do after your origin, only what you did in the Origin, so thus it accounts it to you leaving your sister and mother back home with no money coming in from you. My brutish cold hearted dwarf went through with the no regrets option. My current dwarf commoner who is nice as pie, will probably state that he does as he got all excited about the idea of going topside and 'making a name for himself'.

Zevran's is good, funniest thing was, the first time I took him there, was just after he had told me about the incident that the guardian actually speaks of, so it wasn't surprising to hear Zevran's response (although the way he reacts to the situation is funny anyway).

[twintalons]

That's weird, he seems to be fine with whatever option I say! On my last play I deliberately reloaded and picked the opposite from what I first said just to see what he'd do, but he reacted as if it was ok no matter whether I said 'no regrets' or 'i should have done more'

I was a dalish elf if that makes any difference .....

[Asylumer]

You shouldn't be bothered by what some stupid guardian thinks. His response probably tied to his limited spirit's perception or he thrives on guilt and is annoyed that you didn't feed him or something.



Guy's a jerk!

[_Dejanus]

I agree that this segment was entirely too binary.



However, some of the companion introspectives made it worthwhile. Sten's is truly great.

[thegreateski]

I think the guy is a spirit of guilt.



thoughts?

[Gold Dragon]

I think he's just a joke.