473 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Okay I get u now, u are saying they are not lying cos they did not know they are... then it is okay?

Then I suggest them to take a class

No need, the cycle has been broken and responsibility has been passed along. The Catalyst recognises his time is over, life in the galaxy has evolved beyond his ability to predict and it's time for a new Shepard.

YES.

HE IS FALLIBLE.

[Cypher_CS]

 In the epic words of Keanu Reeves, as Neo, "Woah, deja vu".

This isn't your first topic to start with "I've asked this before, didn't get a satsifactory answer", is it?

Who are you kidding, really?
You don't want an answer, you just want to argue senselessly as always. Or, almost always.

You can't ask the question you are asking if you keep claiming bad writing. Because, if you believe that, then that's your answer.
You can't ask the question you are asking without admitting that you take everything the most literral way possible, that every single syllable means the narrowest possible interpretation, without any possibility of expansion. Cause, surely, the Catalyst can't be talking metaphorically or on a different level than just the war time...

Speaking of war time - why the hell would Shepard, a full Commander in the Alliance, a Spectre, a soldier that has been through so many conflicts, would ask about the war killing?
Does it not stand to reason that Shepard is asking the larger question? The one about liquification?

Nah, no way...

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Okay I get u now, u are saying they are not lying cos they did not know they are... then it is okay?

Then I suggest them to take a class

No need, the cycle has been broken and responsibility has been passed along. The Catalyst recognises his time is over, life in the galaxy has evolved beyond his ability to predict and it's time for a new Shepard.

Hooray!!!

waiting for that punch line... applause applause

[Taboo]

All things are subject to the same rules.

There is no Nietzhchian bull**** here.

The Reapers need to be stopped, and you are given three options to do so.

[General User]

Wulfram wrote...

General User wrote...

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

Manipulation, maybe.  Hardly deception.

I'd accept either descriptor.  In either case it makes the Catalyst an untrustworthy party.

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

 In the epic words of Keanu Reeves, as Neo, "Woah, deja vu".

This isn't your first topic to start with "I've asked this before, didn't get a satsifactory answer", is it?

No it isn't, because there are many questions that have no satisfactory answers.

Who are you kidding, really?
You don't want an answer, you just want to argue senselessly as always. Or, almost always.

If I got a satisfactory answer, I would acknowledge it. You're just whining because there is none.

You can't ask the question you are asking if you keep claiming bad writing. Because, if you believe that, then that's your answer.
You can't ask the question you are asking without admitting that you take everything the most literral way possible, that every single syllable means the narrowest possible interpretation, without any possibility of expansion. Cause, surely, the Catalyst can't be talking metaphorically or on a different level than just the war time...

Surely you can come up with an actual argument and not demand I be abstract for no reason.

Speaking of war time - why the hell would Shepard, a full Commander in the Alliance, a Spectre, a soldier that has been through so many conflicts, would ask about the war killing?

Bombing defenceless colonies is not war.
Turning people into husks or killing them outright for not being "worthy" is not war.
Shooting down civilians escaping in shuttles is not war.

It is murder.

Does it not stand to reason that Shepard is asking the larger question? The one about liquification?

Nah, no way...

You mean the one where Shepard ALREADY KNOWS they become Reapers?

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[Grimwick]

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like they claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

Modifié par Grimwick, 05 juin 2012 - 03:35 .

[jla0644]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I can come up with a few. Would you say no colonist survived the Collector Base? Ah, but they were being Harvested. So, the same thing could have happened on Kahje and organics would just report "no survivors".

Harvesting takes time. This report comes up shortly after that mission and states "no survivors".
Given that the Reapers didn't have enough forces to take Kahje without the sabotage they simply couldn't have occupied and organised harvesting which involves rounding up civilians, placing them in processing camps, transporting them to ships and so on.

It is not a low population colony where the population can be scooped up in a matter of hours.

Killing a great deal of them doesn't mean the race is not preserved as a Reaper in which case, the Catalyst considers the race alive.

Yes, so it uses this and glosses over the deaths, deliberately lying about that.

You've stated in other posts in this thread that your whole point was to present this as an example of bad writing, that you realize the story doesn't give us any other choice but to believe what it is saying. I agree with you on this part.

But why are you trying so hard to prove that it was "deliberately lying"? Are you saying it was purposefully written that way, to serve as a clue not to trust it? And if so, what happens next? You've proven it's lying to you, now what? If you're not an Indoctrination Theorist, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. We already knew the scene was horribly written.

Modifié par jla0644, 05 juin 2012 - 03:32 .

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
So? Even if we assume a couple of weeks passed at most, harvesting takes at least a decade for a world like Earth.
Let's assume it's half that for Kahje. No, let's be real generous and say it'd take a year. That's still too long.

Yes, it would be awfully fast, even taking into consideration Kahje would put much less resistance than Earth or Thessia. That doesn't mean it did not happen since it's hard to tell the passage of the time during the game.

It killed a significant chunk of them. It completely dodges this and chooses to lie by claiming they were ascended.

Now we're just going in circles. The Catalyst never claimed it saved everyone, only that it preserves organic races which it does.

[Penumbra80]

The Reapers have always made it clear that they have no use for the physical bodies of the harvested, other than cannon fodder.  Their imperative is the preservation of a sizable amount of the minds/conciousness of their crop, housed in a virtually immortal construct and free from the physical needs and perils that usually accompany this mortal coil.  Legion remarks that it is definitely a form of transcendence.

[Walsh1980]

First of all, I'm not a "Pro-Ender", I hate the ending just as much as anyone. The reason I choose to believe the Catalyst is telling the truth is because all evidence so far shows that Bioware intended this, rushed, abrupt, in a word... crappy, ending to be the very end. Of everything. Is it so hard to believe that the geth and edi, being flat out AIs based on Reaper tech, would be affected by Destroy but not Shepards implants and that when he says "even you are partially synthetic" he simply means he doesn't know what will happen to Shepards body? And that unless you play mp and get a good EMS he DOES die. What I see in all the endings are the Reapers leaving or dying, and Joker going on a three hour tour (a three hour tour). Nothing about that says the Catalyst is lying.

In truth, there is no right answer, because the ending doesn't give us enough information either way. Maybe he is lying, but if he is, than Bioware has committed a grievous error in not saying so and giving us a real end. I'd much rather believe that they just stumbled with a bad ending than purposefully left us hanging meant for all this ending falllout to happen. Really I don't think they can win with the EC because the fanbase is so split, and not just 2 ways, that they'll never make everyone happy and anything they do will look like they let us write the ending for them.

[Vigilant111]

Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

So anyone? anyone wanna answer this question? what? because they love me? or do they love chaos, crave chaos, it gives the reapers a purpose

[Taboo]

So if I kill you and put your memories into a tube you'd be okay with it?

[The Angry One]

jla0644 wrote...

You've stated in other posts in this thread that your whole point was to present this as an example of bad writing, that you realize the story doesn't give us any other choice but to believe what it is saying. I agree with you on this part.

But why are you trying so hard to prove that it was "deliberately lying"? Are you saying it was purposefully written that way, to serve as a clue not to trust it? And if so, what happens next? You've proven it's lying to you, now what? If you're not an Indoctrination Theorist, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. We already knew the scene was horribly written.

Because it's glossing over an obvious fact. Whether it was intentionally written that way or not, that is what it's doing.
It can't possibly not be aware of the billions of beings it is exterminating, therefore it is lying.

[lillitheris]

Seems kind of a pointless question. There is nothing that is known at the moment of making the decision that would support trusting the Catalyst (whereas there are numerous reasons to disbelieve). All arguments in favor more or less rely on meta-knowledge.

Did anyone try shouting “I Disbelieve!”, by the way? Did it work?

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, it would be awfully fast, even taking into consideration Kahje would put much less resistance than Earth or Thessia. That doesn't mean it did not happen since it's hard to tell the passage of the time during the game.

Harvesting is not a fast process, resistance or no.
People are taken to camps where they are individually examined by husks to see if they are suitable for Reaperisation, huskification or just disposed of. Then they are taken to processing ships.
This takes time.

Now we're just going in circles. The Catalyst never claimed it saved everyone, only that it preserves organic races which it does.

And I have a) proof that it doesn't do this to all races and  the knowledge that only a select few of each species is ever "ascended".

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
Bombing defenceless colonies is not war.

The turians seem to think so. They bombed innocent colonists on Shanxi.

Turning people into husks or killing them outright for not being "worthy" is not war.

Actually, as Garrus points out, that's just brilliant strategy.
And we should probrably get used to seeing more of these tactics in future wars even if the Reapers are destroyed.

[Wulfram]

Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

Why would the Catalyst lie to you, rather than leave you unconscious on the floor?  

Why would he lie about this, but tell you the truth about what shooting the tube does?

If he is lying, what other basis does Shepard have to do anything?  Other than sit down and watch the annihilation of the allied fleets, I suppose.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

The turians seem to think so. They bombed innocent colonists on Shanxi.

This makes it okay how?
Moreover I doubt the Turians would lie about their actions. They'd say "Yes, we did it to force you to capitulate." and not "We helped them find peace!".

Actually, as Garrus points out, that's just brilliant strategy.
And we should probrably get used to seeing more of these tactics in future wars even if the Reapers are destroyed.

This changes it from being murder how exactly?

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juin 2012 - 03:39 .

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...
Now we're just going in circles. The Catalyst never claimed it saved everyone, only that it preserves organic races which it does.

No it doesn't. It kills them.

There is nothing left of the original race that is preserved within the reapers...

And in the end it kills all organic races...

Your point?

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

You can't ask the question you are asking if you keep claiming bad writing. Because, if you believe that, then that's your answer.
You can't ask the question you are asking without admitting that you take everything the most literral way possible, that every single syllable means the narrowest possible interpretation, without any possibility of expansion. Cause, surely, the Catalyst can't be talking metaphorically or on a different level than just the war time...

Surely you can come up with an actual argument and not demand I be abstract for no reason.

Demand you be abstract?
I'm not demanding abstraction, I'm asking for clarity.
Decide what your one stance is - do you believe the writing is bad? Then you void the question.
Do you believe it isn't? Then broaden your mind and receive your answer below.

The Angry One wrote... 

Speaking of war time - why the hell would Shepard, a full Commander in the Alliance, a Spectre, a soldier that has been through so many conflicts, would ask about the war killing?

Bombing defenceless colonies is not war.
Turning people into husks or killing them outright for not being "worthy" is not war.
Shooting down civilians escaping in shuttles is not war.

It is murder.

No no, that's war. It's the Reapers' brand of war. They don't have to abide by the Marquess of Queensberry for it to be war.

The Angry One wrote...  

Does it not stand to reason that Shepard is asking the larger question? The one about liquification?

Nah, no way...

You mean the one where Shepard ALREADY KNOWS they become Reapers?

Seriously? Seriously?

Of course he knows that!
I'm saying he's asking about WHY they do THAT?
He doesn't understand what they achieve by killing people and gooing them up into Reapers.

Unless, again, you insist on being literral.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

So anyone? anyone wanna answer this question? what? because they love me? or do they love chaos, crave chaos, it gives the reapers a purpose

I've yet to see anyone to give a good reason why the Catalyst would lie, he's holding all the cards anyway.

[MisterJB]

And I have a) proof that it doesn't do this to all races

No, you don't. But we've been over this. Quarians, Kahje, etc.
 

and  the knowledge that only a select few of each species is ever "ascended".

So? The specie's essence, according to the Catalyst's criteria, is preserved. That is the point.

[Grimwick]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...[/quote]

Why would the Catalyst lie to you, rather than leave you unconscious on the floor?  [/quote]

Not an argument.

[quote]Why would he lie about this, but tell you the truth about what shooting the tube does?[/quote]

You only know it was the truth after you did it.
That argument is irrelevant.

[quote]If he is lying, what other basis does Shepard have to do anything?  Other than sit down and watch the annihilation of the allied fleets, I suppose.
[/quote][/quote]

Nope, he doesn't. It's one of the reasons why the ending and the entire concept of the SC is ridiculous.

Modifié par Grimwick, 05 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

So? The specie's essence, according to the Catalyst's criteria, is preserved. That is the point.

Are you ****ing serious?

Some of my **** is preserved at the CDC building becuase I had Salmonella but it isn't ME.