473 réponses à ce sujet

[Vigilant111]

Wulfram wrote...

Having a horrifically warped perspective isn't the same as lying

As I have pointed out before, even if the Catalyst is not lying, it is CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Even if that happens, the quarian race survives and can, possibly, still be preserved.

Their entire race save for a few scouts is on that flotilla.

Shepard never makes the distinction between individual and species, murder and extinction. "By wiping out organic life...But you killed the rest."

Yes, and the Catalyst never acknowledges it kills anyone. It claims to ascend all.

[JEPrDEE]

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

[Wulfram]

Vigilant111 wrote...

As I have pointed out before, even if the Catalyst is not lying, it is CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING

Has anyone claimed it is?  I'm not sure your point here.

[Vigilant111]

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

It doesn't, it doesn't know about the future cos it does not live in it

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
Their entire race save for a few scouts is on that flotilla.

True but destroying the civillian ships that attempt to flee doesn't cause their extinction.

Yes, and the Catalyst never acknowledges it kills anyone. It claims to ascend all.

No, it doesn't. "We helped them ascend to make way..."
The "them" is likely referring to the previously spacefaring species. The Catalyst claims it helps the races ascend, which it does, but that doesn't equal "We preserve every single organic being in the galaxy."

[JShepppp]

The Angry One wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I thought Shep accused the Catalyst of wiping out organic life. That was what the Catalyst rejected. I don't think the Catalyst ever denied it and/or the Reapers killed people. But I also thought that irregardless, it viewed its goal as more important than any individual species' or cycle's survival.

Shepard says that, the Catalyst claims that no, it preserves life while leaving the younger races alone.
Shepard then says that the Catalyst killed the rest, to which the Catalyst responds that they're "helped" to "ascend".

It entirely dodges the issue of killing and goes straight to it's sugar-coated propaganda.

Dodging being the key word. It doesn't lie or bend the truth.

But I think the Catalyst is incapable of emotion. If it thought it was pertinent to tell Shep that the Reapers exterminated races that didn't fit with their goals (defiant, not genetically able, etc.), it would've, but Shep already knows that. 

Basically, to us, it's probably dodging, but I think from the Catalyst's point of view it's not important so it just doesn't mention it. What's more important for it is explaining the Reapers' goals (harvesting), not their methods (killing non-harvested organics).

[MisterJB]

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

The people who created the Catalyst could have seen synthetics extinguish a thousand races, make millions of garden worlds incapable of bearing life.
It might be an assumption to assume they are going to continue doing this until there is no organic life left but it would be a very, very safe assumption.

[Malchat]

Let's say for a moment I accept the Catalyst premise and find his goal of preserving organic life in Reaper form a reasonable and proportionate solution to his stated problem...

...then I still have to rationalize the incomprehensibly extensive and enduring cruelty of the Reaper´s methods.

They don't just surgically and methodically reap the Galaxy, in an efficient and detached manner... no, they violate, mutilate and twist organic life into ugly, barbaric and disposable new forms to be thrown against the desperate survivors.

They instigate strife and bitter warefare among races, creating the horror of the Rachni war or the despair of the Geth invasion.

They invade the very minds and souls of people, perverting them to betray and murder their former friends and allies.

Their sparse communications are deliberately taunting, omnious and calculated to cause despair.

The Reapers are god-machines with no other purpose than to perpuate cruelty on an unimaginable scale, for eternity.

The Catalyst claims he masterminded all of this.

And somehow Commander Shepard, and by extension the player, is supposed to listen to this thing and think 'Hmm... you know what, he has a point. I better follow his suggestions.'

Even my most Renegade Shepard would not go along with this. As a player, I cannot twist my personal ethics to even consider this monster's position as valid.

Bioware representatives who think that going along with (or, equally bad, being mind-controlled by) the Catalyst is somehow heroic and appropriate after subjecting the player to three games of Reaper horror... well, I'll be over here deriding your artistic choices.

Modifié par Malchat, 05 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[Vigilant111]

Wulfram wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

As I have pointed out before, even if the Catalyst is not lying, it is CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING

Has anyone claimed it is?  I'm not sure your point here.

Well if it is right about everything, u will choose synthesis, because it is implied to be the best option to end organic/synthetic conflicts

If it is right about everything then "created blah blah creators" also holds true and chaos will come back and organics are f**ked

If it is right about everything then Shepard CAN control the reapers

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

True but destroying the civillian ships that attempt to flee doesn't cause their extinction.

It will eventually when the Geth gain the upper hand. The point is they don't even attempt to capture or neutralise these ships and people, they kill every single one.
Because they're under the direct control of a Reaper, that Reaper is killing every single one.

No, it doesn't. "We helped them ascend to make way..."
The "them" is likely referring to the previously spacefaring species. The Catalyst claims it helps the races ascend, which it does, but that doesn't equal "We preserve every single organic being in the galaxy."

But it dodges the issue of killing them. It DOES kill. The fact that it only refers to those it ascends proves it's dishonesty.
Again, if it had a different view it could simply say "We must inevitably kill many organics, but the species is preserved" or something like that. It doesn't, it dances around the issue, refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

[JEPrDEE]

Vigilant111 wrote...

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

It doesn't, it doesn't know about the future cos it does not live in it

But he knows about the past and his logic that all syntetics will kill organics is wrong. Why? because we as organics are still standing, therefore syntetics have at no point in history wiped all organics off the face of the galaxy. Therefore he is assuming this will happen and lying to us.

[Wulfram]

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

Not true.  It's entirely possible that life was extinguished from this galaxy multiple times in it's history.  After all, it seems that life has come to pass independently on multiple worlds, so the odds are that a galactic extinction would not be permanent.  The Catalyst may in fact have carried out a true galactic extermination itself, and be acting out of a (twisted) sense of remorse.  

Or it may have come from another galaxy

Or it may have been constructed as a last ditch attempt to stop such an extermination

Or it may have been the result of a flawed attempt at creating a "friendly AI" designed to stop dangerous AIs, and thus had the belief in the threat programmed into itself from the start.

[The Angry One]

JShepppp wrote...

Dodging being the key word. It doesn't lie or bend the truth.

But I think the Catalyst is incapable of emotion. If it thought it was pertinent to tell Shep that the Reapers exterminated races that didn't fit with their goals (defiant, not genetically able, etc.), it would've, but Shep already knows that. 

Basically, to us, it's probably dodging, but I think from the Catalyst's point of view it's not important so it just doesn't mention it. What's more important for it is explaining the Reapers' goals (harvesting), not their methods (killing non-harvested organics).

But it *is* lying, because "helping them ascend" implies the entire race, when this is not so.

[ghost9191]

Vigilant111 wrote...

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

It doesn't, it doesn't know about the future cos it does not live in it

but if even if he was living in the future wouldn't it make it the present for him?

and what i was going to say is doesn't the catalyst defend his whole rsolution by telling shepard there is no other way, and then turns are and says you have hope or choice? i get the crucible "changes" it but still guess i don't fully understand how the whole cruicible affects the catalyst unless the previous races knew what it was in the first place but whatever

[Memnon]

I started a thread about how the child uses the word "Us" when he refers to the Reapers - so right there he lied about "Them" being "his" solution. I don't know if that was sloppy writing or if was an unintentional slip, but either way it seems like he shifts from being the creator of the solution to indicating that he is actually a part of the Reaper consensus ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

But it *is* lying, because "helping them ascend" implies the entire race, when this is not so.

It doesn't need to explain what it implies, because Shepard has experienced it.  

[kaotician]

Malchat wrote...

Let's say for a moment I accept the Catalyst premise and find his goal of preserving organic life in Reaper form a reasonable and proportionate solution to his stated problem...

...then I still have to rationalize the incomprehensibly extensive and enduring cruelty of the Reaper´s methods.

They don't just surgically and methodically reap the Galaxy, in an efficient and detached manner... no, they violate, mutilate and twist organic life into ugly, barbaric and disposable new forms to be thrown against the desperate survivors.

They instigate strife and bitter warefare among races, creating the horror of the Rachni war or the despair of the Geth invasion.

They invade the very minds and souls of people, perverting them to betray and murder their former friends and allies.

Their sparse communications are deliberately taunting, omnious and calculated to cause despair.

The Reapers are god-machines with no other purpose than to perpuate cruelty on an unimaginable scale, for eternity.

The Catalyst claims he masterminded all of this.

And somehow Commander Shepard, and by extension the player, is supposed to listen to this thing and think 'Hmm... you know what, he has a point. I better follow his suggestions.'

Even my most Renegade Shepard would not go along with this. As a player, I cannot twist my personal ethics to even consider this monster's position as valid.

Bioware representatives who think that going along with (or, equally bad, being mind-controlled by) the Catalyst is somehow heroic and appropriate after subjecting the player to three games of Reaper horror... well, I'll be over here deriding your artistic choices.

Many, many of my own observations, my friend, thanks for the post. The Reapers are morally reprehensible, clearly and absolutely.

[The Angry One]

Wulfram wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

But it *is* lying, because "helping them ascend" implies the entire race, when this is not so.

It doesn't need to explain what it implies, because Shepard has experienced it.  

Yes it does, the Catalyst is attempting to repackage genocide as ascension when Shepard and the Catalyst both know that billions of beings and some entire species are being outright killed.

[Vigilant111]

ghost9191 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

It doesn't, it doesn't know about the future cos it does not live in it

but if even if he was living in the future wouldn't it make it the present for him?

and what i was going to say is doesn't the catalyst defend his whole rsolution by telling shepard there is no other way, and then turns are and says you have hope or choice? i get the crucible "changes" it but still guess i don't fully understand how the whole cruicible affects the catalyst unless the previous races knew what it was in the first place but whatever

My point is, no one knows about the future and neither does the Catalyst, therefore its statement about the created cannot be true, at least have the potential of not being true

The thing is the Crucible cannot remain impartial to reaper tech, just the way that organics are fully dependent on the relays, in other words, all resistance against the reapers are tainted by reaper's planning... BW needs to address that

Modifié par Vigilant111, 05 juin 2012 - 02:52 .

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
It will eventually when the Geth gain the upper hand. The point is they don't even attempt to capture or neutralise these ships and people, they kill every single one.
Because they're under the direct control of a Reaper, that Reaper is killing every single one.

Obviously, the Reaper doesn't consider what it is doing as a danger to the Harvest. If the quarian numbers become too few, it might stop and focus on capturing ships intact.

But it dodges the issue of killing them. It DOES kill. The fact that it only refers to those it ascends proves it's dishonesty.
Again, if it had a different view it could simply say "We must inevitably kill many organics, but the species is preserved" or something like that. It doesn't, it dances around the issue, refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

The issue is not that it kills.
"By wiping out organic life?" That is the issue, Shepard is assuming the Reapers cause the extinction of organic species and the Catalyst is claiming otherwise. We already know the Reapers kill, there would be no point in bringing that up.

The Angry One wrote...
But it *is* lying, because "helping them ascend" implies the entire race, when this is not so.

As I said before, it really doesn't imply the entire race.

[JEPrDEE]

MisterJB wrote...

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

The people who created the Catalyst could have seen synthetics extinguish a thousand races, make millions of garden worlds incapable of bearing life.
It might be an assumption to assume they are going to continue doing this until there is no organic life left but it would be a very, very safe assumption.

i hear you....but where are these machines that almost killed all organics? it must not be the reapers as they were the solution!? Did the 1st reaper just kill em all, why even bother 'ascending' organics when you can just kill synthetics.
The logic at the end is just oustandingly hard to understand, to the point were i dont think bioware could truly grasp what the reapers were.
Explaining the origin of the reapers would hopefully just sort out this mess and give us a better understandin of some douchy kid's crap logig, lies and assumptions

[CeeO-connor]

I chose the blue option. What did you choose?

Modifié par CeeO-connor, 05 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[ardias89]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

How dare you try and bring logic to the ending. It has no place here.

These discussions are kind of pointless if you ask me because it's stupidly difficult to tell evidence from a plothole with these endings.

I think the biggest counter argument is that trustworthy or not, the ending scenes make it appear that he told the truth.

Yeah but if all this evidence is just bugs and plotholes then i am afried this game is really underdeveloped.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
Yes it does, the Catalyst is attempting to repackage genocide as ascension when Shepard and the Catalyst both know that billions of beings and some entire species are being outright killed.

Killing billions of a species doesn't automatically mean that species will be extinct. Point me to a single species we know for a fact the Reapers caused the extinction of. No assumptions like protheans or quarians.