473 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

Though I do like his insistence that everyone killed was just preserved, my favourite bit is still "There will be peace?" *Awkward pause* "The cycle will end" Way to dodge a simple question there!

[dmay7]

ReaperBieber the Starbinger basically makes Control and Synthesis seem like the 'good' options, and makes Destroy the 'bad' ending, because he includes the ever dreadful 'but'. He says 'You will destroy us, BUT you will die'. With synthesis, he uses 'why not', indicating he is trying to defend this particular choice as good, because both he and the Reapers will continue to live. Control he is a bit more nuetral, because he knows he is out of a job, but his Reapers will live.

In the escene, ReaperBieber the Starbinger is essentially the anti-Shepard.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

Then why does it deny killing us? It specifically says it isn't.
It doesn't even resort to the standard "Some deaths are necesarry for progress".

The exact line is:

Shepard: "But you killed the rest."

Catalyst: "We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

It probrably equals death with extinction. Killing millions or billions is not murder to it so long as the essence of the race is preserved as a Reaper, it is "trimming the edges".

[Vigilant111]

@MisterJB: how would u like it if the reapers deem u as unworthy of ascension?

Wait, that makes no difference, u r gonna be used anyway

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

It probrably equals death with extinction. Killing millions or billions is not murder to it so long as the essence of the race is preserved as a Reaper, it is "trimming the edges".

And yet it knows the personal impact of an individual death enough to take the form of Vent Boy.
You can't have it both ways. It continually dodges the issue of who it kills and who it preserves (oh and let's not forget the Quarians, who it planned to exterminate entirely).

If it truly thought this way, then it should have no issues with stating that many organics must perish for the greater good. Instead it chooses to be dishonest about it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 02:13 .

[MisterJB]

Vigilant111 wrote...

@MisterJB: how would u like it if the reapers deem u as unworthy of ascension?

Wait, that makes no difference, u r gonna be used anyway

Why do you assume that just because I am capable of looking at things from the Catalyst's perspective, that means I agree with it?

[Vigilant111]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

Then why does it deny killing us? It specifically says it isn't.
It doesn't even resort to the standard "Some deaths are necesarry for progress".

The exact line is:

Shepard: "But you killed the rest."

Catalyst: "We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

It probrably equals death with extinction. Killing millions or billions is not murder to it so long as the essence of the race is preserved as a Reaper, it is "trimming the edges".

Essense of race is not preserved just by ascending a couple of individuals... for a culture to exist require an entire group or a community exist

[PoisonMushroom]

The Angry One wrote...

Personally I'm not pointing this out as evidence of anything other than bad writing.
The narrative clearly wants us to trust the Catalyst, and forces us to by giving us no other options. Even destroy is contingent on trusting what the Catalyst says to be true.

This is why the narrative is broken, because at the very least if the Catalyst was brutally honest about it's views and goals that would be something (as in "yes, we kill a significant amount of organics because...") but instead it resorts to false platitudes and roundabout justifications just as any villain would do.

In that case, I agree with you completely.

[The Angry One]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Essense of race is not preserved just by ascending a couple of individuals... for a culture to exist require an entire group or a community exist

Especially in the case of Earth, with it's many unique cultures and nations.
Perhaps even more so for the Asari, where Thessia has individual city-states each potentially with their own individual culture.
Then there are all the various colonies out there each with an "essence" of their own.

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

hmmm... Of course, like Shepard says, the defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves.  That each individual has value.  So, not only is it that making a race into a Reaper doesn't actually preserve that species at all but the process of making the Reaper involves horrific crimes for which the Catalyst must be held to account.

That the Catalyst didn't understand these things.  That it should be so fundamentally ignorant and/or dismissive of the very thing it claimed to be trying to preserve is far and away one of the strongest argument against the Catalyst itself and it's philosophy as a whole.

Modifié par General User, 05 juin 2012 - 02:16 .

[Vigilant111]

MisterJB wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

@MisterJB: how would u like it if the reapers deem u as unworthy of ascension?

Wait, that makes no difference, u r gonna be used anyway

Why do you assume that just because I am capable of looking at things from the Catalyst's perspective, that means I agree with it?

Because it is all too easy to look at things from Catalyst point of view, we all want to be better than other people, and it is dangerous to see it through the reapers' eyes since they are the most powerful race in the galaxy, it is tempting, and TIM fell for it

[Vigilant111]

The Angry One wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Essense of race is not preserved just by ascending a couple of individuals... for a culture to exist require an entire group or a community exist

Especially in the case of Earth, with it's many unique cultures and nations.
Perhaps even more so for the Asari, where Thessia has individual city-states each potentially with their own individual culture.
Then there are all the various colonies out there each with an "essence" of their own.

Exactly, what about buildings and relics? u can't say u preserved them cos u took a couple of pictures, some stuff carry sentimental value

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
And yet it knows the personal impact of an individual death enough to take the form of Vent Boy.

The Child represents all of the people Shepard couldn't save so it's not an individual death. In fact, Shepard could be doing it unconsciously just like what happens during the Geth Consensus mission. Giving it form through his/her memories.

You can't have it both ways. It continually dodges the issue of who it kills and who it preserves (oh and let's not forget the Quarians, who it planned to exterminate entirely).

We don't know that. We saw it was using the geth to destroy the military might of the quarians but it did the same to humanity who was going to Ascend so, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be harvested later.
Or maybe the quarian species is simply unsuitable for Ascension in its entirety.

If it truly thought this way, then it should have no issues with stating that many organics must perish for the greater good. Instead it chooses to be dishonest about it.

I don't think it is being dishonest, it simply has a different (faulty?) way of looking at things.

[antares_sublight]

"storing the old life in reaper form" until you blew them up, you monster!

I think the problem, and BioWare's probable answer is that the Catalyst is only concerned with "organics in abstract, in general". The whole "solution" is to kill billions of individual organics so that you (somehow) save organics "in general". It's saving the presence of organic life.

This is an awful, really terrible basis for an entire series, but that seems to be what BioWare was intending. Therefore, by not agreeing that it 'killed the rest', the Catalyst is speaking very abstractly (and stupidly). It also never says that it doesn't kill, it justifies it instead of denying it.

But yes, the use of the boy that it just recently caused the death of while saying it's saving organics and while ships are blowing up in the background is insanely ridiculous. And the idea that organics are "preserved/ascended" into reapers that are then sent into battle and destroyed, lost forever is also insanely stupid plot material.

[The Angry One]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Exactly, what about buildings and relics? u can't say u preserved them cos u took a couple of pictures, some stuff carry sentimental value

Remember Mordin's speech in ME2? No culture, no music, no development. No soul, replaced by tech.
Too bad Mordin died, he should've come along to beat down the Catalyst's logic in one sentence.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Exactly, what about buildings and relics? u can't say u preserved them cos u took a couple of pictures, some stuff carry sentimental value

Remember Mordin's speech in ME2? No culture, no music, no development. No soul, replaced by tech.
Too bad Mordin died, he should've come along to beat down the Catalyst's logic in one sentence.

The Catalyst also believes synthetics will, inevitably, cause the omnicide of organic life. Thus, it could simply be making the best out of an impossible situation. Preservation as a Reaper is preferable to complete extinction.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The Child represents all of the people Shepard couldn't save so it's not an individual death. In fact, Shepard could be doing it unconsciously just like what happens during the Geth Consensus mission. Giving it form through his/her memories.

Speculation. Also, the Catalyst would be aware of this anyway, just as Legion is.
It should also give Shepard more of a reason to argue this point.

YWe don't know that. We saw it was using the geth to destroy the military might of the quarians but it did the same to humanity who was going to Ascend so, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be harvested later.

The Reapers use the Geth to kill all Quarians. If the civilian captains try to flee because Koris is killed, they get shot down. There's no attempt made to preserve any of them.

Or maybe the quarian species is simply unsuitable for Ascension in its entirety.

Then it is lying, if some species are truly unsuitable.

I don't think it is being dishonest, it simply has a different (faulty?) way of looking at things.

It's dishonest because it's lying about it's own methodology. If it has a different way of looking at things then it would simply say so. Instead it covers up and sugar-coats the fact that it outright kills beings.

[Vigilant111]

The Angry One wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Exactly, what about buildings and relics? u can't say u preserved them cos u took a couple of pictures, some stuff carry sentimental value

Remember Mordin's speech in ME2? No culture, no music, no development. No soul, replaced by tech.
Too bad Mordin died, he should've come along to beat down the Catalyst's logic in one sentence.

Preserve Mordin's memory like Vendetta Prothean:wizard:

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The Catalyst also believes synthetics will, inevitably, cause the omnicide of organic life. Thus, it could simply be making the best out of an impossible situation. Preservation as a Reaper is preferable to complete extinction.

You could achieve the same effect by placing a potted plant in stasis inside every Reaper.
The point is it goes beyond merely stating that it is preserving organic life as a whole and claims that the civilisations themselves are "preserved in Reaper form".

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[xbb1024]

My impression of the catalyst wasnt so much that it was lying, but not understanding the fallacy of its own logic.

[JShepppp]

I thought Shep accused the Catalyst of wiping out organic life. That was what the Catalyst rejected. I don't think the Catalyst ever denied it and/or the Reapers killed people. But I also thought that irregardless, it viewed its goal as more important than any individual species' or cycle's survival.

[The Angry One]

JShepppp wrote...

I thought Shep accused the Catalyst of wiping out organic life. That was what the Catalyst rejected. I don't think the Catalyst ever denied it and/or the Reapers killed people. But I also thought that irregardless, it viewed its goal as more important than any individual species' or cycle's survival.

Shepard says that, the Catalyst claims that no, it preserves life while leaving the younger races alone.
Shepard then says that the Catalyst killed the rest, to which the Catalyst responds that they're "helped" to "ascend".

It entirely dodges the issue of killing and goes straight to it's sugar-coated propaganda.

[Wulfram]

Having a horrifically warped perspective isn't the same as lying

[Vigilant111]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Exactly, what about buildings and relics? u can't say u preserved them cos u took a couple of pictures, some stuff carry sentimental value

Remember Mordin's speech in ME2? No culture, no music, no development. No soul, replaced by tech.
Too bad Mordin died, he should've come along to beat down the Catalyst's logic in one sentence.

The Catalyst also believes synthetics will, inevitably, cause the omnicide of organic life. Thus, it could simply be making the best out of an impossible situation. Preservation as a Reaper is preferable to complete extinction.

endless possibilities is equalled to endless impossibilities

If organics want to finish themselves off, so be it... and I don't think people in geneal would give up their lives and society that easily, hope keeps them alive

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
The Reapers use the Geth to kill all Quarians. If the civilian captains try to flee because Koris is killed, they get shot down. There's no attempt made to preserve any of them.

Even if that happens, the quarian race survives and can, possibly, still be preserved.

It's dishonest because it's lying about it's own methodology. If it has a different way of looking at things then it would simply say so. Instead it covers up and sugar-coats the fact that it outright kills beings.

Shepard never makes the distinction between individual and species, murder and extinction. "By wiping out organic life...But you killed the rest."