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Those who say the Catalyst is trustworthy: Explain why the Catalyst lies.


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#201
SubAstris

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General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...
If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work.

If your work is as a con man.

SubAstris wrote...
You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

I don't ordinarily submit myself to my archenemy and have them decide my fate at home either.


Don't try and dodge the point.

#202
jla0644

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lillitheris wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

We see all those dead bodies on the Citadel and are led to believe they are waiting to be processed, so death doesn't necessarily preclude "ascension".


Death does necessarily preclude ‘ascension’. The idea that flesh paste actually retains a consciousness — which, for humans, I once again point out consists of connections of neurons — is absurd.


Don't believe I ever said they retain consciousness. If you read the rest of the post you'd see I said any person processed into a new Reaper is dead. The word ascension is in quotes for a reason.

#203
Grimwick

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MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's like Frankenstein's Monster.

It's a combination of bodies.

It is NOT me.

Maybe so but it is still a preservation of organics since the alternative is extinction at synthetic hands. Depending on the perspective, something surviving is better than nothing at all.
This goes for you too, grimwick, BTW.


None of the original organic matter is preserved in the reapers so overall nothing survives.

They use organics as building materials, they don't preserve them at all.

#204
Taboo

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Yeah, I'd rather be wiped out than be preserved by a Reaper.

I'd rather die.

#205
Peranor

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"Why hello there good sir, I've been commanding the reapers, your enemy for the past several years as they attempt to wipe out all organic life. I'm now going to stand here and explain why it would be a really bad idea to destroy them and you're going to believe EVERY WORD I SAY"

#206
Vigilant111

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SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina


So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers


Again, so what, it has to be shown in the narrative that he is wrong and knows that he is wrong in order to be considered deceptive


What kind of logic is this??? but u already said it does not know it is wrong, it is only organic's POV that there actions are wrong, proof of wrong is not relevant here

The Catalyst is being deceptive for self-interests only, it wants continued existence to exert influence... to keep their grip, to make sure that there is no more this so-called chaos


By "wrong" I really meant he is hiding something

Again speculation at the end


Well then it is also speculation that Catalyst could be trusted

#207
Wulfram

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kaotician wrote...

No. My point is not that the deception succeeds or fails, it's that the Catalyst tries to deceive at all in the first place, by crassly represnting itself to us as something analogous to a human child - one it's lifted from Shepard's mind, and had killed too, as it happens. Whether the catalyst is succesful as a liar was not I think the question, it was whether he was per se a liar. 


If it was attempting to decieve you into believing it was a human child, it wouldn't have introduced itself as the Citadel.  And it would have probably done something about the whole glowing thing.

It may have been attempting to manipulate you - though I don't really see how appearing as the kid benefits it, if anything he's picked a form likely to ****** Shepard off - but that's not deception.  It's a normal part of communication, to attempt to present yourself and your opinions in a way that makes them appear convincing.  If I go to a job interview in a nice suit, clean shaven and with tidy hair, am I decieving them by not appearing as the slob that I truly am?

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 juin 2012 - 04:16 .


#208
Guest_Nyoka_*

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You can argue about preserving species, but it was clear the reapers were going to wipe out every other spacefaring species not "worthy" of ascension, namely, the asari, the turians, the salarians, the quarians, the krogan, the hanar, etc.

Sovereign said as much. Organic civilizations rise, advance, and at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished ... you will end because we demand it ... we are the end of everything.

#209
SubAstris

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Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Deception
is a very strong word and unfortunately not very apt. He plays the role of an
informer, telling you why the Reapers do what they do and about the three
options. For that role, you wouldn't really expect him to adopt the character
of TIM or someone hostile to Shepard. He is akin to the form of Avina


So it is an informer so what?, it is still the representative of the reapers


Again, so what, it has to be shown in the narrative that he is wrong and knows that he is wrong in order to be considered deceptive


What kind of logic is this??? but u already said it does not know it is wrong, it is only organic's POV that there actions are wrong, proof of wrong is not relevant here

The Catalyst is being deceptive for self-interests only, it wants continued existence to exert influence... to keep their grip, to make sure that there is no more this so-called chaos


It is not for one to prove his statements, they are as they are, but to show he is infact deceptive and not just have an inkling that he might be

By "wrong" I really meant he is hiding something

Again speculation at the end


Well then it is also speculation that Catalyst could be trusted



#210
lillitheris

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jla0644 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

We see all those dead bodies on the Citadel and are led to believe they are waiting to be processed, so death doesn't necessarily preclude "ascension".


Death does necessarily preclude ‘ascension’. The idea that flesh paste actually retains a consciousness — which, for humans, I once again point out consists of connections of neurons — is absurd.


Don't believe I ever said they retain consciousness. If you read the rest of the post you'd see I said any person processed into a new Reaper is dead. The word ascension is in quotes for a reason.


Then you’re merely debating syntax by dancing around both sides of the word ‘preserve’. For the purposes of this discussion, is not sufficient to say that the Catalyst ‘uses its own definition’.

If you agree on my definition of the level of ‘preservation’, that’s one thing…but people are apparently seriously arguing as if each Reaper was a bunch of individuals living happily ever after.



Anyway, I dunno why I’m bothering to argue. There’s no reason to trust the Catalyst even completely disregarding this thread.

Modifié par lillitheris, 05 juin 2012 - 04:23 .


#211
ArchDuck

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Yeah, I'd rather be wiped out than be preserved by a Reaper.

I'd rather die.


Actually they are both the same. Preserved = dead.

Saying a "human" Reaper is preserved humanity is the same as saying a person is the preserved form of the plants/animals their mother ate during pregnancy. Technically correct on certain levels but ulitmately a false argument.

#212
teh DRUMPf!!

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Grimwick wrote...

The difference being that the reapers aren't fighting a war with anyone but the organics they are trying to 'preserve'.
It's not a 'necessary evil/cost' it's really not.
Also ignores the point that the reapers obliterate smaller cities as a waste of time - that's hardly a necessary sacrifice.


No, it's a war. They need to fight for their own survival to ensure their own plans.


Because that's preserving isn't it... /sarcasm off


You can clone with that material IRL. Why couldn't the Reapers do something similar? The whole point is that they upload minds from genetic material to form a "nation" that is a Reaper.


Liara is completely irrelevant for a start. Nice red herring.

Also would like to point out that even if 'he just got carried away with it' it still doesn't matter. That doesn't really answer the question "why should we believe him?".


Writing-off trends in the narrative as "irrelevant" just ensures that you're not going to understand what's going on.

Mac has his obsessions, and he gets carried away. He's obsessed with Liara, got carried away with her. He loves Space Bieber, got carried away with him. He hates politicians, and got carried away with the Cerberus/Udina plot.

Again, the Catalyst as Space Bieber is not some ploy by Harbinger to trick you. It's Mac's bad writing, beleving that the little boy is so cute and endearing, so people would accept their literary device that was the Catalyst.

#213
General User

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SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...
If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work.

If your work is as a con man.

SubAstris wrote...
You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

I don't ordinarily submit myself to my archenemy and have them decide my fate at home either.


Don't try and dodge the point.

I thought the point was that the the Catalyst was untrustwrothy.

#214
Penumbra80

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Grimwick wrote...

None of the original organic matter is preserved in the reapers so overall nothing survives.

They use organics as building materials, they don't preserve them at all.


Legion, who actually interfaced with a Reaper, disagrees with you.  I'd also like to get your opinion on the Virtual Aliens encountered by the Citadel Council.  Are they any less "preserved" since they have no physical bodies?

Modifié par Penumbra80, 05 juin 2012 - 04:23 .


#215
MisterJB

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Grimwick wrote...
None of the original organic matter is preserved in the reapers so overall nothing survives.
They use organics as building materials, they don't preserve them at all.

That is a claim you can't support. We do not know how a Reaper is made beyond the basic "Genetic material + technology = Reaper" nor do we know where their sentience comes from.

Regardless, to the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter whether the Catalyst is right or wrong. Only that it believes in what it does.

#216
Grimwick

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ArchDuck wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yeah, I'd rather be wiped out than be preserved by a Reaper.

I'd rather die.


Actually they are both the same. Preserved = dead.

Saying a "human" Reaper is preserved humanity is the same as saying a person is the preserved form of the plants/animals their mother ate during pregnancy. Technically correct on certain levels but ulitmately a false argument.


That isn't even preservation on a technical level.

Unless you are saying that the breaking down molecules is preservation...

Just sayin'.

#217
Taboo

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A clone is NOT the same.

Who the hell believes that they are?

#218
SubAstris

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General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...
If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work.

If your work is as a con man.

SubAstris wrote...
You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

I don't ordinarily submit myself to my archenemy and have them decide my fate at home either.


Don't try and dodge the point.

I thought the point was that the the Catalyst was untrustwrothy.


Out of interest, what to you would have constituted a completely neutral character?

#219
General User

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Wulfram wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No. My point is not that the deception succeeds or fails, it's that the Catalyst tries to deceive at all in the first place, by crassly represnting itself to us as something analogous to a human child - one it's lifted from Shepard's mind, and had killed too, as it happens. Whether the catalyst is succesful as a liar was not I think the question, it was whether he was per se a liar. 


If it was attempting to decieve you into believing it was a human child, it wouldn't have introduced itself as the Citadel.  And it would have probably done something about the whole glowing thing.

It may have been attempting to manipulate you - though I don't really see how appearing as the kid benefits it, if anything he's picked a form likely to ****** Shepard off - but that's not deception.  It's a normal part of communication, to attempt to present yourself and your opinions in a way that makes them appear convincing.  If I go to a job interview in a nice suit, clean shaven and with tidy hair, am I decieving them by not appearing as the slob that I truly am?

Assuming the semblance of another being (especially one whose death you are responsible for) is most assuredly not part of normal communication.

#220
Taboo

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The form the Catalyst takes is an issue.

He should have been a ball of gas or something.

Or a computer.

Like HAL.

#221
Uncle Jo

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The Angry One wrote...

I bet Harby and Sovvy are banging their heads against the wall thinking "All we had to do was take the form of a 10 year old boy and Shepard would've bought everything we said!?"
*snip*

I lol'd hard.

#222
kaotician

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Wulfram wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No. My point is not that the deception succeeds or fails, it's that the Catalyst tries to deceive at all in the first place, by crassly represnting itself to us as something analogous to a human child - one it's lifted from Shepard's mind, and had killed too, as it happens. Whether the catalyst is succesful as a liar was not I think the question, it was whether he was per se a liar. 


If it was attempting to decieve you into believing it was a human child, it wouldn't have introduced itself as the Citadel.  And it would have probably done something about the whole glowing thing.

It may have been attempting to manipulate you - though I don't really see how appearing as the kid benefits it, if anything he's picked a form likely to ****** Shepard off - but that's not deception.  It's a normal part of communication, to attempt to present yourself and your opinions in a way that makes them appear convincing.  If I go to a job interview in a nice suit, clean shaven and with tidy hair, am I decieving them by not appearing as the slob that I truly am?


The purpose of appearing as a human child specifically means something to the Catalyst, and it must be that the Catalyst thinks it means something to you too. What exactly that is, we're not told in the writing, and can only infer. However, in representing himself in such a way, and via an ulterior or hidden motive, whilst purporting to be otherwise being completely truthful, he shows us that something is not quite true. Further, not only is something not quite true, but he hides that fact of truth from us too. That's deception, in the attempt, for me, and if he's attempting to persuade our cooperation via a deception, then he's seeking something for which his only recourse is an illusion to aid him. And that's a lie, as I see it.

#223
Grimwick

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Penumbra80 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

None of the original organic matter is preserved in the reapers so overall nothing survives.

They use organics as building materials, they don't preserve them at all.


Legion, who actually interfaced with a Reaper, disagrees with you.  I'd also like to get your opinion on the Virtual Aliens encountered by the Citadel Council.  Are they any less "preserved" since they have no physical bodies?


No flesh is actually preserved. We can SEE that when they are liquified. 

Retaining the actual consciousness is also impossible - Legion claims that they all become one linked mind, that's not preservation of an individual consciousness at all. In fact that destroys the consciousness as it changes into another. It's not preserved.

Would like to add that that video doesn't suggest the consciousness' retain their original form at all - therefore doesn't support preservation.

@JB

I do in fact have evidence that nothing is preserved. It's that slimy orange liquid. Also would like to point out that if I don't have 'evidence' as you claim then where is yours that any consciousness is preserved? The default standpoint shows liquification. I'd like to see how liquification maintains the necessary neurone connections to maintain the consciousness in it's original form...

#224
General User

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SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

General User wrote...
If it wanted to assume a neutral form like that of Avina it could have.  Rather it chose a form meant to evoke a sympathetic emotional response.

...Who we know little about it. It is really is akin to putting on a suit to go to work.

If your work is as a con man.

SubAstris wrote...
You wouldn't ordinarily wear a suit at home, but is that really deceptive?

I don't ordinarily submit myself to my archenemy and have them decide my fate at home either.


Don't try and dodge the point.

I thought the point was that the the Catalyst was untrustwrothy.


Out of interest, what to you would have constituted a completely neutral character?

Ideally a disembodied voice.  If the Catalyst truely is the combination of the Crucible and the Citadel than let that be how it represents itself to others.  Should that be impractical, it could take the appearance of a formless apparition.  A talking ball of light, if you will.  A generic humaniod form would also be acceptable.

#225
Temprathe

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Going to make two points here. 1) How the Catalyst lies but, more importantly, 2) Why I personally think it may have been intentional and kind of a "case in point" coming directly from ME1. Note that while I don't think the endings are perfect and needed improvement in several areas, and was let down by the concept of it, i'm not totally against them either.


-Catalyst says that it "preserves" species rather than destroy them.

Vaporizes little boy. And then has the nerve to take his form.

-Says you won't survive if you choose "destroy" because you are partly synthetic.

Shepard takes one breath at the end, so long as certain requirements are met.

-Catalyst says creations will always rebel against their creators.

Sure. Like the Geth, who rebelled against the Quarians. ...After the Quarians realized they could think for themselves and tried to destroy them, at which point the Geth, for some time, refused to even fire back at their creators. Even after driving them from their homeland in self-defense, they spent time rebuilding it FOR their creators. And like the ever-so-rebellious EDI, who, after gaining the ability to make choices on her own, chooses to protect Joker at all costs. Granted, there were rogue AIs in the previous games, but let's face it. The Geth, a feared spacefaring species, is a much more potent example than that one rogue credit-stealing AI hanging out on the Citadel in ME1.

-Says that Shepard can successfully throw his/her consciousness into a pool with every Reaper in the galaxy and control them.

Shepard couldn't stop him/herself from shooting Anderson when the Illusive Man, with a weaker will than Shepard, partially indoctrinates him/her. Go on. Try to control the Reapers. And when you fail, the reaping will continue...without you there to stop it, I'm sure.

-Plays synthesis out to be the best option.

I won't lie and say that this isn't what I chose, although in hindsight, I regret it. It yanks the genetic diversity away from species in an instant, really. And it might just be me, but I don't see how combining synthetics with organics eliminates the need for synthetics. Unless people's processing powers and through the roof to where they can pretty much do everything that the "all-knowing" programs could do, they'll still us AI.

Thing is, it seems that the Catalyst lies or makes some HORRIBLE error in judgement no matter what ending it tells you to pick. Kind of like it's horrible idea to wipe out organics.


Honestly though, I think the whole point is that the Catalyst was lying or was simply WRONG, or both. There were rogue programs in previous games that were self-aware, but they were still just computers in the end. They were wrong. The Catalyst is really nothing more than a program created to do a specific task, and it flipped it and went off the deep end. It's the epitome of WHY venturing into making self-aware synthetics was against galactic law.

Because you eventually get children who think it's cool to wipe out the entire galaxy every 50K years.

Sorry if this has all been said before. Probably has, but thought I'd share my thoughts anyway. Ending is WAY too open for speculation as it is and is very discombobulated, so I'm waiting for EC to see if that's the point they were trying to make.