473 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

The Catalyst...presents a fallacy.

A FALLACY.

AN APPEAL TO PROBABILITY IS A ****ING FALLACY.

UNDERSTAND THIS.

[kaotician]

Wulfram wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

Were you decieved into thinking that this glowing thing which told you it was the Citadel was actually a human child?

No. My point is not that the deception succeeds or fails, it's that the Catalyst tries to deceive at all in the first place, by crassly represnting itself to us as something analogous to a human child - one it's lifted from Shepard's mind, and had killed too, as it happens. Whether the catalyst is succesful as a liar was not I think the question, it was whether he was per se a liar. 

Modifié par kaotician, 05 juin 2012 - 03:56 .

[MisterJB]

General User wrote...
And if we had won that war you can be certain that those turians would have hung for it.  But we didn't win that war, we accepted a negotiated peace.  Now through a great deal of effort and sacrifice and even (ironically) the Catalyst's own intervention, we have won the Reaper War.  Shepard has the moral and professional responsibility to provide safety for the living and justice to the dead.

Oooh boy, let's not go there. If we start talking about wheter the Reapers must pay for the dead, this will turn into a Destroy vs Control vs Synthesis thread before we know it

[General User]

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
No it isn't.
Preservation means to keep something intact.
This is obviously not the case with the reapers and it cannot be defined as preservation from any point of view.

Preservation doesn't require that something to be intact, only alive. That is the case here.
The Reapers make it so organics won't be destroyed by synthetics. It is preservation.

Preservation: The act of preserving.

Preserving: 
Maintain (something) in its original or existing state/Retain (a condition or state of affairs).
I'm sorry but that's just wrong.

Modifié par Grimwick, 05 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[kaotician]

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

Well, I guesss we have to presume that he needs to take some form or other in order to talk to us, but a human child? It's clearly on some level a deception, to me.

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
Preservation: The act of preserving.

Preserving: 

Maintain (something) in its original or existing state/Retain (a condition or state of affairs).
I'm sorry but that's just wrong.

"To maintain in safety from injury, peril, or harm; protect."

[SubAstris]

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers

Again, so what, it has to be shown in the narrative that he is wrong and knows that he is wrong in order to be considered deceptive

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.

And Shepard sacrificed a whole star system in an attempt to save the galaxy. Is he/she lying about trying to save the galaxy?

Both sides need to sacrifice to win the war. Especially since two of the Reapers' big tactical advantages (Citadel, Alpha Relay) were taken away from them.

Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.

Again, they probably aren't going to harvest every last soul in the galaxy. That's simply inefficient. Besides, you don't need a whole living body to get genetic material from it. You can get that from skin flakes, hair, tissue, blood...

So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!

Or maybe Mac Walters just got carried away with using that kid. He was shoved in your face during the intro scene, and then again in the dream sequence. Also kind of like how he gets carried away with Liara. ME: Genesis which he wrote was a Liara slobber fest, and as lead-writer of this game, she got far more attention than anyone else.

The Catalyst may as well have been in Liara form, it would no different than what it is now: bad writing, nothing more.

Bottom-o-page'd.

So TEH ANGRY WUN!11 () can find it.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
Preservation: The act of preserving.

Preserving: 

Maintain (something) in its original or existing state/Retain (a condition or state of affairs).
I'm sorry but that's just wrong.

"To maintain in safety from injury, peril, or harm; protect."

I'm pretty sure they do that when they MELT ME INTO A PASTE.

[SubAstris]

kaotician wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

Well, I guesss we have to presume that he needs to take some form or other in order to talk to us, but a human child? It's clearly on some level a deception, to me.

Why not? It is something from Shepard's memory who we don't know the backstory of very well. BW could either create a completely image (and then have to worry about how that would be designed), or reuse an existing one which would do the job adequately

[Izhalezan]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
Preservation: The act of preserving.

Preserving: 

Maintain (something) in its original or existing state/Retain (a condition or state of affairs).
I'm sorry but that's just wrong.

"To maintain in safety from injury, peril, or harm; protect."

It still kinda sends em out to harvest where they can possibly be killed, I don't call that safety, how many species "died" just so ours can be harvested?

[jla0644]

The Angry One wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

You've stated in other posts in this thread that your whole point was to present this as an example of bad writing, that you realize the story doesn't give us any other choice but to believe what it is saying. I agree with you on this part.

But why are you trying so hard to prove that it was "deliberately lying"? Are you saying it was purposefully written that way, to serve as a clue not to trust it? And if so, what happens next? You've proven it's lying to you, now what? If you're not an Indoctrination Theorist, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. We already knew the scene was horribly written.

Because it's glossing over an obvious fact. Whether it was intentionally written that way or not, that is what it's doing.
It can't possibly not be aware of the billions of beings it is exterminating, therefore it is lying.

We see all those dead bodies on the Citadel and are led to believe they are waiting to be processed, so death doesn't necessarily preclude "ascension". And yes I'm sure it's perfectly aware that it's solution results in death. Every husk, cannibal, marauder, etc, is a dead person. Every person processed to make a new Reaper is a dead person. The Catalyst doesn't care. It's goal is to harvest and store organic life. Where we see death, it sees preservation.

But again, I just don't see the point in trying to prove it's lying, unless you believe in the IT and you want to prove it's trying to indoctrinate you. You'll get no argument from me if you're just trying to prove it's a poorly written scene. But if that's your point, then it's not "deliberately lying", it's just written badly.

[SubAstris]

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Not to state the obvious, but he also represents himself as ahuman child. Is he? No, he's not. Is he therefore lying? If I represent myself to you in a way that deceives you into believing certain things about me, am I lying? Yes. Therefore, is the catalyst a liar? Yes. Absolutely.

No. The Catalyst doesn't have a form in which he can interact with Shepard naturally. He therefore has to adopt the form of another for practical purposes. This doesn't mean he is deceptive, in fact I would say the opposite.

That's weak tea.  The Catalyst could have indeed chosen any form and settled on one desigend to affect Shepard's state of mind by inclining Shepard favorably towards it.  That's deception.  Just as it would be if it chose to assume the form of Admirals Hackett or Anderson, or Liara, or Garrus, etc.

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work. You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I'm pretty sure they do that when they MELT ME INTO A PASTE.

The Reapers are sentient so, clearly, something survives where it wouldn't if other synthetics were doing it.

[Grimwick]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Now, when Shepard states that the Reapers are killing organics, the Catalyst replies with a flat "No."
Reapers do not kill organics, they ascend and preserve them in Reaper form. It entirely dodges the fact that it murders other beings without "ascending" them.

And Shepard sacrificed a whole star system in an attempt to save the galaxy. Is he/she lying about trying to save the galaxy?

Both sides need to sacrifice to win the war. Especially since two of the Reapers' big tactical advantages (Citadel, Alpha Relay) were taken away from them.

The difference being that the reapers aren't fighting a war with anyone but the organics they are trying to 'preserve'.
It's not a 'necessary evil/cost' it's really not.
Also ignores the point that the reapers obliterate smaller cities as a waste of time - that's hardly a necessary sacrifice.

Most blatantly, it takes the form of Vent Boy. Vent Boy, if you need any reminders, was blown up in a shuttle by a Reaper laser. No ascension to Reaper form, but vaporised in a fireball.

Again, they probably aren't going to harvest every last soul in the galaxy. That's simply inefficient. Besides, you don't need a whole living body to get genetic material from it. You can get that from skin flakes, hair, tissue, blood...

Because that's preserving isn't it... /sarcasm off

So really, how is the Catalyst at all believable when it not only lies to your face, it also flaunts the proof that it's lying in front of you for the entire scene!

Or maybe Mac Walters just got carried away with using that kid. He was shoved in your face during the intro scene, and then again in the dream sequence. Also kind of like how he gets carried away with Liara. ME: Genesis which he wrote was a Liara slobber fest, and as lead-writer of this game, she got far more attention than anyone else.

The Catalyst may as well have been in Liara form, it would no different than what it is now: bad writing, nothing more.

Liara is completely irrelevant for a start. Nice red herring.

Also would like to point out that even if 'he just got carried away with it' it still doesn't matter. That doesn't really answer the question "why should we believe him?".

[Vigilant111]

SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers

Again, so what, it has to be shown in the narrative that he is wrong and knows that he is wrong in order to be considered deceptive

What kind of logic is this??? but u already said it does not know it is wrong, it is only organic's POV that there actions are wrong, proof of wrong is not relevant here

The Catalyst is being deceptive for self-interests only, it wants continued existence to exert influence... to keep their grip, to make sure that there is no more this so-called chaos

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
I'm pretty sure they do that when they MELT ME INTO A PASTE.

The Reapers are sentient so, clearly, something survives where it wouldn't if other synthetics were doing it.

It's like Frankenstein's Monster.

It's a combination of bodies.

It is NOT me.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
Preservation: The act of preserving.

Preserving: 

Maintain (something) in its original or existing state/Retain (a condition or state of affairs).
I'm sorry but that's just wrong.

"To maintain in safety from injury, peril, or harm; protect."

Ok now that is utter nonsense as a reposte.

Safe from injury? No. They are dead/liquified.

Safe from peril? They pretty much CAUSED the peril of the organics they are 'helping'. So no.

Safe from harm? Wow no.

Protect? Nope, they are killing them. Nice protection they've got going there.

[lillitheris]

jla0644 wrote...

We see all those dead bodies on the Citadel and are led to believe they are waiting to be processed, so death doesn't necessarily preclude "ascension".

Death does necessarily preclude ‘ascension’. The idea that flesh paste actually retains a consciousness — which, for humans, I once again point out consists of connections of neurons — is absurd.

This is beside the point, but at best each Reaper could certainly retain genetic traits of the victims, even to the point of being able to create new life, but there’s no gestalt consciousness, just a Reaper with potentially some jumble of “racial memories” pieced together in some arbitrary manner.

The Reapers themselves seem to be some type of synthetic intelligences.

Modifié par lillitheris, 05 juin 2012 - 04:11 .

[General User]

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...
If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work.

If your work is as a con man.

SubAstris wrote...
You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

I don't ordinarily submit myself to my archenemy and have them decide my fate at home either.

[soldo9149]

The Angry One wrote...

I bet Harby and Sovvy are banging their heads against the wall thinking "All we had to do was take the form of a 10 year old boy and Shepard would've bought everything we said!?"

On ascension, while for the sake of discussion I'm assuming it to be literal just to show that even if it is, the Catalyst is still lying, it is actually just sugar-coating genocide.
Real life war criminals have done this too. It's propaganda, to make these vile acts of torture and murder seem acceptable to the gullible among us (i.e. Shepard).

that first part was win.

[SubAstris]

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina

So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers

Again, so what, it has to be shown in the narrative that he is wrong and knows that he is wrong in order to be considered deceptive

What kind of logic is this??? but u already said it does not know it is wrong, it is only organic's POV that there actions are wrong, proof of wrong is not relevant here

The Catalyst is being deceptive for self-interests only, it wants continued existence to exert influence... to keep their grip, to make sure that there is no more this so-called chaos

By "wrong" I really meant he is hiding something

Again speculation at the end

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's like Frankenstein's Monster.

It's a combination of bodies.

It is NOT me.

Maybe so but it is still a preservation of organics since the alternative is extinction at synthetic hands. Depending on the perspective, something surviving is better than nothing at all.
This goes for you too, grimwick, BTW.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's like Frankenstein's Monster.

It's a combination of bodies.

It is NOT me.

Maybe so but it is still a preservation of organics since the alternative is extinction at synthetic hands. Depending on the perspective, something surviving is better than nothing at all.
This goes for you too, grimwick, BTW.

He is presenting a logical fallacy.

An appeal to probability is fallacious.

FALLACIOUS.