930 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

iakus wrote...

Well, if this is the way all Bioware romances are going to be nowadays, the only possible compromise I can come up with is do the ME3 "ambiguous line" option for the player.

Sadly, one weakness in Bioware romances has been the tendancy for potential LIs to fling themselves at the player.  I can't tell you how awkward it felt to have Tali practically crawling into my Shepard's lap after doing her loyalty mission.  And turning down LIs more often than not makes the PC sound like a jerk (imo, anyway)  Like calling Silk Fox "you're not that interestin"  In some cases, both.  I've found that if I'm anything short of a jerk to Anders I pretty much have to fend him off with a stick.

ME3 did something that I found rather clever.  At one point, a potential LI gives a line which could be interpreted as a simple gesture of friendship, or could be an invitation for soemthin gmore.  Shepard gets two (very obvious) lines indicating which way you want things to go.  Pick the friendship line, and everything procedes in a totally platonic manner.  It's like romance never entered the equation.  Pick the romance line, and you lock in a romance.  It all felt very natural.  No "heartbreak" necessary.

I for one felt a lot better turning down the Liara romance in ME3 than I did in ME1.

ME3 done it very well, especially with Samantha Traynor's shower scene, the way you can let her down without coming across as a complete jerk was very clever and spared any embarrassment for either one involved.

[Jerrybnsn]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

iakus wrote...

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius. 

Unfortunately the character that fits that role best in the DA series is Sandal.

*fade to black* "Enchantment!"

[LolaLei]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

iakus wrote...

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius. 

Unfortunately the character that fits that role best in the DA series is Sandal.

*fade to black* "Enchantment!"

LOL! Oh gawd, the mental images!

[Jerrybnsn]

LolaLei wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

iakus wrote...

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius. 

Unfortunately the character that fits that role best in the DA series is Sandal.

*fade to black* "Enchantment!"

LOL! Oh gawd, the mental images!

Maybe....just maybe...they could do a funny dream sequence of this.   Spoof the ME team with the next protagonist having strange dreams of his/her own.

[LolaLei]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

iakus wrote...

I thought ME3's use of Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor as LIs who while crew, were not "companions", was a stroke of genius. 

Unfortunately the character that fits that role best in the DA series is Sandal.

*fade to black* "Enchantment!"

LOL! Oh gawd, the mental images!

Maybe....just maybe...they could do a funny dream sequence of this.   Spoof the ME team with the next protagonist having strange dreams of his/her own.

LOL!

[hussey 92]

It does seem a bit unrealistic (or lucky) that everyone who is interested in you is bi-sexual

[Iakus]

hussey 92 wrote...

It does seem a bit unrealistic (or lucky) that everyone who is interested in you is bi-sexual

Indeed. That's why I floated the ME3 thing.

It would be (somewhat) easier to swallow that only the person the PC is into is also Hot4Hawke (or whoever) rather than having every available LI flinging themselves at you until you shut them down.

[devSin]

I was perfectly pleased with the way this was handled in DA2.

It doesn't always have to be the case that all romances will be gender-inclusive (I don't think the term "bisexual" is accurate, because I don't remember it ever being specified in game who Fenris and Merrill would be sleeping with other than you), but I didn't find it at all awkward or to really have any impact on the characterization of the companions.

My only problem with the romances is not with gender but that they exist in their little "optional" garden. Because the player is probably not going to be involved in a romance with that particular companion, the amount of content that reflects the romance is confined to only a few romance-specific sequences. I think BioWare should put all its effort into finding ways to seed the rest of the campaign with nods to the active romance than to spend time worrying about gender checks and foursomes (not that the one concern actually has any impact on the other, of course).

Modifié par devSin, 09 juin 2012 - 12:03 .

[mopotter]

I don't need everyone hot for my character at the same time.

I do usually play female, because I am female, but if I have a LI option that is only available to a guy, then I'll roll play a guy for that romance option. If everyone is available, why bother. I only played female in DA:2 no reason to play a guy. DA:O I played both and enjoyed it a lot. And I really don't want everyone I meet to fall for my character's charms. Fable is not my game of choice.

I would love to have the LI be triggered by the character's behavior. A couple who can be swayed a couple who will leave or try to kill you if your behavior doesn't match theirs. That would be interesting to me, the same as having a character like Cortzez in ME3. He was Kate Shepard's friend. He was a wonderful character and his story one of my surprise favorites.

Agree with Sylogi that this was irritating. at least to me - "letting us metagame friendship/approval points to the right level by putting the LI in or out of the party only at certain times, even when it's obvious that the character would not agree with the actions of the PC overall."

I did gave lots of gifts, including bones, in DA:O in a couple of games where I romanced Zev and wanted to make sure it worked, but really, would have liked to be told your not my type, whether it's because of sex or behavior. I actually enjoyed playing the character he turned against, and having the option to kill him at the beginning.

I would also really like a good friendship path and learn about my team and not have their conversations cut off if I don't romance them.

[Iakus]

mopotter wrote...

I don't need everyone hot for my character at the same time.

I do usually play female, because I am female, but if I have a LI option that is only available to a guy, then I'll roll play a guy for that romance option. If everyone is available, why bother. I only played female in DA:2 no reason to play a guy. DA:O I played both and enjoyed it a lot. And I really don't want everyone I meet to fall for my character's charms. Fable is not my game of choice.

 

Good way of putting it

[devSin]

iakus wrote...

It would be (somewhat) easier to swallow that only the person the PC is into is also Hot4Hawke (or whoever) rather than having every available LI flinging themselves at you until you shut them down.

Then don't flirt? I don't remember anybody in DA2 being hot for me, except that awkward conversation with Anders, which was one single character out of at least four possible romances.

ME3 didn't add anything or cover new ground, except for locking you to one romance (so they made it ultra-obvious where the lock-in occurred). I never stray, so I'm fine with that restriction, but it doesn't really change the interaction. It's still a "date", and you still (as the player) know that the top response is the heart icon and the bottom response is the broken heart icon.

Additionally, DA has always handled non-romance better than ME (since you can actually have a relationship with a character who you choose not to romance). Turning down Anders doesn't mean that Anders is going to say nothing to you for the rest of the game—it just means that now that relationship will develop differently, as it should. Which is exactly the behavior you seem to be suggesting should be used, isn't it?

Modifié par devSin, 09 juin 2012 - 12:23 .

[FaWa]

I don't see the problem. If they implemented in ME, straight guys could make hot girls and bang Miranda.

Of all the problems with DA2, this should not be on the forefront of discussion.

[Jerrybnsn]

Wasn't Isabella propositioning the female Hawkes? I played one female rogue and she was just as forward with the her as she was with my male Hawke. But I think Anders and Isabella were the only two bi-characters that were forward. Merrille and Feneris weren't forward.

[Iakus]

devSin wrote...

Then don't flirt? I don't remember anybody in DA2 being hot for me, except that awkward conversation with Anders, which was one single character out of at least four possible romances.

ME3 didn't add anything or cover new ground, except for locking you to one romance (so they made it ultra-obvious where the lock-in occurred). I never stray, so I'm fine with that restriction, but it doesn't really change the interaction. It's still a "date", and you still (as the player) know that the top response is the heart icon and the bottom response is the broken heart icon.

Additionally, DA has always handled non-romance better than ME (since you can actually have a relationship with a character who you choose not to romance). Turning down Anders doesn't mean that Anders is going to say nothing to you for the rest of the game—it just means that now that relationship will develop differently, as it should. Which is exactly the behavior you seem to be suggesting should be used, isn't it?

Even without flirting all the LIs in DA2 eventually have to be "heartbroken" by my Hawkes unless I'm totally rude to them from the start (or interested in romancing them, of course). 

This is not a unique situation.  It happens in most Bioware games.  What is unique is that instead of letting 1-2 characters down, I'm going to have to disappoint half the party or more.

And yes, it is great that characters will still talk to you after turning them down (unlike, say, the ME2 squaddies) but that doesn't negate that I'm guaranteed at least one really awkward "sorry, not interested" scene per potential LI (or two if Anders decides to get clingy again, though that might be a bug)

What ME3 did is make sure that scene never happens.  If I'm out having lunch with Liara on the Presidium, the direction Shepard takes the conversation determines if it's "just a couple of friends chatting" or if it's something more.  Not like in ME1 where Liara does her "I find you fascinating" conversation which, no matter how you try to let her down, gets Liara totally embarassed and she asks you to leave.

Modifié par iakus, 09 juin 2012 - 12:49 .

[Iakus]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Wasn't Isabella propositioning the female Hawkes? I played one female rogue and she was just as forward with the her as she was with my male Hawke. But I think Anders and Isabella were the only two bi-characters that were forward. Merrille and Feneris weren't forward.

Merrill and Fenris are more tentative, but yes they do proposition Hawke.

Agressive Hawke's turn down is particularly curt with Fenris:  "Back off!"

[devSin]

iakus wrote...

What ME3 did is make sure that scene never happens.  If I'm out having lunch with Liara on the Presidium, the direction Shepard takes the conversation determines if it's "just a couple of friends chatting" or if it's something more.

I'm not seeing the difference from DA2.

Unless you pursue somebody, romance doesn't come up. I can't think of any instance other than Anders where the only choices are heart and heartbreak (unless you've been pursuing them throughout the game)?

They don't have a prescribed "date" scene like ME3 that always fires and has two separate versions, but I can't see how that is needed since you have to do most of the work to get into a relationship in DA2.

It's also not a "gate" for affections. Liara creeps you through most of the game regardless of what happens, and Kaidan will try some clumsy flirts early in the game (and there's no question when you get his date scene). Steve has HomoGuard 2000 protecting his date scene, but I doubt it makes anybody who's already uncomfortable with him expressing any affection (even platonic) any happier. Garrus and Tali and the rest don't really count, because you can only get there by continuing an existing romance (but until you do and get locked in, you're still fair game in all the other date scenes).

Modifié par devSin, 09 juin 2012 - 01:07 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
Even without flirting all the LIs in DA2 eventually have to be "heartbroken" by my Hawkes unless I'm totally rude to them from the start (or interested in romancing them, of course). 

This is not a unique situation.  It happens in most Bioware games.  What is unique is that instead of letting 1-2 characters down, I'm going to have to disappoint half the party or more.

And yes, it is great that characters will still talk to you after turning them down (unlike, say, the ME2 squaddies) but that doesn't negate that I'm guaranteed at least one really awkward "sorry, not interested" scene per potential LI (or two if Anders decides to get clingy again, though that might be a bug)

What ME3 did is make sure that scene never happens.  If I'm out having lunch with Liara on the Presidium, the direction Shepard takes the conversation determines if it's "just a couple of friends chatting" or if it's something more.  Not like in ME1 where Liara does her "I find you fascinating" conversation which, no matter how you try to let her down, gets Liara totally embarassed and she asks you to leave.

No offense Iakus but the bolded is a flat out LIE. Merrill NEVER has to be rejected, Fenris NEVER has to be rejected (just not flirted with), Isabela NEVER has to be rejected. Even Anders only has to be rejected if you pick the diplo option after his recruitment quest. I never once had to be rude and use the heartbreak option on the above 3 if I didn't want to romance them. Not. ONCE.

It's called not picking the heart.

As for not letting 2-3 characters down...I had to reject more people in ME2 than I did DA2 with my males so *shrugs*  and yes this is my straight Hawke. I don't mind you not liking characters coming onto but please don't exaggerate it.

Also ME3 has Kaidan and Ashley. Who proposition Shep regardless and he has to turn them down. So no it wasn't averted. Not completely. Only way to completely avert those two is to have a relationship already locked in with one of the LIs that are able to lock Shep in. And frankly the latter two were more annoying because for the most part Shep had the chance to romance them already. At least Liara accepts your friendship and only looks for more if you suggest it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2012 - 01:12 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Wasn't Isabella propositioning the female Hawkes? I played one female rogue and she was just as forward with the her as she was with my male Hawke. But I think Anders and Isabella were the only two bi-characters that were forward. Merrille and Feneris weren't forward.

Merrill and Fenris are more tentative, but yes they do proposition Hawke.

Agressive Hawke's turn down is particularly curt with Fenris:  "Back off!"

And Fenris' conversation can be taken completely platonically (which is exactly what I saw it as) if Hawke picks the neutral option.

And when the hell did Merrill ever hit on Hawke without Hawke picking a heart option? I missed that. And actually...other than that flirt at the end of her recruitment quest the ONLY way to even get Isabela remotely into "ooh I want to sleep with you mode." is to flirt with her first as well. Hell if you're trying to romance her you have to hit a specific heart! If you miss that one you're screwed!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2012 - 01:05 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...
Even without flirting all the LIs in DA2 eventually have to be "heartbroken" by my Hawkes unless I'm totally rude to them from the start (or interested in romancing them, of course). 

This is not a unique situation.  It happens in most Bioware games.  What is unique is that instead of letting 1-2 characters down, I'm going to have to disappoint half the party or more.

And yes, it is great that characters will still talk to you after turning them down (unlike, say, the ME2 squaddies) but that doesn't negate that I'm guaranteed at least one really awkward "sorry, not interested" scene per potential LI (or two if Anders decides to get clingy again, though that might be a bug)

What ME3 did is make sure that scene never happens.  If I'm out having lunch with Liara on the Presidium, the direction Shepard takes the conversation determines if it's "just a couple of friends chatting" or if it's something more.  Not like in ME1 where Liara does her "I find you fascinating" conversation which, no matter how you try to let her down, gets Liara totally embarassed and she asks you to leave.

No offense Iakus but the bolded is a flat out LIE. Merrill NEVER has to be rejected, Fenris NEVER has to be rejected (just not flirted with), Isabela NEVER has to be rejected. Even Anders only has to be rejected if you pick the diplo option after his recruitment quest. I never once had to be rude and use the heartbreak option on the above 3 if I didn't want to romance them. Not. ONCE.

It's called not picking the heart.

As for not letting 2-3 characters down...I had to reject more people in ME2 than I did DA2 with my males so *shrugs*  and yes this is my straight Hawke. I don't mind you not liking characters coming onto but please don't exaggerate it.

Also ME3 has Kaidan and Ashley. Who proposition Shep regardless and he has to turn them down. So no it wasn't averted. Not completely. Only way to completely avert those two is to have a relationship already locked in. And frankly the latter two were more annoying because for the most part Shep had the chance to romance them already. At least Liara accepts your friendship and only looks for more if you suggest it.

I am not lying. 

I may be mistaken, but if I am, my Hawkes are either putting out some major pheremones or I have seriously buggy copy.  I never pick the heart on any character I don't intend to romance (well, maybe with Aveline, but she's clueless)

ME2 is actually a good example of what I mean. Since yes, Shepard gets three people flinging themselves at him/her.  A vision of the future, perhaps?

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
I am not lying. 

I may be mistaken, but if I am, my Hawkes are either putting out some major pheremones or I have seriously buggy copy.  I never pick the heart on any character I don't intend to romance (well, maybe with Aveline, but she's clueless)

ME2 is actually a good example of what I mean. Since yes, Shepard gets three people flinging themselves at him/her.  A vision of the future, perhaps?

Then I have to question how you got such a bug. The only one who should ever have to be "heartbroken" to not trigger a romance should be Anders. There should be no way Fenris, Merrill's or Isabela's romances trigger without the character pressing a heart. I have tried. Heck Isabela's needs a specific heart or it's impossible. (and that stupid heart gives droves of friendship points so I had to cheat to give her more rival points on my rivalmance game). Fenris and Merrill automatically friendzone you if you never hit a heart. Anders forces the player into a heart or heartbreak choice if you pick the diplo option after his recruitment yes. He's the only one who ever does that at any point. Fenris and Merrill always give you either the continue the conversation platonically choice or the usually diplo/funny/aggressive that doesn't trigger a romance.

And ME3 still has the VS throwing him/herself at Shepard. It wasn't fixed in ME3.

Ideally the best solution for this isn't less bi LIs but less LIs trying to hit on the PC before the PC hits on them first (which I thought DA2 was refreshingly good at actually only bad point was Anders and the only thing he needed was a friendly rejection that occured once he locked you into the heart-heart-heartbreak choices.) It's irritating s/s or o/s regardless especially when I'm playing a single PC game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2012 - 01:30 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Then I have to question how you got such a bug. The only one who should ever have to be "heartbroken" to not trigger a romance should be Anders. There should be no way Fenris, Merrill's or Isabela's romances trigger without the character pressing a heart. I have tried. Heck Isabela's needs a specific heart or it's impossible. (and that stupid heart gives droves of friendship points so I had to cheat to give her more rival points). Fenris and Merrill automatically friendzone you if you never hit a heart. Anders forces the player into a heart or heartbreak choice if you pick the diplo option after his recruitment yes. He's the only one who ever does that at any point. Fenris and Merrill always give you either the continue the conversation platonically choice or the usually diplo/funny/aggressive that doesn't trigger a romance.

And ME3 still has the VS throwing him/herself at Shepard. It wasn't fixed in ME3.

Ideally the best solution for this isn't less bi LIs but less LIs trying to hit on the PC. It's irritating s/s or o/s regardless especially when I'm playing a single PC game.

I only know what I've experienced.

I can't comment on ME3 because I only did one playthrough, and in that one I threw myself at Ash .

And yes, less LI's trying to hit on the PC would be at least a compromise.  Before I only had half the LIs throwing themselves at me.  I shudder to think of more games where all of them do so

Modifié par iakus, 09 juin 2012 - 01:31 .

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
I only know what I've experienced.

I can't comment on ME3 because I only did one playthrough, and in that one I threw myself at Ash .

And yes, less LI's trying to hit on the PC would be at least a compromise.  Befire I onlyhad half teh LIs throwing themselves at me.  I shudder to think of more games where all of them do so

It differs widely from mine so that's why I'm a bit WTF at it. I haven't managed to complete any romance without pressing a heart once (the one game I tried my Hawke ended up forever alone )

And yeah ME3 just...yeah. It didn't fix that problem too much. It did at least fix it. But yeah...poor Shep still has to do the awkward. "Uh...yeah...um...that's nice and all but no." (what's awkward is that he/she does this to people s/he's already rejected. You'd think they'd at least learned from the first time. )

Honestly I'd rather have that regardless. I always found a bit WTF that I had evil characters throwing themselves at my paragon of niceness or vice versa. At least if the PC hits on them first I can at least pretend they decided to use his/her affection as a means to get more control over him/her or try to show them Love Redeems. And it's far less annoying and doesn't give me stalker vibes. *coughLiaraAshleycough* or creepy vibes *coughTaliandLiara*.

Yes it'll lose some oomph but I think the lessening of unwanted approaches and feeling swarmed by people hitting on the PC would make it worth it. (and certain LIs completely rejecting the PC because of certain decisions would be anice touch *like Anders in the Fade*) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[jeweledleah]

pokes head in. I actually though ME3 did it terribly. because you don't develop a romantic relationship. you are doing... something friendly I guess?, that you are then presented with a switch for. and then you hit - ok we're in a relationship now. ok, we're just friends. and then.. no interactions until the last scene. I honestly preferred 3 conversations and then a sex scene, to 1 conversation and then a sex scene.

I liked the way DAO did it best. i definitely liked the way DA2 did it. because while some people might have disliked the hearts, I thought it was a great compromise. as far as all bi LI? I know why bioware likes it. because they don't in fact write unique experiences. you are lucky if one or 2 sentences are different. they just write a singular romance and then copy paste it. YMMV on whether you like it or not.
people who prefer to play a single gender only probably love it since it means absolutely no missed content. me? not a fan, sorry. until such time that bioware learns how to set restrictions based on alignments, actions etc - organically (none of the "possibility of romance is tied to a single unexpected conversation option in the beginning of the game") gender restriction is the only one they can pull off reliably and therefore encourage replay-ability.

and for the love of god... create an illusion of LI hitting on a character by player giving a subtle hint. don't just have them throw themselves at a player just for being nice, especially when your only other option is being a jerk.

its actually part of what I loved about Alistair's romance in DAO. you could either be extremely forward with him thus initiating the romance? or you could just flirt very very lightly and then give him that last push (I don't think of you as just the king's son) and he would make the first move. either way is player initiated, but illusion of LI making a move is preserved.

[Firky]

Romance bugs might come about as a result of a more complex combination of events, than the player would be able to see as a result of testing one at a time, though. Maybe. Like, just not clicking heart on Merrill might be different if you don't click heart on her with some other flag active. Maybe. Depends how the flags are set and checked. (I wish we had a toolset. I'd totally go hunting.)

I already posted this in the thread, but it's several pages back. I managed to bork Varric's dialogue at the end because I romanced two, one died and the other I dumped. But something about that (probably rare) combination made Varric say that I was romancing both, but it should have been none.
(Edit: He also said both of the companions names simultaneously. )

Modifié par Firky, 09 juin 2012 - 01:52 .

[Ryzaki]

I never saw gender restrictions as enhancing replayability. I just don't play that gender. If the only thing different is LIs then that's not a very good way to encourage another walkthrough as that gender anyway. 15 to 30 minutes (and this is if you're STRETCHING it) is not enough for me to replay an entire 30+ hour game for. Especially not as a PC I find irritating. (I can't stand ME's femShep's voice or DA2's FemHawke voice).

@Firky: LOL that bug should've been fixed. That was actually a common bug. (Heck you also got Zombie LIs traveling with Hawke for some reason (even when s/he only romanced one person).

But honestly I've never gotten any combination that resulted in triggered romance without pressing a heart. So *shrugs* and if you get that bug while juggling multiple LIs you deserve it

And since it's a bug you really can't judge the game on something unintended to remove choices for others. That's not fair in the least. You should be asking for the bug to be fixed.

(And honestly if DA2 was anything bad at ninja triggers DAO and ME were HORRENDOUS. I can't count the amount of times Leliana and Zevran Alistair (not Zevran. Zev was pretty easy to reject) ninja'd me. (Same with Ashley to be honest. I had to find a ONE line trigger for her to stop romancing my PC or I had to leave her to die or I had to drag her and Liara along enough to reject her (but I'd still be forced to romance Liara) *or in Liara's case had to reject her with one line that WASN'T the renegade (learned that the hard way. ) and ME was a lot worse since if you missed those scarce rejections YOU COULDN'T GET OUT.) Seriously I never had a game's romances I hated more than ME's. Traps to the fullest extent is what they were.

Wait...I do have a game's romances i hate more than ME's. BG2's. By god that that...that was so horrible I just...how do you scream at someone that they betrayed you for getting pretty much forced into sex? Moral Dissonance? I stared at the screen for a good minute going "...she did not just say that." Never again. Ameonewhatever was a jerk and way too dang on patronizing and Viconia was well...just not my type.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2012 - 02:23 .