930 réponses à ce sujet

[John Epler]

iakus wrote...

John Epler wrote...

We're not cutting either. In an ideal world, without resource considerations, we'd have more options and have those options would be more varied. I'm not commenting on what approach we might take in the future - I really don't know, as I'm not a writer. But, you know, if allowing an underserved segment of the population more choice is on the table, that's going to be my choice wherever possible.

Choices are always good.  But I also think we can still have an abundance of choices fro everyone without doing a 100% overlap.  It might be cost-effective, but it seems...cheap.

In this case, unfortunately, it's either 'more choice' or 'more 'realistic' characters for some'. Were we to have unlimited resources, we'd likely do more on the sexuality spectrum, but a companion is a not-insignificant expenditure of resources. This has been true since at least DA:O for cinematic design, and I imagine true for writing for even longer before that.

In the end, not everyone agrees that having all the love interests be able to be romanced by either gender is hugely immersion breaking, and given the choice between 'more LI choices' and 'less immersion breaking for some', we're likely to fall on the side of the former. That's not to say that, as we find time-saving techniques, we might not start experimenting with companion rosters that have a greater variety on the human sexuality spectrum, but for the time being this is the decision we've come to as the best possible use of resources.

[joshko]

John Epler wrote...



In the end, not everyone agrees that having all the love interests be able to be romanced by either gender is hugely immersion breaking, and given the choice between 'more LI choices' and 'less immersion breaking for some', we're likely to fall on the side of the former. That's not to say that, as we find time-saving techniques, we might not start experimenting with companion rosters that have a greater variety on the human sexuality spectrum, but for the time being this is the decision we've come to as the best possible use of resources.

I think this is the best path as well. Personally I take the immersion side, but it is what it is, if somethings have to be sacrifced to make the game as a whole better I would say this is definately one of the more reasonable comprimises.

[Iakus]

John Epler wrote...

In the end, not everyone agrees that having all the love interests be able to be romanced by either gender is hugely immersion breaking, and given the choice between 'more LI choices' and 'less immersion breaking for some', we're likely to fall on the side of the former. That's not to say that, as we find time-saving techniques, we might not start experimenting with companion rosters that have a greater variety on the human sexuality spectrum, but for the time being this is the decision we've come to as the best possible use of resources.

This sorta leads to another question of mine:

How about LIs that aren't companions?

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius.

 I mean, virtually all the romance scenes and dialogue takes place at the PC's home base anyway, be it the old Amell manor, a campsite, or a stealth frigate.  Would it be feasible to have some LIs that the character comes home to, rather than fights alongside?  I don't know what if anything that would do with resource expenditure, but it would help keep companion rosters to a manageable level, wouldn't it?

Modifié par iakus, 08 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[John Epler]

iakus wrote...

John Epler wrote...

In the end, not everyone agrees that having all the love interests be able to be romanced by either gender is hugely immersion breaking, and given the choice between 'more LI choices' and 'less immersion breaking for some', we're likely to fall on the side of the former. That's not to say that, as we find time-saving techniques, we might not start experimenting with companion rosters that have a greater variety on the human sexuality spectrum, but for the time being this is the decision we've come to as the best possible use of resources.

This sorta leads to another question of mine:

How about LIs that aren't companions?

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius.

 I mean, virtually all the romance scenes and dialogue takes place at the PC's home base anyway, be it the old Amell manor, a campsite, or a stealth frigate.  Would it be feasible to have some LIs that the character comes home to, rather than fights alongside?  I don't know what if anything that would do with resource expenditure, but it would help keep companion rosters to a manageable level, wouldn't it?

That'd be up to the writers, but I'm certainly not against it.

I imagine (and I may be wrong, as I'm not a writer) that part of why we didn't really do much of this with either DA game is that there aren't really any characters that you spend nearly as much time with as you do your companions. Mass Effect is a little different - you're on the Normandy, and being in close quarters with all of these various people (crew, tag-alongs, etc.) means that you're going to develop a close connection to them.

Now, if we had it set up so that we could somehow place the PC in this same sort situation in DA (ship, a permanent base, etc.), that might be a little easier to pull off. Like I said - I like the idea of 'light' romances, although I will say that, from a resource standpoint, romances tend to be the most expensive things to do for companion characters - so the same would hold true for non-companions. But again - it's something I liked in ME2, and which they expanded on in ME3.

Short answer? I don't see why we couldn't do that, although it's ultimately up to the story the writers want to tell.

[Kidd]

Is it really that much more resource friendly to make a non-combatant available though?

I mean of course there is no need to flesh out their game play and equipment and things like that, but if we were to for instance - using DA2 examples - make Varric an LI, the added romance content would be just as costy as if Cullen was an LI, right?

Cullen would still need new scenes animated and voiced, just like Varric would. Hence the LI-ness of them both is just as expensive, no? Or am I completely off track here? I've never worked with you guys to get the real world know-how

EDIT: Swapped examples. Cullen is far less creepy to read about than Gamlen =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 08 juin 2012 - 08:06 .

[John Epler]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Is it really that much more resource friendly to make a non-combatant available though?

I mean of course there is no need to flesh out their game play and equipment and things like that, but if we were to for instance - using DA2 examples - make Varric an LI, the added romance content would be just as costy as if Cullen was an LI, right?

Cullen would still need new scenes animated and voiced, just like Varric would. Hence the LI-ness of them both is just as expensive, no? Or am I completely off track here? I've never worked with you guys to get the real world know-how

EDIT: Swapped examples. Cullen is far less creepy to read about than Gamlen =)

Well, from a strictly technical sense, no. The animation work and such would be just as complicated either way.

But for an LI to feel 'good', you need character development. With companions, a lot of that is already handled - you adventure with them, and so there are a lot of opportunities to get to know them organically, through their interactions with the world and with the people in it.

With a non-companion, though, you have to either build content specifically for them (side quests, etc.), or you have to shoe-horn a lot more characterization and development into those in-camp dialogues. Or, you make them a 'light' option. You won't know as much about them as your companions, but that's not necessarily a barrier to romance - thus the concept of 'light' romances versus 'full' romances.

[Iakus]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Is it really that much more resource friendly to make a non-combatant available though?

I mean of course there is no need to flesh out their game play and equipment and things like that, but if we were to for instance - using DA2 examples - make Varric an LI, the added romance content would be just as costy as if Cullen was an LI, right?

Cullen would still need new scenes animated and voiced, just like Varric would. Hence the LI-ness of them both is just as expensive, no? Or am I completely off track here? I've never worked with you guys to get the real world know-how

EDIT: Swapped examples. Cullen is far less creepy to read about than Gamlen =)

Thank you for swapping the two out 

My thought was if creating so many companions was part of expanding the number of LIs unfeasible, that maybe the number of LIs could be expanded by looking beyond companions.

For example, if Cullen was made a LI without being a companions, there would still need to be scenes and dialogue done for him with the PC, but there wouldn't be a need for combat animations, or companion banter, or mission dialogue from him.  If he was made a full companion, he'd have to have everything that a companion gets, romanced or no.

[Ryzaki]

But he'd still need to have character development (especially if you had him romance a female mage) and such. In addition to those cutscenes, the extra voiced lines, some sort of impact on the PC (because to me what's the point in them being an LI if they don't talk to you about the plot like the companions do at points), and other things I've forgotten.

Where's a companion could potentially simply be doing double duty. They do all those things Cullen would do in additional, already. They already make comments during missions, you got a very good glimpse of their personality during banter and dialogue, you get a vision of the kind of person they are, who they're friends, who they aren't and so on. They might STILL be an companion even if they weren't an LI. In which case Cullen's need for extra character development instead of the brief snips we get becomes resource consuming.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2012 - 08:20 .

[Cutlass Jack]

iakus wrote...

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius. 

Unfortunately the character that fits that role best in the DA series is Sandal.

*fade to black* "Enchantment!"

[Ryzaki]

How old is Sandal anyway?

But honestly no. That would make my PC feel like a child molester.

[LolaLei]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Since things in here seem pretty civil, could I share a suggestion?

Some of you have seen me bring this up before but things at the time were too heated for me to really guage if anyone else thought this was a workable idea or not.

Would it be acceptable to have one LI in DAIII have a predefined sexual preference but still find (for the first time) that they're attracted to the protagonist even if he/she is not the gender they've always preferred?

for instance: Templar Joe has always been into women, but upon meeting Mr. Awesome in DAIII he finds, to his surprise, that he's actually attracted to a man for the first time. Awkward/cute dialogue ensues. If the protagonist is actually a Miss awesome instead of a Mr., Templar Joe goes on being attracted to women as always and falls in love.

Would that work for everyone? This way we accept that in Thedas it's not abnormal, shameful, or taboo to be bi but homosexuality and heterosexuality are still acknowledged as a potential lifestyle as well. Plus cute "uhm... well, I want to, but I've just never really done this before" conversations ensue.

Thus the "hero"sexuality of the NPC is addressed, but in a way that makes sense and maybe even brings a new element of interest to the relationship.

*edited for grammar

THIS!

Because then everyone gets to romance him/her and it's still in keeping with the story, with a good explaination as to why he/she fancies a member of the same sex all of a sudden.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

How old is Sandal anyway?

But honestly no. That would make my PC feel like a child molester.

How about Bodahn then?

Seems like a decent guy, provides for his family 

Modifié par iakus, 08 juin 2012 - 08:28 .

[LolaLei]

Ryzaki wrote...

But he'd still need to have character development (especially if you had him romance a female mage) and such. In addition to those cutscenes, the extra voiced lines, some sort of impact on the PC (because to me what's the point in them being an LI if they don't talk to you about the plot like the companions do at points), and other things I've forgotten.

Where's a companion could potentially simply be doing double duty. They do all those things Cullen would do in additional, already. They already make comments during missions, you got a very good glimpse of their personality during banter and dialogue, you get a vision of the kind of person they are, who they're friends, who they aren't and so on. They might STILL be an companion even if they weren't an LI. In which case Cullen's need for extra character development instead of the brief snips we get becomes resource consuming.

Oooor they could just make Cullen a companion/LI in DA3 lol. WIN!

[Deviija]

Companions as LIs just works in so many more ways, and covers so many bases (financial, technical, scripting, writing, character development, animation) far more easily than making new content and new items specifically for a side-character. Any way one cuts it, these side characters would still require development and content of their own. Might as well just take that romance content and put it onto a companion instead, since that companion already is getting character development in front of the PC, and is interwoven in the plot and interpersonal relationships of the rest of the companions and the greater world.

Cullen, as the example is being used, did get quite a bit of content for a 'side' character, but there was no real depth that a companion gets. He was also used for a mouthpiece of the Templars, and as an official link to the Templars (all strictly duty-chat and quest-official chat). No real reason to want to be his LI, other than the fact that we, as players, may know him and his storyline from two games. So more content would be required, imo. But that chunk of money, time, energy, animation, voice acting, sexytime scene'ing, could be better spent given to a companion, making them romanceable, instead.

LolaLei wrote...


Oooor they could just make Cullen a companion/LI in DA3 lol. WIN!

 

That works.  

Modifié par Deviija, 08 juin 2012 - 08:32 .

[Kidd]

John Epler wrote...

With a non-companion, though, you have to either build content specifically for them (side quests, etc.), or you have to shoe-horn a lot more characterization and development into those in-camp dialogues. Or, you make them a 'light' option. You won't know as much about them as your companions, but that's not necessarily a barrier to romance - thus the concept of 'light' romances versus 'full' romances.

I suppose that makes sense, yes =) I'm not sure I'm necessarily a fan of the idea of "light" romances, but now I understand what you meant =)

brushyourteeth wrote...

for instance: Templar Joe has always been into women, but upon meeting Mr. Awesome in DAIII he finds, to his surprise, that he's actually attracted to a man for the first time. Awkward/cute dialogue ensues. If the protagonist is actually a Miss awesome instead of a Mr., Templar Joe goes on being attracted to women as always and falls in love.

Would that work for everyone? This way we accept that in Thedas it's not abnormal, shameful, or taboo to be bi but homosexuality and heterosexuality are still acknowledged as a potential lifestyle as well. Plus cute "uhm... well, I want to, but I've just never really done this before" conversations ensue.

I had missed this since it was the last post on the former page >_> Go me!

It sounds great in theory, it really does. But it might be slightly expensive, dunno just how much though. Basically, it's like you say, you need extra lines to show the whole "wow this has never happened before"-ness of it all. But that pretty much needs to be more than just one or two lines to feel believable as well. I mean, wouldn't it feel odd if we went straight from "Oh wow I never thought I'd feel this way about a... man. I'm sorry, this is all new to me, I didn't know that I could..." to "normal" LI dialogue real soon after?

Unless all the LIs are written as Merrill-esque characters who feel quite flustered about the aspect of dating any one regardless of gender, I have a hard time seeing how it wouldn't essentially make each LI function like two LIs. And that's expensive, I think.

Not to mention there's a certain risk that five games from now, when we boot up a potential future DA7 or other BioWare RPG, we'll feel quite sick of so many of the S/S LIs going on about how it's their first time (imagining a potential issue with the idea itself there, of course we wouldn't really notice such a thing in DA3 since it's new there though).

Of course, I might be exaggarating how many extra lines this would take. But at least for myself, I feel it'd be a real challenge to write a believable series of companion dialogues with such an intro to the romance without devoting a lot of time to it. I imagine it's not a coincidence that the most "oh wow this is so new to me" bi LI I can come up with right now is Liara, whose romance arc double times for gender and species alike. Of course, I could be wrong.

[nightcobra]

John Epler wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Is it really that much more resource friendly to make a non-combatant available though?

I mean of course there is no need to flesh out their game play and equipment and things like that, but if we were to for instance - using DA2 examples - make Varric an LI, the added romance content would be just as costy as if Cullen was an LI, right?

Cullen would still need new scenes animated and voiced, just like Varric would. Hence the LI-ness of them both is just as expensive, no? Or am I completely off track here? I've never worked with you guys to get the real world know-how

EDIT: Swapped examples. Cullen is far less creepy to read about than Gamlen =)

Well, from a strictly technical sense, no. The animation work and such would be just as complicated either way.

But for an LI to feel 'good', you need character development. With companions, a lot of that is already handled - you adventure with them, and so there are a lot of opportunities to get to know them organically, through their interactions with the world and with the people in it.

With a non-companion, though, you have to either build content specifically for them (side quests, etc.), or you have to shoe-horn a lot more characterization and development into those in-camp dialogues. Or, you make them a 'light' option. You won't know as much about them as your companions, but that's not necessarily a barrier to romance - thus the concept of 'light' romances versus 'full' romances.

....how's the empress of orlais these days?

if DA3 had a few quests in which you meet the empress and have some quests related to her, i wouldn't mind the opportunity on trying my luck to become the emperor:innocent:

what can i say? i like women who are on top, i mean, at the top of the status chain.......phew, almost channeled my inner oghren there:P

[brushyourteeth]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

for instance: Templar Joe has always been into women, but upon meeting Mr. Awesome in DAIII he finds, to his surprise, that he's actually attracted to a man for the first time. Awkward/cute dialogue ensues. If the protagonist is actually a Miss awesome instead of a Mr., Templar Joe goes on being attracted to women as always and falls in love.

Would that work for everyone? This way we accept that in Thedas it's not abnormal, shameful, or taboo to be bi but homosexuality and heterosexuality are still acknowledged as a potential lifestyle as well. Plus cute "uhm... well, I want to, but I've just never really done this before" conversations ensue.

I had missed this since it was the last post on the former page >_> Go me!

It sounds great in theory, it really does. But it might be slightly expensive, dunno just how much though. Basically, it's like you say, you need extra lines to show the whole "wow this has never happened before"-ness of it all. But that pretty much needs to be more than just one or two lines to feel believable as well. I mean, wouldn't it feel odd if we went straight from "Oh wow I never thought I'd feel this way about a... man. I'm sorry, this is all new to me, I didn't know that I could..." to "normal" LI dialogue real soon after?

Unless all the LIs are written as Merrill-esque characters who feel quite flustered about the aspect of dating any one regardless of gender, I have a hard time seeing how it wouldn't essentially make each LI function like two LIs. And that's expensive, I think.

Not to mention there's a certain risk that five games from now, when we boot up a potential future DA7 or other BioWare RPG, we'll feel quite sick of so many of the S/S LIs going on about how it's their first time (imagining a potential issue with the idea itself there, of course we wouldn't really notice such a thing in DA3 since it's new there though).

Of course, I might be exaggarating how many extra lines this would take. But at least for myself, I feel it'd be a real challenge to write a believable series of companion dialogues with such an intro to the romance without devoting a lot of time to it. I imagine it's not a coincidence that the most "oh wow this is so new to me" bi LI I can come up with right now is Liara, whose romance arc double times for gender and species alike. Of course, I could be wrong.

You're right - it'd definitely be a challenge as far as having some gender-specific lines - there'd have to be some kind of fluff for the other gender to make up for it. Example:

Conversation with male: "I have to tell you, I've never had anything like this happen before, but I feel like I have a special connection with you. Could you feel the same way about me?"
Conversation with female: "I've met many impressive women before, but no one that makes me feel the way you do."

So the content would, I guess, be exclusive, but nothing as personal as Anders' "Karl was my first" conversation. They both amount to "I'm into you." A comment before they roll in the hay together like "I've known I wanted this since I first saw you" would cover both bases.

And I definitely, definitely agree that it wouldn't work for more than one character or even for more than one or two games. What's new and interesting now can become tired and boring real fast.

**edit**
Just wanted to say thanks for the feedback!  Kind, honest opinions welcome here always.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 juin 2012 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How old is Sandal anyway?

But honestly no. That would make my PC feel like a child molester.

How about Bodahn then?

Seems like a decent guy, provides for his family 

No...just...no.

[Kidd]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Conversation with male: "I have to tell you, I've never had anything like this happen before, but I feel like I have a special connection with you. Could you feel the same way about me?"
Conversation with female: "I've met many impressive women before, but no one that makes me feel the way you do."

Hm, could work. Maybe. But I dunno, I have a hard time seeing it feel real without more content. I've had the "I never knew I could feel blah" thing aimed at me once in the past, and at least in her case, that effected how she acted with me for quite some time. Of course, not everybody is her. I feel I'll have to get off my butt and actually start typing up some scripts to get an idea for myself how difficult this might be to pull off with a minimal amount of lines, myself =)

[Abispa]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How old is Sandal anyway?

But honestly no. That would make my PC feel like a child molester.

How about Bodahn then?

Seems like a decent guy, provides for his family 

No...just...no.

Okay. There's always Orsino. The Grand Cleric. The Keeper. Or What's-his-face, the guy with the mine?

[brushyourteeth]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Conversation with male: "I have to tell you, I've never had anything like this happen before, but I feel like I have a special connection with you. Could you feel the same way about me?"
Conversation with female: "I've met many impressive women before, but no one that makes me feel the way you do."

Hm, could work. Maybe. But I dunno, I have a hard time seeing it feel real without more content. I've had the "I never knew I could feel blah" thing aimed at me once in the past, and at least in her case, that effected how she acted with me for quite some time. Of course, not everybody is her. I feel I'll have to get off my butt and actually start typing up some scripts to get an idea for myself how difficult this might be to pull off with a minimal amount of lines, myself =)

Yeah, there is always the danger that being the new gay guy would become his "gimmick", right? But if I understand correctly, what we all want to go for is a Thedas where who you are isn't strictly determined by what gender you're attracted to. So to that end it wouldn't be something that was talked about all.the.time, because characters in Thedas wouldn't have the same hangups that people in real life today do. Bringing it up just once or maybe twice would be fine, because that's just an interesting detail - not an important part of that character's story arc.

So yeah, not a perfect idea, but one I thought I'd put forward for peer review or whatever.

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How old is Sandal anyway?

But honestly no. That would make my PC feel like a child molester.

How about Bodahn then?

Seems like a decent guy, provides for his family 

No...just...no.

Okay. There's always Orsino. The Grand Cleric. The Keeper. Or What's-his-face, the guy with the mine?

Orsino is workable. The Grand Cleric... also same to the Keeper only decent looking elves in DA2 is Athenia, Fenris and Merrill. Everyone else looks like bleh or something out of a horror movie.

[Iakus]

Well, if this is the way all Bioware romances are going to be nowadays, the only possible compromise I can come up with is do the ME3 "ambiguous line" option for the player.

Sadly, one weakness in Bioware romances has been the tendancy for potential LIs to fling themselves at the player.  I can't tell you how awkward it felt to have Tali practically crawling into my Shepard's lap after doing her loyalty mission.  And turning down LIs more often than not makes the PC sound like a jerk (imo, anyway)  Like calling Silk Fox "you're not that interestin"  In some cases, both.  I've found that if I'm anything short of a jerk to Anders I pretty much have to fend him off with a stick.

ME3 did something that I found rather clever.  At one point, a potential LI gives a line which could be interpreted as a simple gesture of friendship, or could be an invitation for soemthin gmore.  Shepard gets two (very obvious) lines indicating which way you want things to go.  Pick the friendship line, and everything procedes in a totally platonic manner.  It's like romance never entered the equation.  Pick the romance line, and you lock in a romance.  It all felt very natural.  No "heartbreak" necessary.

I for one felt a lot better turning down the Liara romance in ME3 than I did in ME1.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...
Orsino is workable. The Grand Cleric... also same to the Keeper only decent looking elves in DA2 is Athenia, Fenris and Merrill. Everyone else looks like bleh or something out of a horror movie.

So, no Orana in a maid outfit...

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Orsino is workable. The Grand Cleric... also same to the Keeper only decent looking elves in DA2 is Athenia, Fenris and Merrill. Everyone else looks like bleh or something out of a horror movie.

So, no Orana in a maid outfit...

Oh yeah I forget about Orsino.

Maybe he should come along.

Also yes BW needs more "I like being friends." rejections. We should still have the jerk rejections as an option in addition to the ILBF rejection but yeah sometimes a nice rejection is needed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2012 - 09:51 .