The Angry One wrote...
Yes it does, the Catalyst is attempting to repackage genocide as ascension when Shepard and the Catalyst both know that billions of beings and some entire species are being outright killed.
Wulfram wrote...
JEPrDEE wrote...
How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.
Not true. It's entirely possible that life was extinguished from this galaxy multiple times in it's history. After all, it seems that life has come to pass independently on multiple worlds, so the odds are that a galactic extinction would not be permanent. The Catalyst may in fact have carried out a true galactic extermination itself, and be acting out of a (twisted) sense of remorse.
Or it may have come from another galaxy
Or it may have been constructed as a last ditch attempt to stop such an extermination
Or it may have been the result of a flawed attempt at creating a "friendly AI" designed to stop dangerous AIs, and thus had the belief in the threat programmed into itself from the start.
MisterJB wrote...
Obviously, the Reaper doesn't consider what it is doing as a danger to the Harvest. If the quarian numbers become too few, it might stop and focus on capturing ships intact.The Angry One wrote...
It will eventually when the Geth gain the upper hand. The point is they don't even attempt to capture or neutralise these ships and people, they kill every single one.
Because they're under the direct control of a Reaper, that Reaper is killing every single one.The issue is not that it kills.But it dodges the issue of killing them. It DOES kill. The fact that it only refers to those it ascends proves it's dishonesty.
Again, if it had a different view it could simply say "We must inevitably kill many organics, but the species is preserved" or something like that. It doesn't, it dances around the issue, refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
"By wiping out organic life?" That is the issue, Shepard is assuming the Reapers cause the extinction of organic species and the Catalyst is claiming otherwise. We already know the Reapers kill, there would be no point in bringing that up.As I said before, it really doesn't imply the entire race.The Angry One wrote...
But it *is* lying, because "helping them ascend" implies the entire race, when this is not so.
MisterJB wrote...
Obviously, the Reaper doesn't consider what it is doing as a danger to the Harvest. If the quarian numbers become too few, it might stop and focus on capturing ships intact.
The issue is not that it kills.
"By wiping out organic life?" That is the issue, Shepard is assuming the Reapers cause the extinction of organic species and the Catalyst is claiming otherwise. We already know the Reapers kill, there would be no point in bringing that up.
As I said before, it really doesn't imply the entire race.
Wulfram wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
Yes it does, the Catalyst is attempting to repackage genocide as ascension when Shepard and the Catalyst both know that billions of beings and some entire species are being outright killed.
Why should it waste time telling Shepard things he already knows?
The Angry One wrote...
I've pointed this out many times and I've yet to get a satisfactory response, therefore I am making a topic about it because I crave attention.
For the purposes of this discussion, we will assume that Reaper ascension is just that, that somehow melting bodies into grey/orange goo does ascend them into the mind of a superior (in the Catalyst's view) Reaper form.
Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.
Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.
So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!
MisterJB wrote...
Killing billions of a species doesn't automatically mean that species will be extinct. Point me to a single species we know for a fact the Reapers caused the extinction of. No assumptions like protheans or quarians.The Angry One wrote...
Yes it does, the Catalyst is attempting to repackage genocide as ascension when Shepard and the Catalyst both know that billions of beings and some entire species are being outright killed.
SubAstris wrote...
I'm pretty sure that it is not saying
that it will ascend every single lifeform ever created of that species,
just a sizeable amount. Obviously, that's impractical
Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 03:04 .
But preservation as a reaper is complete extinction. I'm unable to look at it any other way.MisterJB wrote...
Preservation as a Reaper is preferable to complete extinction.
Theodoro wrote...
Not to mention that the Catalyst also says that Shepard will die in the Destroy ending, saying that even he/she is "partly synthetic". The mere fact that Shepard does survive the Destroy ending when the Catalyst just said that he/she wouldn't is a hint that he should not be trusted.
"We harvest advanced civilizations and leave the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.ghost9191 wrote...
when you say "but you kill the rest" i am pretty sure by "rest" you mean the ones that arn't harvested or ascended.the ones that are killed, and when he replies no we help them ascend that is not true because he kills the rest instead of helping them "ascend".
The Angry One wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
I'm pretty sure that it is not saying
that it will ascend every single lifeform ever created of that species,
just a sizeable amount. Obviously, that's impractical
Obviously. Which means it kills a significant amount, and if it were being honest it would acknowledge this.
Taboo-XX wrote...
I don't think he lies necessarily, but I do think he is fallible.
An AI that hasn't taken in any new information since he began the harvesting cycle millions of years ago?
Yeah, he doesn't have much data to support his claims. It doesn't matter if he is lying or not, he is irrelevant.
The Angry One wrote...
I've pointed this out many times and I've yet to get a satisfactory response, therefore I am making a topic about it because I crave attention.
For the purposes of this discussion, we will assume that Reaper ascension is just that, that somehow melting bodies into grey/orange goo does ascend them into the mind of a superior (in the Catalyst's view) Reaper form.
Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.
Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.
So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!
Taboo-XX wrote...
Actually the destruction of a species and mixing of DNA is considered genocide by international law.
Yeah...
kaotician wrote...
Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.
Vigilant111 wrote...
Taboo-XX wrote...
Actually the destruction of a species and mixing of DNA is considered genocide by international law.
Yeah...
...and now they will say this law does not apply, the reapers have their own set of law
MisterJB wrote...
"We harvest advanced civilizations and leave the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.ghost9191 wrote...
when you say "but you kill the rest" i am pretty sure by "rest" you mean the ones that arn't harvested or ascended.the ones that are killed, and when he replies no we help them ascend that is not true because he kills the rest instead of helping them "ascend".
But you killed the rest."
By "the rest" Shepard is, most likely, referring to the advanced civilizations that came before humanity. The Catalyst claims they were converted into Reapers, which is true, but that does not equal "We preserved all organic beings that composed those civilizations,"
The Angry One wrote...
Also, did you know: If you fail to stop the indoctrinated Hanar from disabling the Kahje orbital defences, a news report says that Kahje is completely overrun and... "there were no survivors".
No, "lost contact" or "planet occupied" but "no survivors". Implying the Reapers just bombed the hell out of them. Meaning that they exterminated the Hanar, and the Drell. Two races killed outright, no ifs, buts or maybes.
It is to it. It is not lying, it simply has a different perspective.There is a point, because the Catalyst denies killing. It calls it ascension, harvesting and preservation.
Killing a great deal of them doesn't mean the race is not preserved as a Reaper in which case, the Catalyst considers the race alive.How does it not? His words deliberately ignore and try to bury the fact that it kills a great deal of them.
Heeden wrote...
To the Catalyst an individual person is no more important than an individual cell in an animal's body (note: this is an analogy). Treat a person roughly and you may kill many thousands of individual cells but it would not make you a murderer.
SubAstris wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
I'm pretty sure that it is not saying
that it will ascend every single lifeform ever created of that species,
just a sizeable amount. Obviously, that's impractical
Obviously. Which means it kills a significant amount, and if it were being honest it would acknowledge this.
It needs to kill a significant amount just to ensure that the Reapers themselves survive and are not killed. But for the vast majority, it would turn into new Reaper form
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