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[The Angry One]

I've pointed this out many times and I've yet to get a satisfactory response, therefore I am making a topic about it because I crave attention.

For the purposes of this discussion, we will assume that Reaper ascension is just that, that somehow melting bodies into grey/orange goo does ascend them into the mind of a superior (in the Catalyst's view) Reaper form.

Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.
Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.

So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!

[Theodoro]

Not to mention that the Catalyst also says that Shepard will die in the Destroy ending, saying that even he/she is "partly synthetic". The mere fact that Shepard does survive the Destroy ending when the Catalyst just said that he/she wouldn't is a hint that he should not be trusted.

[The Angry One]

Theodoro wrote...

Not to mention that the Catalyst also says that Shepard will die in the Destroy ending, saying that even he/she is "partly synthetic". The mere fact that Shepard does survive the Destroy ending when the Catalyst just said that he/she wouldn't is a hint that he should not be trusted.

Very true, almost everything the Catalyst says is a lie in that regard.
However those are mostly lies of omission, or can be worked out to be lies by using common sense.

The "ascension" lie is particularily damning because it is SHOWING YOU the proof that it's lying right there. 
It would be like a serial killer proclaiming their innocence while carrying the severed heads of their victims in a bag right there in court.

[Joeybsmooth4]

Theodoro wrote...

Not to mention that the Catalyst also says that Shepard will die in the Destroy ending, saying that even he/she is "partly synthetic". The mere fact that Shepard does survive the Destroy ending when the Catalyst just said that he/she wouldn't is a hint that he should not be trusted.

I don’t think it says you will die, it just makes that
strong implication. But the issue is with a story telling here.. since Shep
does not challenge what it says it seems that we are to take it at face value .
I mean Shepard  does. Personally I would not trust it but the games tells us to trust it .

[maxloef]

to make your argument stronger, when talking to the catalyst you see them blowing up starships in the background, each ship having a crew of a few hundred people? wheres your ascension now?

[Theodoro]

And Shepard should have been able to point that out to the Catalyst that his "ascension" program is nothing more than a synonym for destruction and annihilation, harvesting, transforming and indoctrinating.

Also, if you've picked up on that, even though the Catalyst says that the Citadel is part of him and that he controls the Reapers, he says to Shepard: "I know you've thought about destroying us."

Wait - "us"? The Catalyst isn't just some middleman here - he's simply the voice of the Reapers. So Shepard didn't believe anything Sovereign, Harbinger or the Reaper on Rannoch told him/her, but because of the fact that the StarChild shows up as the Vent Boy that he/she couldn't save, Shepard immediately trusts his every word? Boy, is the savior of the galaxy easy to manipulate!

[Vigilant111]

Even if the Catalyst is not lying, it is certainly NOT RIGHT about EVERYTHING, especially that "created blah blah creators" bit

EDIT: being ambiguous can be a strong evidence of lying

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 juin 2012 - 01:48 .

[The Angry One]

I bet Harby and Sovvy are banging their heads against the wall thinking "All we had to do was take the form of a 10 year old boy and Shepard would've bought everything we said!?"

On ascension, while for the sake of discussion I'm assuming it to be literal just to show that even if it is, the Catalyst is still lying, it is actually just sugar-coating genocide.
Real life war criminals have done this too. It's propaganda, to make these vile acts of torture and murder seem acceptable to the gullible among us (i.e. Shepard).

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[Theodoro]

The Angry One wrote...

I bet Harby and Sovvy are banging their heads against the wall thinking "All we had to do was take the form of a 10 year old boy and Shepard would've bought everything we said!?"

Yeah, well, subtlety isn't exactly their strong suit - at least not after Sovereign revealed himself. But back in ME1 and ME2 there were no game models for children, so their plan wouldn't have worked anyway. As soon as the first child shows up - they immediately assume control. Kudos to them!

[General User]

The Angry One wrote...
The "ascension" lie is particularily damning because it is SHOWING YOU the proof that it's lying right there. 
It would be like a serial killer proclaiming their innocence while carrying the severed heads of their victims in a bag right there in court.

Poetic.  And accurate. 

I think it's pretty obvious that the Catalyst doesn't really understand oraganics (arguably it doesn't understand synthetics like EDI or Legion either).  Whether that's because it's insane, got ideological blinders on, was never a true (ie sentient) AI in the first place, or just isn't particularly bright, or some combination thereof.  Take your pick.

[xxSanitysuxx]

Plus, Starchild isnt actually "preserving" species which have been harvested at all...
Reapers are made from harvested species, right? If Starchild was sooooooo goddamn concerned about the preservation of a species, why in the blue hell does he send dozens of reapers to their deaths in ME3??? Just to harvest a few other species, he's sacrificing several other species to extinction since their "preserved" reaper form is being destroyed by the galactic fleet.

If you wanna preserve species, dont use them to harvest other species, u ******!!!!! Use pure synthetic creations of your own, or use something else, instead of endangering the very things you aim to save. What a stupid little fool

[Vigilant111]

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Plus, Starchild isnt actually "preserving" species which have been harvested at all...
Reapers are made from harvested species, right? If Starchild was sooooooo goddamn concerned about the preservation of a species, why in the blue hell does he send dozens of reapers to their deaths in ME3??? Just to harvest a few other species, he's sacrificing several other species to extinction since their "preserved" reaper form is being destroyed by the galactic fleet.

If you wanna preserve species, dont use them to harvest other species, u ******!!!!! Use pure synthetic creations of your own, or use something else, instead of endangering the very things you aim to save. What a stupid little fool

^ interesting

"make way for better life" apperantly means working for the reapers

[The Angry One]

General User wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
The "ascension" lie is particularily damning because it is SHOWING YOU the proof that it's lying right there. 
It would be like a serial killer proclaiming their innocence while carrying the severed heads of their victims in a bag right there in court.

Poetic.  And accurate. 

I think it's pretty obvious that the Catalyst doesn't really understand oraganics (arguably it doesn't understand synthetics like EDI or Legion either).  Whether that's because it's insane, got ideological blinders on, was never a true (ie sentient) AI in the first place, or just isn't particularly bright, or some combination thereof.  Take your pick.

Certainly there are any number of good storytelling possibilities that would lead the Catalyst to be like this.
It doesn't HAVE to be evil, it could be caught in a feedback loop or not know any better.
A good example are the Shadows and Vorlons in Babylon 5. Neither were actually evil, they were just so caught up in their ideological feud that they didn't realise the young races didn't need them anymore.

The problem is, of course, the narrative demands we trust the Catalyst and take what it says at face value, because Shepard can't point out the obvious flaws in it's arguments.

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 01:56 .

[kaotician]

The Catalyst isn't lying - it's the truth of a racist, in the sense that for him organics are not being murdered as he sees us as just a race in the first place - for him, therefore, the loss of a few million individual lives as we would see them just doesn't matter, as the essence of the race is preserved as a soup for efficiency in transportation (later to be reconstituted as needed, as mindles slaves, like the Collectors/Protheans - unless somehow the reapers were letting them breed au naturel for 50,000 years on one of the ships).

[MisterJB]

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[RavenEyry]

Funny how a lot of the people who say he's not lying about Shep dying in destroy because he only infers it also insist the geth must die because Mr. Sparkle says so, even though that was also an inference.

[Theodoro]

I can't believe how accurate the Reapers are when they say that their motives are "beyond our comprehension". I would have never guessed that it would be the amount of utter stupidity and failure of logic that we won't be able to understand, if we take anything said by the Catalyst at face value.

[dreamgazer]

The Angry One wrote...

It would be like a serial killer proclaiming their innocence while carrying the severed heads of their victims in a bag right there in court.

(laughs) I like that.

I think he and his motives are a hell of a lot more elegant than that, but it made me chuckle in context of the point you're (accurately) making. 

[Sousabird]

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

Theodoro wrote...

Not to mention that the Catalyst also says that Shepard will die in the Destroy ending, saying that even he/she is "partly synthetic". The mere fact that Shepard does survive the Destroy ending when the Catalyst just said that he/she wouldn't is a hint that he should not be trusted.

I don’t think it says you will die, it just makes that
strong implication. But the issue is with a story telling here.. since Shep
does not challenge what it says it seems that we are to take it at face value .
I mean Shepard  does. Personally I would not trust it but the games tells us to trust it .

No he pretty much spells it out that you're screwed if you pick destroy (which is the case most of the time)

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

Then why does it deny killing us? It specifically says it isn't.
It doesn't even resort to the standard "Some deaths are necesarry for progress".

The exact line is:

Shepard: "But you killed the rest."

Catalyst: "We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[Sousabird]

My theory if we accept it at face value and that shep is made of implants but doesn't die I believe it's because with high enough EMS the crucible is precise enough only to destroy REAPER tech, that is why EDI never survives, but Shepard does I also think if this were true then the Geth would live but be reverted to before they uploaded reaper code (or they just got vaporized too....)

[ardias89]

Finally someone found the simple argument that the pro-enders cannot dogde. Thank you

[PoisonMushroom]

How dare you try and bring logic to the ending. It has no place here.

These discussions are kind of pointless if you ask me because it's stupidly difficult to tell evidence from a plothole with these endings.

I think the biggest counter argument is that trustworthy or not, the ending scenes make it appear that he told the truth.

[The Angry One]

Personally I'm not pointing this out as evidence of anything other than bad writing.
The narrative clearly wants us to trust the Catalyst, and forces us to by giving us no other options. Even destroy is contingent on trusting what the Catalyst says to be true.

This is why the narrative is broken, because at the very least if the Catalyst was brutally honest about it's views and goals that would be something (as in "yes, we kill a significant amount of organics because...") but instead it resorts to false platitudes and roundabout justifications just as any villain would do.

[Helmschmied]

Please, stop calling him the Catalyst. He can't be Catalyst, because if he is, the ones that designed the Crucible to begin with were the Reapers themselves, which don't make no sense.