473 réponses à ce sujet

[Joe Del Toro]

Jenonax wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Jenonax wrote...
Goddamn stupid ending, ruining everything ....

There, there. There's still chocolate, right?

Is there, Joe, is there?

Its organic right?  Does that mean chocolate is now half organic?  Is my Milky Bar now half toaster?  What about Wine gums?  Are there still sweets?!  What am I supposed to munch on?

It...well I..that i....th...I left something in my car.

*Walks out, closes door, drives off*

[frylock23]

Jenonax wrote...

Abreu Road wrote...


The Catalyst tells the truth. He is not lying. Proof of this is Bioware overprotecting the ending and their artistic vision and calling us retarded for not understand their awesome and brave atempt to make something different in this medium. Hudson wanted that. He wanted us to believe that, well, maybe the Reapers are kind of good guys in a certain way and that they are not evil.

That reasoning pisses me off so badly, because its true. 

We have no choice but to believe the stupid Starkid because Walters didn't bother to explain why we should.  He's like a hitman driving up in his car shooting your loved one dead through the window and driving off whilst laughing his arse off.  We can't ask why, or punch him in the face we're just left in a state of shock slowing watching our loved one bleed to death.

The Reapers are not good, Walters!  They have never been trying to save us and ascend us or whatever!  Otherwise, why the hell are they blowing us up instead of harvesting us?  And what about all those species not compatible for harvesting?  Why do they deserve to die?

Goddamn stupid ending, ruining everything ....

But again, the only reason you can provide that says that the Catalyst is being truthful has to do with metagaming. You have to look at how the storyteller has handled everything surrounding the actual story itself. There is nothing whatsoever in the dialogue or the in-game situation that can make you say definitively that the Catalyst is telling the 100% straight truth.

If the only way we, the players, can tell that the Catalyst is intended to be truthful is because the storyteller and game maker gave us no option but to play the game otherwise and all their actions to date pretty much underscore that rather than present a convincing narrative to shore up their position with the Catalyst, they opted instead to, mataphorically speaking, reach through our monitors, grab us by the nose and lead us along to force us to come to the conclusions they desired ... well, then, they failed as storytellers and in their execution.

Ergo, the Catalyst is only truthful because BioWare forces you to play like he is, not because they present him as such or convince you in any way that he is. Again, a failure of writing. 

[Jenonax]

frylock23 wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

That reasoning pisses me off so badly, because its true. 

We have no choice but to believe the stupid Starkid because Walters didn't bother to explain why we should.  He's like a hitman driving up in his car shooting your loved one dead through the window and driving off whilst laughing his arse off.  We can't ask why, or punch him in the face we're just left in a state of shock slowing watching our loved one bleed to death.

The Reapers are not good, Walters!  They have never been trying to save us and ascend us or whatever!  Otherwise, why the hell are they blowing us up instead of harvesting us?  And what about all those species not compatible for harvesting?  Why do they deserve to die?

Goddamn stupid ending, ruining everything ....

But again, the only reason you can provide that says that the Catalyst is being truthful has to do with metagaming. You have to look at how the storyteller has handled everything surrounding the actual story itself. There is nothing whatsoever in the dialogue or the in-game situation that can make you say definitively that the Catalyst is telling the 100% straight truth.

If the only way we, the players, can tell that the Catalyst is intended to be truthful is because the storyteller and game maker gave us no option but to play the game otherwise and all their actions to date pretty much underscore that rather than present a convincing narrative to shore up their position with the Catalyst, they opted instead to, mataphorically speaking, reach through our monitors, grab us by the nose and lead us along to force us to come to the conclusions they desired ... well, then, they failed as storytellers and in their execution.

Ergo, the Catalyst is only truthful because BioWare forces you to play like he is, not because they present him as such or convince you in any way that he is. Again, a failure of writing. 

True.

WALTERS!!!!

Its all just moronic wrapped up in a layer of stupid and boiled in a soup of pretentious rubbish.  Then has no evidence to back it up.

The ending is not the ending.  Its like someone taped over whatever movie they were watching before Mass Effect and just left the ending tagged on.

[LinksOcarina]

The Angry One wrote...

I've pointed this out many times and I've yet to get a satisfactory response, therefore I am making a topic about it because I crave attention.

For the purposes of this discussion, we will assume that Reaper ascension is just that, that somehow melting bodies into grey/orange goo does ascend them into the mind of a superior (in the Catalyst's view) Reaper form.

Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.
Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.

So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!

You shouldn't believe what the catalyst says. But it doesn't mean hes lying.

This basically boils down to a knights and knaves logic puzzle scenario; the intent of the reapers, vs the effect of the reapers. In other words, their intent was to collect, harvest, and ascend as much as possible. The effect we see is death and destruction, because that is what the reapers do. So really, the catalyst is not lying here, he is just telling you what the real purpose of the reapers is supposed to be.  Its reading between the lines basically that yes, that may be the intent of what the reapers are supposed to do by the Catalyst, but that is not necessarily what they actually do. So its an implication, not a lie or fact.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 06 juin 2012 - 09:26 .

[Geneaux486]

httinks2006 wrote...
Actually you're wrong Shepard is not debateable in acting out of character through three games up until the last 10 minutes it spins out of character of the Avatar we've all played throughout the series , whether you play as a Paragon or Renegade.

Shepard barely speaks at all before control is turned over to the player, doesn't act out of character, acts like a person who's on their last leg after recieving heavy injuries, who's down to their last options.  Confused, wounded, weary, and the more time goes by the more of his allies die in the fight above.  Makes sense that their questions would be brief, Shepard keeps his or her mouth shut so the player can think for themselves which choice they want to go with.  From there the choice Shepard makes depends on the player.  So no, Shepard does not act out of what little character is outside of the player's control through the three games.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 06 juin 2012 - 10:00 .

[RiouHotaru]

The Catalyst doesn't lie in the sense that it's not maliciously attempting to deceive Shepard.

It believes everything that it's saying. What it says is consistent with it's own internal logic. Therefore, it believes it's telling the truth.

The PLAYER (read, the PLAYER) knows that it's logic isn't consistent, but then we're an omniscient, third-party viewer to the events. So we're privy to things that Shepard is not.

Also, we know for the fact that the "ascension" process works as stated. They melt down individuals into the grey goo and integrates it, along with the data they gather, into a Reaper and preserve the knowledge and minds in the process.

We see it as "murder" because it involves the loss of the physical body. The Catalyst does not see it as "murder" because the part it cares about, the mind, is still intact.

[httinks2006]

Geneaux486 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...
Actually you're wrong Shepard is not debateable in acting out of character through three games up until the last 10 minutes it spins out of character of the Avatar we've all played throughout the series , whether you play as a Paragon or Renegade.

Shepard barely speaks at all before control is turned over to the player, doesn't act out of character, acts like a person who's on their last leg after recieving heavy injuries, who's down to their last options.  Confused, wounded, weary, and the more time goes by the more of his allies die in the fight above.  Makes sense that their questions would be brief, Shepard keeps his or her mouth shut so the player can think for themselves which choice they want to go with.  From there the choice Shepard makes depends on the player.  So no, Shepard does not act out of what little character is outside of the player's control through the three games.

No once again you're wrong , apparently you haven't been playing the same game , and I already knew you were going try to use the excuse that their heavily wounded, weary and the toll of war has caught up to them . Your arguments are very predictable to your defense of the nonsense that what was presented to the player in endgame.
Bioware throughout the series have given the players choices based on how we played our characters , and the responses have been pretty nail on the head until this horrid ending .There is no way our characters would have accepted what was spooned fed to use by vent boy . Both paragon and renegade Shepards would never have followed what was clearily moronic ,illogical reasoning and  vent boys solutions to the Reapers  
. This is based on three games of how this avatar responded to every situation thrown up agaisnt them and the outcomes of their decisons . That is called being out of character .

[LinksOcarina]

httinks2006 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...
Actually you're wrong Shepard is not debateable in acting out of character through three games up until the last 10 minutes it spins out of character of the Avatar we've all played throughout the series , whether you play as a Paragon or Renegade.

Shepard barely speaks at all before control is turned over to the player, doesn't act out of character, acts like a person who's on their last leg after recieving heavy injuries, who's down to their last options.  Confused, wounded, weary, and the more time goes by the more of his allies die in the fight above.  Makes sense that their questions would be brief, Shepard keeps his or her mouth shut so the player can think for themselves which choice they want to go with.  From there the choice Shepard makes depends on the player.  So no, Shepard does not act out of what little character is outside of the player's control through the three games.

No once again you're wrong , apparently you haven't been playing the same game , and I already knew you were going try to use the excuse that their heavily wounded, weary and the toll of war has caught up to them . Your arguments are very predictable to your defense of the nonsense that what was presented to the player in endgame.
Bioware throughout the series have given the players choices based on how we played our characters , and the responses have been pretty nail on the head until this horrid ending .There is no way our characters would have accepted what was spooned fed to use by vent boy . Both paragon and renegade Shepards would never have followed what was clearily moronic ,illogical reasoning and  vent boys solutions to the Reapers  
. This is based on three games of how this avatar responded to every situation thrown up agaisnt them and the outcomes of their decisons . That is called being out of character .

Except that he was never really your character to begin with. You can shape the story around Shepard, shape responses and actions, and use that to have a percpetion of the world and make decisions. But in the end, Shepard always did things that would agree or disagree with the player, because the storyline always trumped the role playing.

I hate to say it, but Shepard is a strange style of character because he is supposed to be a more "power fantasy" archetype based on customization, but follows a rather linear storypath to a linear conclusion. It is a Light RPG game with a Western RPG mentality, and these are hard to pull off because it is two contrasting styles of RPGs.

So you are wrong, but also sort of right, at the same time. Shepard may not do that in your mind because you wouldn't do that in the context of how Shepard normally acts, but in the context of the story he may do that based off the scenario. So in the end, like every game BioWare has made so far, the story trumps the player in the climax. 

This is not a bad thing, mind you, like I said, BioWare had mae a career doing this, and we have seen a lot of RPGs follow in this wake; Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur, and even classic games like Planescape Torment or . Shadowrun have done it too. But it is something people fail to recognize sometimes, which makes your argument fairly redundant. 

[Geneaux486]

httinks2006 wrote...
No once again you're wrong , apparently you haven't been playing the same game , and I already knew you were going try to use the excuse that their heavily wounded, weary and the toll of war has caught up to them . Your arguments are very predictable to your defense of the nonsense that what was presented to the player in endgame.

What I've said regarding Shepard's wounds and his reaction to them is true, and based on what we're presented with in the game.  He's wounded, he's limping, he's talking like he's dazed, his allies are still fighting and dying above him and on Earth, he's at the end of his rope, all of it is noticeable and obvious.  The same can not be said for your counter-argument, which attempts to dismiss my position (which, again, is backed by what we're shown in the game itself) solely on the grounds that it's "predictable".     

Bioware throughout the series have given the players choices based on how we played our characters , and the responses have been pretty nail on the head until this horrid ending.

The ending was the same as the rest of the series in regards to the choices.

There is no way our characters would have accepted what was spooned fed to use by vent boy . Both paragon and renegade Shepards would never have followed what was clearily moronic ,illogical reasoning and  vent boys solutions to the Reapers

 

Shepard never indicates an acceptance of anything the Catalyst tells him or her.  Shepard simply hears the thing out, then control is handed over to the player to make the final choice.  Whether or not you accept anything the Catalyst says is up to you, the player, it is not determined by the in-game Shepard.  It is your interpretation, period, and as such it's completely subjective.  This in turn makes the assertion that Shepard somehow acts out of character false.
 

This is based on three games of how this avatar responded to every situation thrown up agaisnt them and the outcomes of their decisons . That is called being out of character .

Again, Shepard is not out of character at the end, partially because his character is largely left up to player choice, and also because he or she exhibits a minimal reaction to the Catalyst, leaving the player to be the one who does the reacting.  My point still stands.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 05:47 .

[o Ventus]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst doesn't lie in the sense that it's not maliciously attempting to deceive Shepard.

It believes everything that it's saying. What it says is consistent with it's own internal logic. Therefore, it believes it's telling the truth.

The PLAYER (read, the PLAYER) knows that it's logic isn't consistent, but then we're an omniscient, third-party viewer to the events. So we're privy to things that Shepard is not.

Also, we know for the fact that the "ascension" process works as stated. They melt down individuals into the grey goo and integrates it, along with the data they gather, into a Reaper and preserve the knowledge and minds in the process.

We see it as "murder" because it involves the loss of the physical body. The Catalyst does not see it as "murder" because the part it cares about, the mind, is still intact.

There's no evidence whatsoever that the mind is preserved, only the biomass.

[Geneaux486]

o Ventus wrote...
There's no evidence whatsoever that the mind is preserved, only the biomass.

Legion confirms that the organic minds are there and functioning.  Aware from previous discussion that you reject Legion's testimony as evidence, but there is no reason for doing so beyond the fact that it hurts your argument, therefore I do not.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 05:51 .

[o Ventus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
There's no evidence whatsoever that the mind is preserved, only the biomass.

Legion confirms that the organic minds are there and functioning.  Aware from previous discussion that you reject Legion's testimony as evidence, but there is no reason for doing so beyond the fact that it hurts your argument, therefore I do not.

Even if Legion's sole word can be taken seriously, he doesn't say they're made of working minds. Or otherwise functioning minds.

[Geneaux486]

o Ventus wrote...
Even if Legion's sole word can be taken seriously, he doesn't say they're made of working minds. Or otherwise functioning minds.

Actually he does say that they're working and functioning organic minds.  Legion spoke to the Reaper, made up of billions of organic minds, "conjoined and uploaded in immortal machine bodies".  Started out as a hypothesis of the Geth, confirmed when Legion saw an infant Reaper first hand.  This is the conciousness that the Geth spoke to in the form of Nazara.  Additionally, something that occurred to me only recently in regards to the preservation of the minds of the species being processed into a Reaper:  The Thorian, from simply integrating dead Protheans into its being, was able to obtain the very essence of being a Prothean, and pass it on to others, proving that such a thing is possible within the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[o Ventus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Even if Legion's sole word can be taken seriously, he doesn't say they're made of working minds. Or otherwise functioning minds.

Legion spoke to the Reaper, made up of billions of organic minds.  This implies that they were functioning, or else why would they be worth mentioning at all?  Additionally, something that occurred to me only recently in regards to the preservation of the minds of the species being processed into a Reaper:  The Thorian, from simply integrating dead Protheans into its being, was able to obtain the very essence of being a Prothean, and pass it on to others, proving that such a thing is possible within the Mass Effect universe.

That doesn't imply a single goddamned thing. He tells them that they're made up of organics... because they're made of organics. You sure he wasn't just stating a fact?

What in the hell are you talking about? The thorian "obtained the very essence of a prothean"? Do you have any idea of what the Cipher is? It's just an extensive network of base prothean knowledge. It isn't as if Shepard became part prothean when he got the Cipher, or took on some of the dead prothean's personality traits. Shepard doesn't remember when Steve the prothean had an affair with his secretary from work.

Never mind that the thorian also studied LIVE protheans as well as dead ones, and your mention of the thorian is completely irrelevant.

[o Ventus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Legion spoke to the Reaper, made up of billions of organic minds, "conjoined and uploaded in immortal machine bodies".

I don't know how many times I need to mention this, but gestalt intelligences don't say "I" and "me" in reference to themselves as a collective.

[Geneaux486]

o Ventus wrote...
That doesn't imply a single goddamned thing. He tells them that they're made up of organics... because they're made of organics. You sure he wasn't just stating a fact?

He specifically said that the minds of the Reaper that the Geth communicated with were organic minds.

What in the hell are you talking about? The thorian "obtained the very essence of a prothean"?

The essence of being a Prothean.  That is a quote directly from the first game, describing the Cipher, not my own choice of wording.  
 

and your mention of the thorian is completely irrelevant.

No it isn't, it's proof that an entity in the Mass Effect universe is capable of incorporating the genetic material of a race and gaining the accumulated knowlege thereof, preserving it.  It is relevant as far as the reason I mentioned it, that such a process has precedent in the fictional universe, goes. 

I don't know how many times I need to mention this, but gestalt intelligences don't say "I" and "me" in reference to themselves as a collective.

This is an arbitrary distinction of yours that has no basis within the lore itself.  The Reapers are well known to each contain billions of individual minds, yet Harbinger occasionally refers to itself s "I" and "we", so clearly your assertion is incorrect.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[o Ventus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
That doesn't imply a single goddamned thing. He tells them that they're made up of organics... because they're made of organics. You sure he wasn't just stating a fact?

He specifically said that the minds of the Reaper that the Geth communicated with were organic minds.

What in the hell are you talking about? The thorian "obtained the very essence of a prothean"?

The essence of being a Prothean.  That is a quote directly from the first game, not my own choice of wording.
 

and your mention of the thorian is completely irrelevant.

No it isn't, it's proof that an entity in the Mass Effect universe is capable of incorporating the genetic material of a race and gaining the accumulated knowlege thereof, preserving it.  It is relevant as far as the reason I mentioned it, that such a process has precedent in the fictional universe, goes. 

I don't know how many times I need to mention this, but gestalt intelligences don't say "I" and "me" in reference to themselves as a collective.

This is an arbitrary distinction of yours that has no backing within the lore itself.

1. Again, because that's what they're made of. You aren't going to buy a dog from a cat shelter. It doesn't, in any way, imply that the "minds" hold any form of sentience or sapience.

2. Ignoring the ambiguity of the thorian conversation... You're certain the thorian didn't just determine how protheans operated from posthumous examination? Y'know, we sort of do that now with fossils and skeletons.

3. When does the thorian ever tell you it takes in the genetic material of... anything? I just watched that whole conversation between Shepard and Shiala (pre and post battle) and all she says is that the thorian studied them and consumed them, with "consume" having more than 1 meaning.

[o Ventus]

This is an arbitrary distinction of yours that has no basis within the lore itself.  The Reapers are well known to each contain billions of individual minds, yet Harbinger occasionally refers to itself s "I" and "we", so clearly your assertion is incorrect.

The Reapers are the only "gestalt" beings in this entire franchise that refer to themselves in the first person. Legion doesn't. The mainstream geth don't. The geth you play as in the multiplayer don't. The geth Prime on Rannoch doesn't. The geth inside the consensus don't.

1 outlier doesn't make my claim arbitrary.

[Geneaux486]

1. Again, because that's what they're made of. You aren't going to buy a dog from a cat shelter. It doesn't, in any way, imply that the "minds" hold any form of sentience or sapience.

No, Legion specifically states that the minds the Geth communicated with were organic.  The minds that corrupted the heretics were organic.  This doesn't simply imply that the organic minds are sentient, it confirms it.  Legion's description is neither ambiguous nor vague.

2. Ignoring the ambiguity of the thorian conversation... You're certain the thorian didn't just determine how protheans operated from posthumous examination? Y'know, we sort of do that now with fossils and skeletons.

Game states otherwise.

3. When does the thorian ever tell you it takes in the genetic material of... anything? I just watched that whole conversation between Shepard and Shiala (pre and post battle) and all she says is that the thorian studied them and consumed them, with "consume" having more than 1 meaning.

Consume means consume.  The Thorian consumed the Protheans, and thus obtained the Cipher, the essence of being a Prothean, and could then pass it on to others.  This is all that matters as far as the point I'm trying to make goes, that such a thing is possible.  Proven possible in the first game, confirmed to be what the Reapers do in the second game.

The Reapers are the only "gestalt" beings in this entire franchise that refer to themselves in the first person. Legion doesn't. The mainstream geth don't. The geth you play as in the multiplayer don't. The geth Prime on Rannoch doesn't. The geth inside the consensus don't.

1 outlier doesn't make my claim arbitrary.

The fact that your claim is arbitrary is what makes your claim arbitrary.  What the Geth do and do not do is irrelevant to the Reapers.  Geth are synthetic minds, Reapers are not.  The fact is that the Reapers are confirmed to be of billions of minds each, yet one still refers to itself both as "I" and "we".  This disproves your claim that gestalt beings in the Mass Effect universe never refer to themselves in this manner.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 06:43 .

[o Ventus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

1. Again, because that's what they're made of. You aren't going to buy a dog from a cat shelter. It doesn't, in any way, imply that the "minds" hold any form of sentience or sapience.

No, Legion specifically states that the minds the Geth communicated with were organic.  The minds that corrupted the heretics were organic.  This doesn't simply imply that the organic minds are sentient, it confirms it.  Legion's description is neither ambiguous nor vague.

2. Ignoring the ambiguity of the thorian conversation... You're certain the thorian didn't just determine how protheans operated from posthumous examination? Y'know, we sort of do that now with fossils and skeletons.

Game states otherwise.

3. When does the thorian ever tell you it takes in the genetic material of... anything? I just watched that whole conversation between Shepard and Shiala (pre and post battle) and all she says is that the thorian studied them and consumed them, with "consume" having more than 1 meaning.

Consume means consume.  The Thorian consumed the Protheans, and thus obtained the Cipher, the essence of being a Prothean, and could then pass it on to others.  This is all that matters as far as the point I'm trying to make goes, that such a thing is possible.  Proven possible in the first game, confirmed to be what the Reapers do in the second game.

The Reapers are the only "gestalt" beings in this entire franchise that refer to themselves in the first person. Legion doesn't. The mainstream geth don't. The geth you play as in the multiplayer don't. The geth Prime on Rannoch doesn't. The geth inside the consensus don't.

1 outlier doesn't make my claim arbitrary.

The fact that your claim is arbitrary is what makes your claim arbitrary.  What the Geth do and do not do is irrelevant to the Reapers.  Geth are synthetic minds, Reapers are not.  The fact is that the Reapers are confirmed to be of billions of minds each, yet one still refers to itself both as "I" and "we".  This disproves your claim that gestalt beings in the Mass Effect universe never refer to themselves in this manner.

1. No, it doesn't. Do you know the meaning of the word "confirm"?

2. Again, no it doesn't. It studied live protheans as well as dead ones. It never says how[/i] is studied the dead ones, only that it consumed them. I don't doubt that it managed to dig a little information from dead protheans, but since it never says [b]how, it isn't a stretch to think it employed methods similar to how we do it in real life.

3. It gained the knowledge of the prothean culture. It doesn't have any personal memories or prothean mannerisms, or they would have all gone to Shepard's brain. Shiala also never uses the word "essence". Again, we can do this in real life through fossil study. Just because we know how the velociraptor hunted doesn't make us all inherently half dinosaur.

4. Oh, you were trolling me. That's a good one. 10/10.

[Geneaux486]

1. No, it doesn't. Do you know the meaning of the word "confirm"?

Do you?

http://www.youtube.c...tAHNQT3-w#t=62s

The Geth made contact with the minds of Nazara, realizing that the billions of minds therein were different from the Geth's, hypothesizing that the reason behind this was that they were organic minds. Legion was able to confirm this hypothesis when he witnessed the Human-reaper first hand. Unless you think Legion is lying (in which case burden of proof is on you) then yes, it is confirmed. As I've said, there is no reason to doubt what Legion says beyond the fact that it hurts your argument, and even if there were, your initial statement that there is "no evidence" is still wrong.

2. Again, no it doesn't. It studied live protheans as well as dead ones. It never says how[/i] is studied the dead ones, only that it consumed them. I don't doubt that it managed to dig a little information from dead protheans, but since it never says [b]how, it isn't a stretch to think it employed methods similar to how we do it in real life.

Except we know that the Thorian consumed them, as it consumes Shia'la.

3. It gained the knowledge of the prothean culture. It doesn't have any personal memories or prothean mannerisms, or they would have all gone to Shepard's brain. Shiala also never uses the word "essence". Again, we can do this in real life through fossil study. Just because we know how the velociraptor hunted doesn't make us all inherently half dinosaur.

Liara used the word "essence" and she experienced it first hand when helping Shepard to sort it out. The fact is that the Thorian consumed Protheans, and as such gained the Cipher, the essence of their race, which it was capable of sharing with other beings. This is fact, outright stated and observed in the game.  That is all that matters as far as the point I was trying to make in bringing it up goes.

4. Oh, you were trolling me. That's a good one. 10/10.

So you assume that anyone who rejects your arbitrary rules that are not established in (and are directly contradicted by) the lore is trolling?

Modifié par Geneaux486, 07 juin 2012 - 07:34 .

[wh00ley 06]

C'mon guys, the fact that the Catalyst took the form of a child that it incinerated should be proof enough.

[httinks2006]

Geneaux486 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...
No once again you're wrong , apparently you haven't been playing the same game , and I already knew you were going try to use the excuse that their heavily wounded, weary and the toll of war has caught up to them . Your arguments are very predictable to your defense of the nonsense that what was presented to the player in endgame.

What I've said regarding Shepard's wounds and his reaction to them is true, and based on what we're presented with in the game.  He's wounded, he's limping, he's talking like he's dazed, his allies are still fighting and dying above him and on Earth, he's at the end of his rope, all of it is noticeable and obvious.  The same can not be said for your counter-argument, which attempts to dismiss my position (which, again, is backed by what we're shown in the game itself) solely on the grounds that it's "predictable".     

Bioware throughout the series have given the players choices based on how we played our characters , and the responses have been pretty nail on the head until this horrid ending.

The ending was the same as the rest of the series in regards to the choices.
 

Not even close . that statement right there's shows you have a lack of understanding why so many people had issues with the ending , how far it was from the established  lore and science of mass effect universe created
so know I understand why you can't comprehend it .

There is no way our characters would have accepted what was spooned fed to use by vent boy . Both paragon and renegade Shepards would never have followed what was clearily moronic ,illogical reasoning and  vent boys solutions to the Reapers

 

Shepard never indicates an acceptance of anything the Catalyst tells him or her.  Shepard simply hears the thing out, then control is handed over to the player to make the final choice.  Whether or not you accept anything the Catalyst says is up to you, the player, it is not determined by the in-game Shepard.  It is your interpretation, period, and as such it's completely subjective.  This in turn makes the assertion that Shepard somehow acts out of character false.
 


So when you take a stroll to your two  (ems) three choices, you're not accepting what was spoon fed to you .
No arguement no refusal oh thats right I'm wounded battle weary delusional but thats not out of character Im just doing what I'm told by mass murdering vent boy because he's so truthworthy and not the leader of the enemy we've been trying to stop for the past three games now .. gotcha .

This is based on three games of how this avatar responded to every situation thrown up agaisnt them and the outcomes of their decisons . That is called being out of character .

Again, Shepard is not out of character at the end, partially because his character is largely left up to player choice, and also because he or she exhibits a minimal reaction to the Catalyst, leaving the player to be the one who does the reacting.  My point still stands.

[httinks2006]

LinksOcarina wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...
Actually you're wrong Shepard is not debateable in acting out of character through three games up until the last 10 minutes it spins out of character of the Avatar we've all played throughout the series , whether you play as a Paragon or Renegade.

Shepard barely speaks at all before control is turned over to the player, doesn't act out of character, acts like a person who's on their last leg after recieving heavy injuries, who's down to their last options.  Confused, wounded, weary, and the more time goes by the more of his allies die in the fight above.  Makes sense that their questions would be brief, Shepard keeps his or her mouth shut so the player can think for themselves which choice they want to go with.  From there the choice Shepard makes depends on the player.  So no, Shepard does not act out of what little character is outside of the player's control through the three games.

No once again you're wrong , apparently you haven't been playing the same game , and I already knew you were going try to use the excuse that their heavily wounded, weary and the toll of war has caught up to them . Your arguments are very predictable to your defense of the nonsense that what was presented to the player in endgame.
Bioware throughout the series have given the players choices based on how we played our characters , and the responses have been pretty nail on the head until this horrid ending .There is no way our characters would have accepted what was spooned fed to use by vent boy . Both paragon and renegade Shepards would never have followed what was clearily moronic ,illogical reasoning and  vent boys solutions to the Reapers  
. This is based on three games of how this avatar responded to every situation thrown up agaisnt them and the outcomes of their decisons . That is called being out of character .

Except that he was never really your character to begin with. You can shape the story around Shepard, shape responses and actions, and use that to have a percpetion of the world and make decisions. But in the end, Shepard always did things that would agree or disagree with the player, because the storyline always trumped the role playing.

I hate to say it, but Shepard is a strange style of character because he is supposed to be a more "power fantasy" archetype based on customization, but follows a rather linear storypath to a linear conclusion. It is a Light RPG game with a Western RPG mentality, and these are hard to pull off because it is two contrasting styles of RPGs.

So you are wrong, but also sort of right, at the same time. Shepard may not do that in your mind because you wouldn't do that in the context of how Shepard normally acts, but in the context of the story he may do that based off the scenario. So in the end, like every game BioWare has made so far, the story trumps the player in the climax. 

This is not a bad thing, mind you, like I said, BioWare had mae a career doing this, and we have seen a lot of RPGs follow in this wake; Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur, and even classic games like Planescape Torment or . Shadowrun have done it too. But it is something people fail to recognize sometimes, which makes your argument fairly redundant. 

If Gamers were  playing Batman they understand that their playing levels within the story and their not Batman  , Mass Effect  was advertised to gamers as our character .