930 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Unequivocally yes, it was a waste of time.  Human Noble Origin was ridiculously far and away the favorite origin.

And probably one of the prime motivators for DA2's human-only protagonist with a single backround. People just like being human for obvious reasons. It's a shame too because the Dwarf Origins were easily the most interesting and they got the least attention.

I actually wonder what kind of telemetry exists for the romances. Not just for S/S romances, mind you, but what LI's were prefered over their counterparts. I'd like to see the how many male players chose Morrigan over Leliana or vice-versa, for instance.

For S/S romances I bet to an extent it's a case of "If you build it, they will come." I can't imagine Bioware having the female fanbase it has if it didn't have female PC options, as an example. Of course without telemetry for Origins and DA2 romances I can never know for certain. Gaider once said more people use these option than you'd expect and that's all we have to go on.

[AkiKishi]

Blacklash93 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Unequivocally yes, it was a waste of time.  Human Noble Origin was ridiculously far and away the favorite origin.

And probably one of the prime motivators for DA2's human-only protagonist with a single backround. People just like being human for obvious reasons. It's a shame too because the Dwarf Origins were easily the most interesting and they got the least attention.

I actually wonder what kind of telemetry exists for the romances. Not just for S/S romances, mind you, but what LI's were prefered over their counterparts. I'd like to see the how many male players chose Morrigan over Leliana or vice-versa, for instance.

For S/S romances I bet to an extent it's a case of "If you build it, they will come." I can't imagine Bioware having the female fanbase it has if it didn't have female PC options, as an example. Of course without telemetry for Origins and DA2 romances I can never know for certain. Gaider once said more people use these option than you'd expect and that's all we have to go on.

The % of people who actually use the romances are pretty small I think. But kinda fantatical

[syllogi]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

As a old fart,I DON'T CARE who you do.what you do or what you take or toke to do it.
In my games there are no Bi companions as that would mean I'm in control of two main characters of diffrent sex at one time,hitting on the same love intrest at the same time.Since you can only control ONE at a time you're either playing the game straight or gay.Therre is no bi.

Right.  Unless a companion specifically talks about it, like Isabela or Zevran, there's no specific evidence that any NPC except maaaybe Anders is bisexual, they are simply attracted to whatever gender the hero happens to be in any given game.

Why is this a big deal again?  I'd be fine with companions who did have set sexualities and talked about past relationships, but I prefer having as many options as possible for my female player character.  If NPCs talk extensively about other topics, like their families and background and other interesting topics that add to lore, instead of listing every prior sexual partner, how is that making them less compelling characters?

[Blacklash93]

Cultist wrote...
See? That's exactly my point. You are tring to appeal to EVERYONE. And as a result - Dragon Age 2, shallow characters without individuality, all-bi,all-accepting, all-supporting even after Hawke will do things they loathe - still supporting. A template companions with different voice and model.
LGTB theme is just a part of this, flawed, in my opinion, approach.

I can't understand this argument to begin with and you're taking it to a moronic extreme.

Shallow without individuality? Can you not tell the difference between characters like Isabela and Merrill? Does sexuality impact personal struggles about stealing religious tomes and preserving historical arifacts while your people hate you for it? Do you see no difference between friendship and rivalry (and how they can effect companions betraying you in the final act)?

The % of people who actually use the romances are pretty small I think. But kinda fantatical

And they're all here on BSN!

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[AkiKishi]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Cultist wrote...
See? That's exactly my point. You are tring to appeal to EVERYONE. And as a result - Dragon Age 2, shallow characters without individuality, all-bi,all-accepting, all-supporting even after Hawke will do things they loathe - still supporting. A template companions with different voice and model.
LGTB theme is just a part of this, flawed, in my opinion, approach.

I can't understand this argument to begin with and you're taking it to a moronic extreme.

Shallow without individuality? Can you not tell the difference between characters like Isabela and Merrill? Does sexuality impact personal struggles about stealing religious tomes and preserving historical arifacts while your people hate you for it? Do you see no difference between friendship and rivalry (and how they can effect companions betraying you in the final act)?

I kind of agree with him. In order to write a herosexual character it can't be too defined. Zevren and Leliana are much better, but making the whole party bi would  just be odd.

[Ihatebadgames]

LIs are like chewing gum in class.Did BioWare bring enough for everyone?

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I kind of agree with him. In order to write a herosexual character it can't be too defined. Zevren and Leliana are much better, but making the whole party bi would  just be odd.

I continue to see Leliana and Zevran brought up as examples of "defined" characters but all I see are two characters who happen to talk about their pasts. Seems you can call them hero-sexual as well since they are available LI options for the PC, and cannot be romanced by other characters in-game.

Again, just because someone doesn't discuss their lovelife does not make him/her any less defined. It represents an area/subject matter that characteristically he/she may not feel comfortable or willing to talk about.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 08 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Again, just because someone doesn't discuss their lovelife does not make him/her any less defined. It represents an area/subject matter that characteristically he/she may not feel comfortable or willing to talk about.

That's really just a cop-out.

[Blacklash93]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I kind of agree with him. In order to write a herosexual character it can't be too defined. Zevren and Leliana are much better, but making the whole party bi would  just be odd.

That's not what I was getting at. Sexuality was irrelevant to the conflicts and struggles these characters faced. Other than romances I'd say that all these characters were just as defined as the characters were in Origins. They were still all very defined and diverse personalities.

And his assertion to cut all LGBT content in Bioware games isn't helping his approach seem reasonable.

LIs are like chewing gum in class.Did BioWare bring enough for everyone?

This is an issue about sharing LIs and not making X amount to appeal to everyone. The better question is: Do you like to share gum?

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 juin 2012 - 06:28 .

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's really just a cop-out.

How so? If you look at people in your day-to-day, can you say that everyone you encounter is willing to discuss who they have been attracted to, who they have romanced, etc and so forth? Don't people have different comfort levels for all manner of topics and personal business? Why can't the same tendencies be applied to written characters? Isn't thta something that makes them more "realistic" and viable - the fact that they have different feelings on what should or should not be discussed? I don't recall Aveline bringing up much about her past, even when pressed about Wesley. Was she not written well? Is she less viable because she wasn't so chatty?

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's really just a cop-out.

How so? If you look at people in your day-to-day, can you say that everyone you encounter is willing to discuss who they have been attracted to, who they have romanced, etc and so forth? Don't people have different comfort levels for all manner of topics and personal business? Why can't the same tendencies be applied to written characters? Isn't thta something that makes them more "realistic" and viable - the fact that they have different feelings on what should or should not be discussed? I don't recall Aveline bringing up much about her past, even when pressed about Wesley. Was she not written well? Is she less viable because she wasn't so chatty?

We are talking about LI's

[Blacklash93]

BobSmith101 wrote...
We are talking about LI's

People usually don't like to talk about exes even within a current intimate relationship, among other things.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Ryzaki]

So what...the LI's are supposed to give you their whole background and life story even when it's none of the PC's business?

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

We are talking about LI's

What I wrote applies to any character. Isabela talks about her past. Fenris does not. Does that make Fenris less defined? All it means is that he has not discussed his love life. I know a lot about who he is and what he believes from dialogue and taking the time to engage in conversations when the opportunity presented itself. Just because I didn't hear who he has bedded doesn't take away from his core character. Just because I didn't get the juicy details about that one singular aspect of his private life doesn't make him any less of a character. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 08 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Ryzaki wrote...

So what...the LI's are supposed to give you their whole background and life story even when it's none of the PC's business?

Yes, characters are the window into the game world. Players don't know what it's like to be a gay elf in the world of Thedas.

[AkiKishi]

Begemotka wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
We are talking about LI's

People usually don't like to talk about exes even within a current intimate relationship, among other things.

I would agree with Blacklash93 on this one - I mean....do we exchange a written list of exes at the beginning of a new relationship? I myself would run the other way,FTL speed,and so would never put anyone under such pressure....

As I pointed out people we date in real life live in the same world as we do. In a game world the character serves the purpose of defining how that world might be different from ours.

I really don't care about a bunch of pixels, but I do care about the insight that they might provide into the world.

[Ryzaki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So what...the LI's are supposed to give you their whole background and life story even when it's none of the PC's business?

Yes, characters are the window into the game world. Players don't know what it's like to be a gay elf in the world of Thedas.

You owe me a new keyboard.

I hope that was a joke if not that's yeah...

If realism is what you're after people telling you all their business isn't reality. Not unless they have boundary issues.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[hoorayforicecream]

BobSmith101 wrote...

As I pointed out people we date in real life live in the same world as we do. In a game world the character serves the purpose of defining how that world might be different from ours.

I really don't care about a bunch of pixels, but I do care about the insight that they might provide into the world.

I want them to be people first, and windows of insight into the world second. If they behave in a way that I find detrimental to my verisimilitude of them as people for the sake of providing more insight into the world, I would not be happy. I suppose this is a place where you should recognize that others just don't share your opinion.

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

iakus wrote...
But I think we'd get more bang for our buck that way

ba-dum-TISH!

Believe it or not, that's totally not what I meant!

[Iakus]

John Epler wrote...

We're not cutting either. In an ideal world, without resource considerations, we'd have more options and have those options would be more varied. I'm not commenting on what approach we might take in the future - I really don't know, as I'm not a writer. But, you know, if allowing an underserved segment of the population more choice is on the table, that's going to be my choice wherever possible.

Choices are always good.  But I also think we can still have an abundance of choices fro everyone without doing a 100% overlap.  It might be cost-effective, but it seems...cheap.

[Blacklash93]

For windows into the game world...

Did anyone else find it odd that you can interrogate people in Origins about their life story all at once with some characters? Morrigan and Zevran were a pool of information even without significant approval ratings and they gave it all without issue when you prolonged these conversations about their childhood and where they grew up and their associations.

Whereas in DA2 you could barely ask them anything about the culture they came from or much of their history. Isabela would say nothing of Rivain and Fenris mostly gave details about Tevinter we already knew.

It's probably best to have a balance. Make it so these characters are actual characters first and foremost, but create more situations where it makes sense they would give information about their history and culture.

[brushyourteeth]

Since things in here seem pretty civil, could I share a suggestion?

Some of you have seen me bring this up before but things at the time were too heated for me to really guage if anyone else thought this was a workable idea or not.

Would it be acceptable to have one LI in DAIII have a predefined sexual preference but still find (for the first time) that they're attracted to the protagonist even if he/she is not the gender they've always preferred?

for instance: Templar Joe has always been into women, but upon meeting Mr. Awesome in DAIII he finds, to his surprise, that he's actually attracted to a man for the first time. Awkward/cute dialogue ensues. If the protagonist is actually a Miss awesome instead of a Mr., Templar Joe goes on being attracted to women as always and falls in love.

Would that work for everyone? This way we accept that in Thedas it's not abnormal, shameful, or taboo to be bi but homosexuality and heterosexuality are still acknowledged as a potential lifestyle as well. Plus cute "uhm... well, I want to, but I've just never really done this before" conversations ensue.

Thus the "hero"sexuality of the NPC is addressed, but in a way that makes sense and maybe even brings a new element of interest to the relationship.

*edited for grammar

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 juin 2012 - 07:59 .