473 réponses à ce sujet

[ardias89]

JEPrDEE wrote...

How does he even know all synthetics will kill organics? If this has happened before then we as an organic would not be standing infront of him. Its all lies and assumptions.

Javik comment is interresting here. (Not sure if it is exactly what he says but im pretty sure) "The Metacon war, we were turning the tide against the Sha'til. Then the Reapers came and we found out that machines had surpassed us long ago." The little (big) dilemma here is that the Reapers in a way are the things the Catalyst claims to be stopping. Wierd that the godlike being cannot see this.

[Vigilant111]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Actually the destruction of a species and mixing of DNA is considered genocide by international law.

Yeah...

...and now they will say this law does not apply, the reapers have their own set of law

Bull****.

So because I'm stronger I'm above you?

Yeah, ugh, they are not the ubermensch.

Control/synthesis supporters just won't accept that the reapers are a bunch of bullies<_<

[SubAstris]

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

[Ageless Face]

My assumption is that the catalyst does not see death as we do. We see death both of mind and body. To him it's ONLY the body. He claims the reapers preserve the organic body. It's not truly a "body death" for him, but ascension into another form.

I don't believe the catalyst understand organic mind (making the reapers to kill organics in order to save organics is an evidence into how much he knows and cares about organic mind), so he holds no meaning to it. Organic body however is easy for him to process.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

I can come up with a few. Would you say no colonist survived the Collector Base? Ah, but they were being Harvested. So, the same thing could have happened on Kahje and organics would just report "no survivors".

Harvesting takes time. This report comes up shortly after that mission and states "no survivors".
Given that the Reapers didn't have enough forces to take Kahje without the sabotage they simply couldn't have occupied and organised harvesting which involves rounding up civilians, placing them in processing camps, transporting them to ships and so on.

It is not a low population colony where the population can be scooped up in a matter of hours.

Killing a great deal of them doesn't mean the race is not preserved as a Reaper in which case, the Catalyst considers the race alive.

Yes, so it uses this and glosses over the deaths, deliberately lying about that.

[Wulfram]

Vigilant111 wrote...

What is the point of this? so the views are different, doesn't make it right... we are playing as Shepard, not harbingers

Who has claimed that the Reapers are right?  What has been claimed and is disputed is that the Catalyst was lying.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

To the Catalyst an individual person is no more important than an individual cell in an animal's body (note: this is an analogy). Treat a person roughly and you may kill many thousands of individual cells but it would not make you a murderer.

What is the point of this? so the views are different, doesn't make it right... we are playing as Shepard, not harbingers

Sorry, I thought we were discussing whether the Catalyst was lying or not. As far as the Catalyst is concerned the Reaper cycle is not killing as the supposed victims till exist in what it considers an improved form.

The fact we as individuals find it horrific and repugnant does not change the validity of the statement.

[JEPrDEE]

The whole preserving and ascending rubbish is just.....rubbish.

If this is the whole reaper purpose why would they not instead...

A. Warn organics at stages througout our development, 'hey if you start messing to much with syntetics were gonna eat you up and turn all of you into one of us'

B. Why Not just kill the synthetics?

Seems alot more nicer than turning us into gooey mess to be made into a reaper.

[Vigilant111]

HagarIshay wrote...

My assumption is that the catalyst does not see death as we do. We see death both of mind and body. To him it's ONLY the body. He claims the reapers preserve the organic body. It's not truly a "body death" for him, but ascension into another form.

I don't believe the catalyst understand organic mind (making the reapers to kill organics in order to save organics is an evidence into how much he knows and cares about organic mind), so he holds no meaning to it. Organic body however is easy for him to process.

It does not understand death because it cannot die, it is "immortal", they all share the same thoughts act the same way, one falls, no biggie, next up

[SubAstris]

The Angry One wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I'm pretty sure that it is not saying
that it will ascend every single lifeform ever created of that species,
just a sizeable amount. Obviously, that's impractical

Obviously. Which means it kills a significant amount, and if it were being honest it would acknowledge this.

It needs to kill a significant amount just to ensure that the Reapers themselves survive and are not killed. But for the vast majority, it would turn into new Reaper form

And again, if it were honest it would acknowledge this.
Furthermore given the numbers hinted at in ME2, it should take no more than a few million to make one Sovereign class Reaper. Since it's only ever implied that one Reaper per civilisation is made, that means billions are going to die or be turned into husks.
Given how very, very picky Reapers seem to be, this makes sense.

His lack of acknowledgement doesn't necessarily imply lying. You might have wanted more information, but the fact that he didn't reveal all his ideas and things about himself doesn't mean he is hiding all details. BW wanted the Catalyst scene to be short and for the audience to come to their own conclusions about some of the smaller details

[Taboo]

Yes, well David Caresh "saved" his followers when he burned his structure to the ground at the end of the Waco siege.

He killed them.

Woman, Children and even himself.

WELL?

[Ageless Face]

Vigilant111 wrote...


It does not understand death because it cannot die, it is "immortal", they all share the same thoughts act the same way, one falls, no biggie, next up

So we can both agree that he cannot understand organic death and he sees it in a different way than us?

[General User]

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

To the Catalyst an individual person is no more important than an individual cell in an animal's body (note: this is an analogy). Treat a person roughly and you may kill many thousands of individual cells but it would not make you a murderer.

What is the point of this? so the views are different, doesn't make it right... we are playing as Shepard, not harbingers

Sorry, I thought we were discussing whether the Catalyst was lying or not. As far as the Catalyst is concerned the Reaper cycle is not killing as the supposed victims till exist in what it considers an improved form.

The fact we as individuals find it horrific and repugnant does not change the validity of the statement.

Okay I get u now, u are saying they are not lying cos they did not know they are... then it is okay?

Then I suggest them to take a class

[Taboo]

As an organic I'm going to vie for self preservation thank you.

I would think that after millions of years they would understand that NO ONE likes being harvested.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Control/synthesis supporters just won't accept that the reapers are a bunch of bullies<_<

Because the term bully doesn't apply well. The term gardner would be more fitting, or even shepherd.

[Vigilant111]

HagarIshay wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...


It does not understand death because it cannot die, it is "immortal", they all share the same thoughts act the same way, one falls, no biggie, next up

So we can both agree that he cannot understand organic death and he sees it in a different way than us?

Yes, *sensing a trap, like the Geth and EDI

[Wulfram]

General User wrote...

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

Manipulation, maybe.  Hardly deception.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
Harvesting takes time. This report comes up shortly after that mission and states "no survivors".
Given that the Reapers didn't have enough forces to take Kahje without the sabotage they simply couldn't have occupied and organised harvesting which involves rounding up civilians, placing them in processing camps, transporting them to ships and so on.

It is not a low population colony where the population can be scooped up in a matter of hours.

It should also take hours to cross a star system, even at FTL speeds, but we do it in seconds because it's more convenient for the player. Unless we are specifically told the Reapers bombed Kahje from orbit, the chance that the Hanar and Drell were Harvested exists.

Yes, so it uses this and glosses over the deaths, deliberately lying about that.

"But you killed the rest." The "rest" here being "advanced civilizations" that came before humanity.
Did the Catalyst kill those civilizations? Not, it preserved them. Therefore, it is not lying.

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Control/synthesis supporters just won't accept that the reapers are a bunch of bullies<_<

Because the term bully doesn't apply well. The term gardner would be more fitting, or even shepherd.

So if the reapers are forcing me to accept their ideals, then why can't they accept mine?

[SubAstris]

JEPrDEE wrote...

The whole preserving and ascending rubbish is just.....rubbish.

If this is the whole reaper purpose why would they not instead...

A. Warn organics at stages througout our development, 'hey if you start messing to much with syntetics were gonna eat you up and turn all of you into one of us'

B. Why Not just kill the synthetics?

Seems alot more nicer than turning us into gooey mess to be made into a reaper.

A) There is no way to ensure any organics would do anything. The benefits of creating synthetics would be enormous and humans are notorious for going for short term benefits and being ignorant of long term effects

It is much easier to cut the problem off at the source (organics).

[Taboo]

HE IS NOT LYING.

HE IS FALLIBLE.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Okay I get u now, u are saying they are not lying cos they did not know they are... then it is okay?

Then I suggest them to take a class

No need, the cycle has been broken and responsibility has been passed along. The Catalyst recognises his time is over, life in the galaxy has evolved beyond his ability to predict and it's time for a new Shepard.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

It should also take hours to cross a star system, even at FTL speeds, but we do it in seconds because it's more convenient for the player. Unless we are specifically told the Reapers bombed Kahje from orbit, the chance that the Hanar and Drell were Harvested exists.

So? Even if we assume a couple of weeks passed at most, harvesting takes at least a decade for a world like Earth.
Let's assume it's half that for Kahje. No, let's be real generous and say it'd take a year. That's still too long.

Y"But you killed the rest." The "rest" here being "advanced civilizations" that came before humanity.
Did the Catalyst kill those civilizations? Not, it preserved them. Therefore, it is not lying.

It killed a significant chunk of them. It completely dodges this and chooses to lie by claiming they were ascended.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Control/synthesis supporters just won't accept that the reapers are a bunch of bullies<_<

Because the term bully doesn't apply well. The term gardner would be more fitting, or even shepherd.

So if the reapers are forcing me to accept their ideals, then why can't they accept mine?

Great idea! Maybe you could take Control of them, or Destroy them, or Synthesise the galaxy for some sort of techno-hippy utopia.