473 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
No it doesn't. It kills them.
There is nothing left of the original race that is preserved within the reapers...
And in the end it kills all organic races...
Your point?

From your perspective, not the Catalyst's.
And my point is that it is not lying. It just looks at things differently.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The turians seem to think so. They bombed innocent colonists on Shanxi.

This makes it okay how?

Oh no...

You're not getting away with sidestepping the topic.
Don't turn your original question into a different, moral one.

The subject of that quote is "bombing colonies" constituting war or not. Not the morality of the issue...

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Bombing defenceless colonies is not war.

The turians seem to think so. They bombed innocent colonists on Shanxi.

And if we had won that war you can be certain that those turians would have hung for it.  But we didn't win that war, we accepted a negotiated peace.  Now through a great deal of effort and sacrifice and even (ironically) the Catalyst's own intervention, we have won the Reaper War.  Shepard has the moral and professional responsibility to provide safety for the living and justice to the dead.

Modifié par General User, 05 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Demand you be abstract?
I'm not demanding abstraction, I'm asking for clarity.
Decide what your one stance is - do you believe the writing is bad? Then you void the question.
Do you believe it isn't? Then broaden your mind and receive your answer below.

False dilemma. The writing is bad, because Mac Walters didn't think anything through, and thus gave us a genocidal liar we are forced to agree with.
I've stated time and again that the fact that the Catalyst is a liar isn't the problem, that we can't challenge it's lies is.

No no, that's war. It's the Reapers' brand of war. They don't have to abide by the Marquess of Queensberry for it to be war.

Hey, genius. If all organics surrendered, the Reapers would still kill them. How is that war?

Seriously? Seriously?

Of course he knows that!
I'm saying he's asking about WHY they do THAT?
He doesn't understand what they achieve by killing people and gooing them up into Reapers.

Unless, again, you insist on being literral.

And the Catalyst doesn't explain that by saying "we help them ascend". That is a non-answer. Ascend to what? How? By what means are their minds preserved? 

[Joe Del Toro]

Somewhere, on the Crucible construction station...

Crucible Scientist 1: Hey, what's this?

Crucible Scientist 2: What?

CS1: I've infiltrated the Crucible's core programming. It's got 4 files at the centre of it all.

CS2: What are they?

CS1: "bluesplosion.exe, redsploson.exe, greensplosion.exe and....lyingchild.dll"

CS2: ...What do you suppose those are?

CS1: Eh, whatever, it's my lunch break, let's go get tacos.

Just a theory, of course.

Modifié par Joe Del Toro, 05 juin 2012 - 03:45 .

[JEPrDEE]

SubAstris wrote...

JEPrDEE wrote...

The whole preserving and ascending rubbish is just.....rubbish.

If this is the whole reaper purpose why would they not instead...

A. Warn organics at stages througout our development, 'hey if you start messing to much with syntetics were gonna eat you up and turn all of you into one of us'

B. Why Not just kill the synthetics?

Seems alot more nicer than turning us into gooey mess to be made into a reaper.

A) There is no way to ensure any organics would do anything. The benefits of creating synthetics would be enormous and humans are notorious for going for short term benefits and being ignorant of long term effects

It is much easier to cut the problem off at the source (organics).

Yes but...

A. Whould still be giving us a choice and a warning. More fool us if we do not heed there warnings, we deserve it.

B. Killing synthetics would be a MUCH more humane way to preserve organics.

[Grimwick]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

So anyone? anyone wanna answer this question? what? because they love me? or do they love chaos, crave chaos, it gives the reapers a purpose

I've yet to see anyone to give a good reason why the Catalyst would lie, he's holding all the cards anyway.

Maybe he doesn't hold ALL the cards and is worried that the Crucible might work.

Therefore he sets up a trap.

Maybe he can't activate the devices he wants to himself? So persuades Shepard to do it for him, where in fact they are traps/help the reapers...

EDIT - It's also a moot point because as the antagonist his default position is as an enemy.

Therefore the defaulty position of Shepard should be mistrust and therefore it is proponents of trustworthiness who have the burden of evidence.

Modifié par Grimwick, 05 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The turians seem to think so. They bombed innocent colonists on Shanxi.

This makes it okay how?
Moreover I doubt the Turians would lie about their actions. They'd say "Yes, we did it to force you to capitulate." and not "We helped them find peace!".

Actually, as Garrus points out, that's just brilliant strategy.
And we should probrably get used to seeing more of these tactics in future wars even if the Reapers are destroyed.

This changes it from being murder how exactly?

You claimed it was not war. It is.
Yes, it's wrong and horrifying. That doesn't stop it from being war.

Taboo-XX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So? The specie's essence, according to the Catalyst's criteria, is preserved. That is the point.

Are you ****ing serious?

Some of my **** is preserved at the CDC building becuase I had Salmonella but it isn't ME.

I am not claiming the Catalyst is right. I am simply looking at the situation from its perspective.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
No it doesn't. It kills them.
There is nothing left of the original race that is preserved within the reapers...
And in the end it kills all organic races...
Your point?

From your perspective, not the Catalyst's.
And my point is that it is not lying. It just looks at things differently.

The word preservation represents a universal concept.

He can't randomly change the definition to suit his liking.

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I just wonder why the Catalyst WOULDN'T lie to you like claim he doesn't.

He has, after all, been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy for the last 3 games...

So anyone? anyone wanna answer this question? what? because they love me? or do they love chaos, crave chaos, it gives the reapers a purpose

I've yet to see anyone to give a good reason why the Catalyst would lie, he's holding all the cards anyway.

Catalyst lies so that reapers can continue to exert influence one way or another, even with destroy, the legacy of the reapers will always scar the galaxy, not to mention the destruction of relays, which seemingly unrepairable as suggested by some control supporters

[JEPrDEE]

Preserving and ascending are not the same. So how can he be claiming to do both?

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

You claimed it was not war. It is.
Yes, it's wrong and horrifying. That doesn't stop it from being war.

Again, total capitulation on the part of the organics would end in the same result. Billions would still be killed and huskified.
It is not war when one side isn't fighting, it is slaughter.

[Taboo]

The Catalyst is fallacious.

He presents an APPEAL TO PROBABILITY.

THIS IS A FORMAL FALLACY.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 05 juin 2012 - 03:48 .

[RubiconI7]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Speculation: the Catalyst is not concerned with individual members of a species, it only cares about preserving its essence as a Reaper. Killing the millions of organics that compose their military; the child was flying in a military shuttle; does not prevent the species from ascending.
The Codex says that Husks come only from organics the Reapers consider innadequate to Ascension.

Then why does it deny killing us? It specifically says it isn't.
It doesn't even resort to the standard "Some deaths are necesarry for progress".

The exact line is:

Shepard: "But you killed the rest."

Catalyst: "We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

And we have to swallow that. 

That's just plain wrong on so many levels

[Cypher_CS]

The Angry One wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Demand you be abstract?
I'm not demanding abstraction, I'm asking for clarity.
Decide what your one stance is - do you believe the writing is bad? Then you void the question.
Do you believe it isn't? Then broaden your mind and receive your answer below.

False dilemma. The writing is bad, because Mac Walters didn't think anything through, and thus gave us a genocidal liar we are forced to agree with.
I've stated time and again that the fact that the Catalyst is a liar isn't the problem, that we can't challenge it's lies is.

Ah, so the lying is not part of the bad writing. Got ya.

The Angry One wrote... 

No no, that's war. It's the Reapers' brand of war. They don't have to abide by the Marquess of Queensberry for it to be war.

Hey, genius. If all organics surrendered, the Reapers would still kill them. How is that war?

First of all, how did you know? I never published by IQ scores here.

Secondly, yes that would still be war.
Thirdly, if all surrendered, the Reapers would still want to liquify, then the question would be even more apt... just in case you were wondering where, again, you shot your own argument.

The Angry One wrote... 

Seriously? Seriously?

Of course he knows that!
I'm saying he's asking about WHY they do THAT?
He doesn't understand what they achieve by killing people and gooing them up into Reapers.

Unless, again, you insist on being literral.

And the Catalyst doesn't explain that by saying "we help them ascend". That is a non-answer. Ascend to what? How? By what means are their minds preserved? 

Isn't that, again, part of the bad writing?
It does give the answer, it just doesn't explain it.
So, I do get you aren't satisfied with the answer itself. But answer it is.

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
The word preservation represents a universal concept.
He can't randomly change the definition to suit his liking.

Preservation means to keep alive. If something is sentient, it is alive. The Reapers that originated from organics are alive. Therefore, it is preservation. From a certain point of view.

[3DandBeyond]

You also have to look at the basic flaws in his logic that indicate he is at least crazy, but is definitely evil. He stands before Shepard in some innocuous looking form. Why, if not to deceive. Why not appear as a toad or as TIM or Anderson? He picked the least objectionable form (well, I object to it but in general Shepard is supposedly going to be hit in the heart, ugh).

The flaws are that the kid says basically the created will destroy the creators, but the reverse has been true-the Quarians were killing the Geth and the Geth merely fought for self-preservation. And they retreated until the reapers (Sovereign) came along and used them. So, the creators were destroying the created and the created fought back and then left the creators alone. But when Sovereign came along the created didn't go after the Quarians. Instead, they seemed to target other organics.

He isn't lying, he's crazy and stupid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
The word preservation represents a universal concept.
He can't randomly change the definition to suit his liking.

Preservation means to keep alive. If something is sentient, it is alive. The Reapers that originated from organics are alive. Therefore, it is preservation. From a certain point of view.

No it isn't.

Preservation means to keep something intact.

This is obviously not the case with the reapers and it cannot be defined as preservation from any point of view.

[Taboo]

I had bacteria in my preserved ****.

Salmonella Type G Poona.

Somehow I don't think that it's preservation means much of anything.

[SubAstris]

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

Modifié par SubAstris, 05 juin 2012 - 03:53 .

[The Angry One]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Ah, so the lying is not part of the bad writing. Got ya.

In itself, it may not be. But it is a result of it.

First of all, how did you know? I never published by IQ scores here.

Secondly, yes that would still be war.

I think you need to look up the definition of war.

Thirdly, if all surrendered, the Reapers would still want to liquify, then the question would be even more apt... just in case you were wondering where, again, you shot your own argument.

What? They would liquify some, huskify others and kill the rest.
Low population cities are bombed into smoking craters because the Reapers don't feel like processing half a million people per city and such.

Isn't that, again, part of the bad writing?

So what, I shouldn't point it out?

It does give the answer, it just doesn't explain it.
So, I do get you aren't satisfied with the answer itself. But answer it is.

Because it's propaganda, and Shepard looks like an idiot for leaving it at that.

[Taboo]

NICE formatting.

Look up a list of fallacies.

The Catalyst presents one.

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
No it isn't.
Preservation means to keep something intact.
This is obviously not the case with the reapers and it cannot be defined as preservation from any point of view.

Preservation doesn't require that something to be intact, only alive. That is the case here.
The Reapers make it so organics won't be destroyed by synthetics. It is preservation.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Vigilant111]

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Angry One wrote...

Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.

And Shepard sacrificed a whole star system in an attempt to save the galaxy. Is he/she lying about trying to save the galaxy?

Both sides need to sacrifice to win the war. Especially since two of the Reapers' big tactical advantages (Citadel, Alpha Relay) were taken away from them.

Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.

Again, they probably aren't going to harvest every last soul in the galaxy. That's simply inefficient. Besides, you don't need a whole living body to get genetic material from it. You can get that from skin flakes, hair, tissue, blood...

So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!

Or maybe Mac Walters just got carried away with using that kid. He was shoved in your face during the intro scene, and then again in the dream sequence. Also kind of like how he gets carried away with Liara. ME: Genesis which he wrote was a Liara slobber fest, and as lead-writer of this game, she got far more attention than anyone else.

The Catalyst may as well have been in Liara form, it would no different than what it is now: bad writing, nothing more.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 05 juin 2012 - 03:57 .