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[mass perfection]

And everything it says is some of the most retarded stuff I've ever heard.

[kaotician]

If preserving organic life is so important to the Catalyst, why does he fly the older civilisations around like soup in a can into battle, rather than leaving them safely in dark space, taking just machines, plus the Geth, for his purposes?

Modifié par kaotician, 05 juin 2012 - 05:46 .

[Sisterofshane]

Lord Goose wrote...

Shepard: But you've killed the rest...

[b]Catalyst: We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

"The rest", obviously, means other species. It flows from the context.

Or it purposefully mis-answers the question.  Politicians do so all the time.

It already established the fact that it turns organics into Reapers.  Is it not possible that when Shepard asks "But you've killed the rest..." that he/she is in fact refering to those who do not go through the process of reapification?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Grimwick wrote...

Don't resort to incredulity when none exists.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?

The reapers could have harvested ALL the cities rather than simply killing them all. Did I ever suggest something as stupid as you did? No.

Why would they do something inefficient and that would take more time? Especially when dead bodies can still be used to create new Reapers?

Whether or not they believe in their definition is independent of the ACTUAL meaning and idea behind the word. They are wrong and there is no room for maneouvre here.. It is not preservation even if they believe it is so.

Yes, and that's why they are fought against by us. What's your point?

Then why do you believe his new methods? Why should we trust that his new methods are at all different in their intent?

1.) Beggars can't be choosers.
2.) He didn't have to explain anything to you about the Reapers, but he did.
3.) He didn't ahve to offer any solutions, but he did.
4.) He could destroyed the Crucible himself and carried on, but he didn't. Even when Destroy is the only option (and he clearly objects to it).
5.) Most importantly, his needs and your needs are aligned.

Saying that he's only in child form because the writers wrote it that way is ridiculous.

Not really. Not when they wrote plenty of unnecessary things throughout this game as it is. So why do people CHOOSE to believe that the Catalyst is not part of that? Oh right, because it fits what they CHOOSE to believe about the Catalyst itself!

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 05 juin 2012 - 06:02 .

[Lord Goose]

Is it not possible that when Shepard asks "But you've killed the rest..." that he/she is in fact refering to those who do not go through the process of reapification?

I see that you mean, but that would be outside of the context.

Catalyst: No. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the youger ones alone.

Catalyst: Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.

Shepard: But you've killed the rest...

Catalyst: We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Catalyst said that Reapers spared humanity in the previous cycle. If Shepard remark is about casualities of Prothean-Reapers war it really comes out of context, but by "the rest" he meant other species, it makes sense.

[kaotician]

Even then, he's lying. I mean, he helps the chosen few ascend. Other races, which might prove a nuisance in the future, they're just going to exterminate anyway ie the Turians, the Salarians etc, for no benefit whatsoever except that they would exist as mannequin travesties.

Modifié par kaotician, 05 juin 2012 - 06:04 .

[Lord Goose]

I mean, he helps the chosen few ascend.

Provide source to this statement, please.

It also noteworthy, that Reapers motivation changed before release of ME3.

"The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.

The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

So, before change, Reapers wanted only humanity because humans are special. But idea was dropped and replaced with the one we had now. In ME3 they don't make focus on that Reapers wanted at all before the ending. I remember none about choosen one in ME3 at all.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 05 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[Sisterofshane]

kaotician wrote...

Even then, he's lying. I mean, he helps the chosen few ascend. Other races, which might prove a nuisance in the future, they're just going to exterminate anyway ie the Turians, the Salarians etc.

I often wondered about this - we know that they harvest "advanced" civilizations, but does that mean ALL of them?  Every single race that it determines to be past the point of no return?  And what about civilizations that don't have the numbers to create Reapers?  EDI even speculates that they never succeeded in making a prothean reaper.

So the Catalyst is deluded if it thinks it is doing anyone a favor.

[frylock23]

MisterJB wrote...

Killing a great deal of them doesn't mean the race is not preserved as a Reaper in which case, the Catalyst considers the race alive.

"Alive" or "preserved"? The two words are not necessarily synonymous. My jelly may be "preserved" but that doesn't mean the fruit used to make it is still "alive."

[Joe Del Toro]

frylock23 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Killing a great deal of them doesn't mean the race is not preserved as a Reaper in which case, the Catalyst considers the race alive.

"Alive" or "preserved"? The two words are not necessarily synonymous. My jelly may be "preserved" but that doesn't mean the fruit used to make it is still "alive."

Or a better example might be a mammoth that's been frozen in ice - it's not gonna be walking around any time soon.

[Taboo]

I will say again.

He is not lying.

He is a fallacy.

He presents an appeal to probability, which is a formal fallacy.

His dumb ass hasn't figured this out in millions of years because he has been in a loop.

Too damn bad Daisy Bell

[kaotician]

Lord Goose wrote...

I mean, he helps the chosen few ascend.

Provide source to this statement, please.

It also noteworthy, that Reapers motivation changed before release of ME3.

"The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.

The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

So, before change, Reapers wanted only humanity because humans are special. But idea was dropped and replaced with the one we had now. In ME3 they don't make focus on that Reapers wanted at all before the ending. I remember none about choosen one in ME3 at all.

Sure, source is in-game dialogue, specifically ME2 where Harby dismisses the Krogans as compromised and the Turians as too primitive for ascension. Add to that the fact in ME3 that they attack with intent to destroy those races respective homeworlds, and the known fate of the Prothean/Collectors, that only a chosen few, as I assert are selected for Reaperhood ascension, with every other race of sufficient advancement either turned into mindless tools or otherwise exterminated. Thanks for asking.

Modifié par kaotician, 05 juin 2012 - 06:23 .

[Lord Goose]

Sure, source is in-game dialogue, specifically ME2 where Harby dismisses the Krogans as compromised and the Turians as too primitive for ascension

They were written with different motivation before Drew Carpshyn left. So, that creates the difference.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 05 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[kaotician]

Lord Goose wrote...

Sure, source is in-game dialogue, specifically ME2 where Harby dismisses the Krogans as compromised and the Turians as too primitive for ascension

They were written with different motivation before Drew Carpshyn left. So, that creates the difference.

Er, what difference?  What exactly are you saying was changed, and provide source please. Thanks very much. Oh, also, perhaps the most fully-realised in-game articulation of this notion is the fate of the Protheans/Collectors, of course.

Modifié par kaotician, 05 juin 2012 - 06:44 .

[Sisterofshane]

Lord Goose wrote...

Sure, source is in-game dialogue, specifically ME2 where Harby dismisses the Krogans as compromised and the Turians as too primitive for ascension

They were written with different motivation before Drew Carpshyn left. So, that creates the difference.

And does a different ending negate everything that was previously said?  No, especially when you consider that the media is still out there for players to pick up and experience.

Like the Angry One said, it is entirely possible to have rectified this with a few simple lines of dialogue, but what they left is ambiguous.  We are free to interpret the whole of the informations as we see fit.

[The Night Mammoth]

Lord Goose wrote...

Sure, source is in-game dialogue, specifically ME2 where Harby dismisses the Krogans as compromised and the Turians as too primitive for ascension

They were written with different motivation before Drew Carpshyn left. So, that creates the difference.

True, but irrelevant.

It still exists in the game, and it's backed by ME3. The Reapers aren't doing a particularly good job of preserving anything, you know, since they tried to poison Tuchanka's atmosphere and told their Geth slaves to wipe out the Quarians. 

[Lord Goose]

Er, what difference? What exactly are you saying was changed, and provide source please. Thanks very much

http://www.oxm.co.uk...before-release/

"The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

That means, that originally Reapers really didn't care about other species. They only needed humans, because consuming humans would provide them with better chances to achieve their goal. However, idea was aborted, and that created inconsistencies.

And does a different ending negate everything that was previously said?

Well, I think it was significant plot change. To the point of retcon.

[Sisterofshane]

Lord Goose wrote...

And does a different ending negate everything that was previously said?

Well, I think it was significant plot change. To the point of retcon.

If and only if the Reaper's motivations had been previously revealed within the game itself (not just some released, behind the scenes script that was never fully implemented).  Then you would be able to call it a retcon.

All of the Lore, therefore, is fair game as it comes to interpreting the ending.  You can choose to ignore it if you wish.

[Thor187]

What disgusted me the most about starkid was how he gleefully defends genocide as a justified means to an end. He says he does it to protect us from ourselves, in some way trying to juxtapose the Reapers narrative-long ominous and malevolent image with one of benevolence and nobility.

Modifié par Thor187, 05 juin 2012 - 07:13 .

[GreenDragon37]

This is the one time I will disagree with you, Angry One. I don't think the Catalyst is "lying" per-se; it might actually believe everything it says. However, it does have some insanely ****ed up logic that needs to be disputed. My Shepard went out like a damn wuss without any protest. That was unforgiveable and BioWare should be ashamed. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 juin 2012 - 07:07 .

[Lord Goose]

[quote]The Reapers aren't doing a particularly good job of preserving anything, you know, since they tried to poison Tuchanka's atmosphere and told their Geth slaves to wipe out the Quarians.
[/quote]

Well, if you want to be technical, Catalyst never said that their goal was to turn all advanced races into Reapers.

Their goal was to harvest advanced civilizations before the create synthetics, which would in turn destroy all organic life. So it was preservation of organic life as whole ("salvation through destruction"), not protection of every specie.

[quote]Catalyst: We found a way to restore order for the next cycle.

Shepard: By wiping out organic life?

Catalyst: No. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the youger ones alone.

Catalyst: Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.

Shepard: But you've killed the rest...

Catalyst: We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.[/quote]

It maybe possible, that in previous cycle all civilizations were made into Reapers.[/quote]

[quote]If and only if the Reaper's motivations had been previously revealed within the game itself (not just some released, behind the scenes script that was never fully implemented). Then you would be able to call it a retcon.[/quote]
But they were written with such intention in ME2. They changed this intention, so I guess it is significant change. Where is also strange line in Codex regarding harvest.

[quote]Even with all the Reapers' power, harvesting every sapient species in an entire galaxy can take decades or even centuries. The most time-consuming part of the process is gathering DNA from the population. To accelerate the effort, the Reapers follow a consistent procedure.Victims who cooperate, surrender, or are captured by husks are sorted into camps. It is believed the husks possess receptors that allow them to analyze a victim's DNA through sight, smell, or touch. Victims that meet their standards are herded from the camps into processor ships. Those the husks deem insufficient are either turned into husks themselves or indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. The Reapers use this last option to give their victims false hope -- many captives who would otherwise fight back become docile when they see members of their own kind obey and survive.
The processor ships reduce victims to a transportable liquid. Like in a slaughterhouse, the ships' design prevents victims from seeing or hearing what happens elsewhere so that they do not panic. The victims are ushered into locking pods, then rent apart and dissolved into paste that is flushed to storage vats.[/quote]

Modifié par Lord Goose, 05 juin 2012 - 07:22 .

[Cyneburh]

I cannot agree that the Catalyst is lying and I can't agree that he's telling the truth.

Why? Because all I have to go off is a lousy ten minute conversation. I'm not given any evidence other than word of mouth. The writers (or writer) chose to leave things up to the wonders of speculation. Now, had the Catalyst/Star Child/whatever people are calling him now bothered to spill the beans and thus give me a little insight into his cure all motivation, my Shep might have bought it.

But it doesn't. We're not given any history (other than the obvious eons-old cycle). We're not given any background on this spectral child image whatsoever other than extremely vague statements. How can I possibly empathize with something I meet in the last ten minutes of a series when I've spent the last 120 hours pitted against it?

[Lord Goose]

Why? Because all I have to go off is a lousy ten minute conversation. I'm not given any evidence other than word of mouth. The writers (or writer) chose to leave things up to the wonders of speculation. Now, had the Catalyst/Star Child/whatever people are calling him now bothered to spill the beans and thus give me a little insight into his cure all motivation, my Shep might have bought it.

What only means, that he is untrustworthy. Not that he is lying.

[Cyneburh]

Lord Goose wrote...

Why? Because all I have to go off is a lousy ten minute conversation. I'm not given any evidence other than word of mouth. The writers (or writer) chose to leave things up to the wonders of speculation. Now, had the Catalyst/Star Child/whatever people are calling him now bothered to spill the beans and thus give me a little insight into his cure all motivation, my Shep might have bought it.

What only means, that he is untrustworthy. Not that he is lying.

Yes, pretty much.  We're not given enough evidence or time to discern one way or the other.  

[Uncle Jo]

Since we're talking about the brat, his logic, etc.. I'll post some questions which were never answered in other threads. Maybe I'll have more luck here.

- If the Brat is the Catalyst, what in the hell was doing Sovereign in ME1? What was his purpose?

- Why didn't he help Sovereign?

- Why didn't the brat activate the Citadel as Relay himself? Was he taking a nap?

- On one side he's the most powerful kid of the galaxy, knows all better than us, has no reason to lie to us, has created/enslaved the Reapers, on the other side he didn't prevent some Protheans toying with his keepers nor regain control over them?

- Where is it proven/confirmed that he's an AI?

- Why did he let us dock the crucible (at this point he still wasn't changed by it)?

- Why should I trust a brand new character who pops out of nowhere and offers me two choices where I'm gonna die and the Reapers will survive? Just because he said everything will be fine?

- Why a lot of the people are totally okay with the fact that the Reapers suddendly became mindless puppets?

- Why people give more credit to a genocidal Brat than to the Geth (I'm referring to the probability of tech singularity) ?

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 05 juin 2012 - 08:59 .