930 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You don't understand the question I'm trying to get you to answer.

I am not looking for definitions, I'm looking for practical consequences to a particular sexuality as regards to a character's perceptions and behavior in Thedas.

You did ask for me to define something didn't you? If that is the case why are you not looking for definition?.

If your intent was something else state it explicitly.

[mesmerizedish]

wsandista wrote...
I actually have made that argument. SEVERAL GOD DAMN TIMES. If you think being sexuality is a choice or doesn't effect who you are that is bullsh!t. I have also gone on and on and on and on about how every NPC needs to be very defined in every way possible only to have someone jump in and tell me I just don't like gay people.

Since you can only have complete knowledge of your own behavior, saying 100% that sexuality is not a choice is... egocentric, to say the least.

Tell me how Merrill or Fenris would have benefitted from being written as explicitly *sexual.

[upsettingshorts]

wsandista wrote...

You did ask for me to define something didn't you? If that is the case why are you not looking for definition?.

If your intent was something else state it explicitly.

My first post and third post say the same thing in different explicit ways since your responses failed to indicate you understood the question.

My second post asked for definitions, and the definitions you provided are useless on their own as they do not answer the questions raised in the first and third post.  In what way does anything you "define" matter in Thedas?  Provide examples.  Show your work.  Do not stray from your own definitions.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 juin 2012 - 05:15 .

[mesmerizedish]

wsandista wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You don't understand the question I'm trying to get you to answer.

I am not looking for definitions, I'm looking for practical consequences to a particular sexuality as regards to a character's perceptions and behavior in Thedas.

You did ask for me to define something didn't you? If that is the case why are you not looking for definition?.

If your intent was something else state it explicitly.

He asked you to define your position. It's simple enough if you don't skip over the concepts you have trouble with.

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

wsandista wrote...

You did ask for me to define something didn't you? If that is the case why are you not looking for definition?.

If your intent was something else state it explicitly.

My first post and third post say the same thing in different explicit ways since your responses failed to indicate you understood the question.

My second post asked for definitions, and the definitions you provided are useless as they do not answer the questions raised in the first and third post.  In what way does anything you "define" matter in Thedas?  Provide examples.  Show your work.  Do not stray from your own definitions.

Really?

Define your position on what constitutes "human nature" with regards to sexuality.

You told me to define my position on human nature with regards to sexuality.

That is what I did. Unless you weren't really asking me that question but something else entirely, which in that case you did a really poor job asking the question.

[Iakus]

Nyoka wrote...

iakus,

First sorry for the douchy tone but I was pissed off for not being able to join a lobby in me3mp. First point is Ashley is a character on her own merits... and then she has a gender lock. The modded romance for Ashley works very well. So characters don't stop being characters when they're made into subjective sexuality, as you said. Just untrue. My way of showing that in the most clear way possible is to ask you if Ashley changes in any way in your playthrough the day you learn she's available for Femshep. No she doesn't. Therefore Shepard doesn't bend reality.

No problem.  I've heard far worse.  Truth be told, I'm suprised I haven't been accused of a hate crime yet 

As for Ash:  I'll have to take your word on the modded working well.  But I don't like like the idea of leaving any trsit subjective (not just sexuality) as it means a character is essentially unfinished.  It means the player needs to..."speculate":innocent:

And remember, I said that Ashley wouldn't change as a character for me if she was openly bi from the beginning.  But she is not.  Unless I seriously misinterpreted her offer to ask Liara about her sex life...

Another example, I didn't know Anders had a past with Carl if you play Manhawke, because I never play Manhawke. To me, Anders had a friend named Carl, that's all. Then, a year after purchasing the game, I read on the forums that Manhawke players say Anders had a thing with Carl. Oh well. That's Anders for them, and it's equally well. Carl is either a friend or a past relationship. Such a small detail doesn't affect Ander's characterization, who he is in the game (he has far more important things to show and be remembered by in the game); and that's more than the changes Ashley would get. I don't get affected in any way by Carl. Likewise you aren't affected in any way by my Ashleymance. If you are defending that subjective sexuality necessarily makes characters hollow or in any way worse, then Ashley became hollow or worse the day I modded her romance and it worked well. But she obviously didn't. Romance should be a major part of her characterization for that to work, and it's never been that way in these games.

Again, I have to take your word that the mod works well for you.  As for Anders, well, he's so different from Awakening Anders I headcanon he's a visitor from an alternate universe 

And in my first playthrough, he did hit on my NiceHawke and had to take a rivalry hit to turn him down (was trying to romance Merrill, but was pro-mage and still wanted to be nice to Anders) Yeah yeah "It was only a small hit, no big deal" but I never hit the flirt button and had no interest in this runaway Grey Warden aside from his maps.

The siblings thing.

For Femhawke you have Merril, Fenris, Anders and Isabela. Manhawke, same. Warrior hawke, same. Mage hawke, same. Whatever, always the same choices for you to pick. The game lets you decide. Now, with the siblings, warrior/rogue Hawke gets Bethany and mage Hawke gets Carver. No choice. That's the difference. You don't decide. You can't support one or another in that fight. The game decides for you. Back to romances: I think Merrill is a good character with a good story and background and all the rest, not hollow or bad or cheap, and still after all these pages I see no reason why she should be only available for romance if you play Manhawke, or Femhawke, or rogue Hawke, or whatever other arbitrary restriction you might want to put there.

 I think my example wasn't as clear as I thought it would be.  I'll have to come up with a different one to illustrate my thoughts.  But it's getting late...

If you're going to put a restriction, let it be an action that goes against her character. Break her mirror. Hand her over to the templars for being a blood mage. Something related to her, as a character. It's logical that Merrill won't want you if you denounce her. She'll hate you. And that locks the romance path. Is that more hollow or cheap than making her available exclusively to, say, Femhawke for the sake of... something? I think it isn't.

First, what I want is a "let's be friends" option.  I don't want to kill or betray companions to get out of romantic overtures.  I don't want to have to break hearts, act like a jerk or carefully watch for and avoid heart icons.  If my PC meets a friend for lunch, I just want to say "we're friends having lunch".  If I meet a companion for drinks at a bar, I want to just check out the scenery.  If I'm playing chess with a friend, I want to just be able to play chess.  No fuss.  No muss.

The following is my own opinion.  I doubt anyone else would want it:

People have a number of traits, and no they aren't totally defined by a single one.  But they are there.  Big and small.  Aveline is strong and honorable.  She also has freckles and red hair.  Merrill is dalish.  Merrill is a blood mage.  Merrill is book smart but lacking in common sense.  And so on.

When the protagonist starts defining the traits of those around them...it doesn't sit well with me.   An openly bi character designed with that trait in mind (like Leliana, Isabela, or Zevran) is one thing.  That is itself a trait.   But to have a trait defined by the protagonist?   That's too much power for the protagonist to have.

WIth this power, I should be able to seduce Meredith into giving up her sword and Orsino into slipping out of Kirkwall quietly. 

The "lets be friends" switch could help with that.  It would let me at least ignore that I'm defining the traits of several characters, and give myself the illusion that I'm only defining one.

You have money for 8 well written romances - with subjective sexuality you have 8 potential love interests regardless of your Hawke, plus the extra cost of minor line variations, like pronouns (the Carl thing, or Cortez's dead husband are unnecessary additions in my opinion. Ashley didn't need it for the romance to be wonderful. Still, those details are small enough to make a variation: Carl-the-friend and a dead wife instead of husband. Problem solved). This is the way to maximize choice with a given set of resources. There is no way around it. If you like to make different Hawkes to romance different people because replayability, you can make 8 Hawkes if you want. That's replayability right there. I personally prefer to make 1 Hawke, and replay the game 8 times with the same Hawke. Because the game lets me do that. Your game, your choice. Possibilities are open for you to decide. The game doesn't tell you you can't romance this one or that one because of the Hawke you made. The game lets you decide that. Only games can do this. Movies and books and comics and TV shows can't do it because there's no interactivity. That's why I said on page 1 that subjective sexuality is a unique advantage of this medium and it should be seized for greater role playing possibilities.

With your approach, however, any given Hawke will get 4 potential love interests. You will be able to notice eight options for any given Hawke are more than four. And then I will have to mod the game to remove an arbitrary gender lock that the game put there for an arbitrary reason, like in Jade Empire and ME1 and DA:O, so I can have the option to romance the character I think best suits my character.

So people having four options which aren't all the same options have fewer options than people who have four options but they are all the same options?

[wsandista]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You don't understand the question I'm trying to get you to answer.

I am not looking for definitions, I'm looking for practical consequences to a particular sexuality as regards to a character's perceptions and behavior in Thedas.

You did ask for me to define something didn't you? If that is the case why are you not looking for definition?.

If your intent was something else state it explicitly.

He asked you to define your position. It's simple enough if you don't skip over the concepts you have trouble with.

My position is something.

[upsettingshorts]

wsandista wrote...

That is what I did. Unless you weren't really asking me that question but something else entirely, which in that case you did a really poor job asking the question.

Am I seriously going to have to re-summarize a simple conversation from a page ago?  You're genuinely confusing my clarifying question with my original question?

You:  If you think being sexuality ... doesn't effect who you are that is bullsh!t. 
Me:  Prove how it does in Thedas.  Show your work, provide examples.
You:  Does human nature somehow function differently in Thedas?

Based on your response, I determine we are not operating under the same premises and terms, so I ask a clarifying question and label it as a step backwards.  I am not ultimately abandoning my initial line of inquiry, this is a detour.

Me:  Okay, we need to go back a step then.  Define your position on what constitutes "human nature" with regards to sexuality.
You:  (Defined terms, not a single mention of an example from Thedas, nor an attempt to establish a connection to behaviors of a given Dragon Age character)
Me:  You don't understand the question I'm trying to get you to answer.  I am not looking for definitions, I'm looking for practical consequences to a particular sexuality as regards to a character's perceptions and behavior in Thedas.

At this point it is clear I am attempting to return the focus to my original question, and the last couple posts has been your misunderstanding this extremely simple idea.

So I will ask, again:  
In what way does anything you "define" matter in Thedas?  Provide examples.  Show your work.  Do not stray from your own definitions.

You have accused me of being misleading or unclear, yet I have asked the same question several times now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 juin 2012 - 05:29 .

[Esbatty]

Who else is a Qunari-sexual? Just me? FINE! MORE PRYBAR FOR ME!

[Ihatebadgames]

And people wonder why I like yes or no answers the best.DA:2..No see easy as pie.
More choices for everyone..yes.

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Am I seriously going to have to re-summarize a simple conversation from a page ago?  You're genuinely confusing my clarifying question with my original question?

Obviously. 

You:  If you think being sexuality ... doesn't effect who you are that is bullsh!t. 
Me:  Prove how it does in Thedas.  Show your work, provide examples.
You:  Does human nature somehow function differently in Thedas?

First of all the first "You" is wrong I actually wrote this:

If you think being sexuality is a choice or doesn't effect who you are that is bullsh!t

Granted, not much has changed, but the entire sentence should be quoted for the sake of accuracy. "being" is a vestigial part of a sentence I was going to type, but did not.

At this point I determine we are not operating under the same premises and terms, so I ask a clarifying question and label it as a step backwards.  I am not ultimately abandoning my initial line of inquiry, this is a detour.

Me:  Okay, we need to go back a step then.  Define your position on what constitutes "human nature" with regards to sexuality.
You:  (Defined terms, not a single mention of an example from Thedas, nor an attempt to establish a connection to behaviors of a given Dragon Age character)

It was a detour, and I answered your inquiry. I have add that the clarification did not include ANY mention of Thedas or request any connection to DA be included.

Me:  You don't understand the question I'm trying to get you to answer.  I am not looking for definitions, I'm looking for practical consequences to a particular sexuality as regards to a character's perceptions and behavior in Thedas.

At this point I asked you why did you act surprised when I gave you a definition, when that is what you requested.

At this point it is clear I am attempting to return the focus to my original question, and the last couple posts has been your misunderstanding this extremely simple idea.

You were the one who both asked a question in the first place, then insisted on taking the detour. It is not my fault that you did not communicate well enough for me to understand.

So I will ask, again:  
In what way does anything you "define" matter in Thedas?  Provide examples.  Show your work.  Do not stray from your own definitions.

You have accused me of being misleading or unclear, yet I have asked the same question several times now.

I have stated that you have been unclear, not accused you of so.

To answer your question it matters because I create the PC. If I believe that my PCs sexuality matters to who he is as a character, then it matters in my game. Look at the male warden and Zevran conversations. The PC has has several options in dialogue with regards to Zevran. There are several dialogue options avliable for either orientation. If playing a strictly heterosexual PC, I can pick several options to illustrate that. 

However I somehow don't think you believe that the PC can actually count as an acceptable example.

If you have a problem with my answer please explain why my definition of human nature does not apply. Show some evidence as well, I don't care if I do not find it convincing as long as it matches your logic.

Modifié par wsandista, 10 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[Abispa]

I'll post something here that Quething put up in the ME3 s/s thread since it pretty much says what I believe better than some of my posts here. For completely selfish reasons I've cut out the part of her post where she whoops my ass for disagreeing with her position on one of the ME LIs.

Quething wrote...

I'm just incredibly sick of the argument that DA2's "all bi" system was unrealistic or bad. Nobody who makes it actually cares about realism. If they did, why aren't they bothered by Tali dating a pro-geth Shepard, or Liara falling for a hardline renedouche? Why doesn't it bother them that Sebastian and Fenris can fall in love with a mage Hawke or that Izzy will go for a boring goody-two shoes she complains about constantly? "Four bi people in the same circle of friends is unrealistic and immersion-breaking!" is just a pretty way of saying "I don't want gay cooties on the character I romance."

DA2 worked just fine. It was an elegant way to save resources, allowing every love interest to be well-developed and allowing men and women, queer and straight players alike to all have access to a plot-important, strong and well-written romance. If someone objects to that, they either have no understanding of the complexities of game design, or they don't think queer people deserve as much choice as straight ones. Either way the argument is simply wrong, and it bugs me that it's such a convenient way for people to claim that they're worried about character fidelity and helping us poor queers get the representation we deserve, when that's basically the complete opposite of what the DA:O or Mass Effect method actually does.

[TJX2045]

wsandista wrote...

To answer your question it matters because I create the PC. If I believe that my PCs sexuality matters to who he is as a character, then it matters in my game. Look at the male warden and Zevran conversations. The PC has has several options in dialogue with regards to Zevran. There are several dialogue options avliable for either orientation. If playing a strictly heterosexual PC, I can pick several options to illustrate that. 

You believe your PC's sexuality matters in your game...so roleplay like you said, as a straight male.

How does having a hero-sexual cast hurt this?  I can RP my character as gay and nothing that the female characters say to me that establish their character would make me assume that they are one way or another or bother me when they hit on me.  You don't go up to people and just know their sexuality.

You believe the PC's sexuality matters, so RP him as one who wouldn't accept a s/s advance.  Simple resolution there.

And if you could please tell me HOW a gay character would be different from a straight one characterization wise...yes, this is a serious question, because I want to know what you think the differences will be.

Modifié par TJX2045, 10 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[AkiKishi]

It's kind of amusing that people who are saying sexuality does not matter while trying to influence game design for that very reason...

Everyone is Bi/Hero sexual is not the best method. If it were ME would have used it. It's a let's do the most with what we have method.
Now that's fine if your fantasy is to bed anyone you want irrespective of THEIR character. But it turns the LI NPCs into little more than romance toys , there for the gratification of the player.

Restrictions and and challenges are what make things interesting. Sometimes despite your best efforts something may not work out because of circumstances.

Heres Viconias faq since she was apparently so easy



3.3 Viconia

Profile: Elven Drow.  Perhaps the fittest bird in the entire game out
of Jaheira and Aerie, although I reckon Jaheira and Viconia are
equally as pretty.  She's a bit dominant and enjoys nothing more
but to antagonize you and lead you on.  She is also very
aggressive and being Drow that also means she is very ruthless as
you will discover as the love dialogues go on.  If perchance you
side with Bodhi in Chapter 3, she will urge you to do the more
evil of the tasks when Bodhi asks you to choose between the two. 
Arguably one of the hardest to get you will most likely be
frustrated at her changes in her mood towards you.  She's a cleric
and a pretty good one at that, and if you get the Crom Faeyr for
her she will use it quite well as a mid line attacker/defender,
somebody that would go well putting her between the frontline
fighters and the mages at the back, to finish off those beasts
that may have managed to evade your fighters.

Diff: She's the most difficult out of the three. 

Hints: You will have to find a neat balance between making fun of
her, getting angry and being sensitive.  One usual tactic I have
is to be relatively harsh to her at the beginning of the romance
and then when she talks of her experience in the Underdark and on
the surface show some caring and consideration.

For starters you must not seem weak in Viconia's eyes otherwise
she will despise you.  Thus, always choose options that seem to
make you a more courageous and daring man that you are.  She will
think that if you are too nice to her she will be disgusted
claiming this to be your weakness.  However once she starts
talking about her brother who saved her from Lloth, you must be
understanding and sensitive.  At this point you must always get
her to continue on her story and show some real consideration for
her brother and for her.  Other than that there are really nothing
much to say about this romance.  The only fighting action that
ever comes out of this romance is the appearance of a Handmaiden
who will appear to kill Viconia, after you have defeated her, you
are on your way to victory - the ending  of the romance and the
fact that she does not want to go out with you because she is
afraid that she will endanger you.  Whatever she says at the last
dialogue of the romance, the break up is inevitable but you must
not let her go from the party.  Keeping her in the party means
that the romance will have finished successfully even if she
claims that you and her will never be able to go out again because
of your differences.
Steps:

LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun?  Amn?  Athkalata?  I
seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'


Choose option 2

'How are you going to hunt down these culprits who ambushed you? 
Vermin rarely leave scent or footstep.'

Choose option 1

LD2: 'It's a strange time along this Sword Coast.  The brink of war was
averted, but the countryside remains hazardous to the citizenry.'

Choose option 1

'The war your half brother nearly started.  What do you think I
was speaking of?

Choose option 1

'Perhaps 'his' war died.  That does not mean that other conflicts
won't arise.  Perhaps I ramble on, if you wish I'll stop bothering
you.'

Choose option 1

'It has been trying past endurance (char name) (sigh).'

Choose option 1

'My neighbour was Roran Midfallow, a stout sun burnt farmer.  We
spoke often and allowed the male to bring me supplies that I
needed but could not acquire.'

Choose option 1

'I had grown weak in my trust.  They chortled as I lost
consciousness saying how easy it had been and congratulating each
other on a fine...fine catch.'

Choose option 1

'I split the coffin lid and let the earth in.  I clawed to the
surface, pain did not slow me...I would not let weakness deter me
from vengeance.'

Choose option 1

'He dropped to his knees in shock, which afforded me height
advantage as I caved his head with a miner's mallet.'

Choose option 1

LD3: 'I wish to...apologize...for unburdening myself upon you before.  I
was so foolish to be weak in Beregost, and worse yet to speak to
you about it.'

Choose option 2
'My entire existence has been thus since I left the Underdark. 
Surfacers hate the Drow without relent, and I erred in thinking
otherwise even for a moment.'

Choose option 2

LD4: 'I have been watching you for a time as we travel.  You have a
pleasing look about you, I think.  The sort of musculature that
would make a woman swoon with desire.'

Choose option 1

'Perhaps.  And what do you think of Viconia hmmm?  Does her ebony
glow spur lustful thoughts?  Does her sharp beauty give you
singular twinges of desire?'

Choose option 2

LD5: 'I have been thinking a little.  I have been thinking of the time
I spent with the rivvil...the humans...and I have found nothing
redeeming or worthwhile in them.

Choose option 2

'Name one surface dweller who has treated me with ANY civility!'

Choose option 2

LD6: 'So...it must take a very driven man to lead his life always on the
road.'

Choose option 3

'Yes, I have noticed the type of man that you are.  Intense,
determined, strong...all the qualities I have grown to like most
colnbluth exist in you.'

Choose option 1

'Our long lives are static, we feel no urgency.  Despite
appearance, we become complacent.  If the Drow had your drive...it
would be a Second Age of conquest!'

Choose option 1

'It is unfortunate that most of the good traits of the colnbluth
are held in pale little lives no longer than a firefly's.    Here
and there they flicker, then sad death.'

Choose option 1

LD7: 'I have been thinking, and I think that I may have been
exceedingly harsh in my treatment of you once again.'

Choose option 1

'I have toyed with your feelings unfairly, placing you down with
the other males I have known...and you have not been like them.  It
was...wrong of me.'

Choose option 2

LD8: 'Have I ever told you about how I survived when I first fled to
the surface?'
Choose option 1

'There I was hunted by the dirthiir...surface elves...and their honed
hatred drove me even further.  I was sure I would perish, never to
see the Underdark again.'

Choose option 1

'Does it amuse you that I had to run my dark hands through his
sweaty folds and tickle him artfully with my tongue, that he
exerted himself wildly as I passionately bit his shoulder?'

Choose option 3

'Oh do not look at me in such a manner.  Does your manhood wilt
from talk of using Drow knowledge of the erotic to survive in your
world?  Is it so terrible?'

Choose option 1

LD9: 'Tell me...has there been anyone special to you?  A thief of your
heart?

Choose option 2

'Never a special one who has waited for her hero's return?  The
idea has value.  I myself, hope to retire to a home that doesn't
change by the day.'

Choose option 3

'You think so?  I cannot wait for the final act of this play,
then...I am sure it will be worth waiting for.'

Choose option 1

'Your heart is heavy with lust and burning desire, and beats
proudly and strongly...but shall it be mine or another's?

Choose option 2

LD10: 'What was your life like before you were an adventurer?  Didn't it
seem simpler?  Less complicated?

Choose option 1

'Didn't it seem simpler, easier in flavour?  There were less
entanglements, far less chaos.  We weren't always exploring some
dank, ruined place.'

Choose option 3

'Do you?  And do you think that such excitement will grip your
sense forever?  Is there no longing for peace within you (char
name)?'

Choose option  3

'It would be nice, wouldn't it (char name)?  To leave the
insidious schemes and psychopathic  for madmen for others to
battle and prevail over?'

Choose option 2

'That is an offer worth bearing witness to.  It merits serious
consideration (char name).

Choose option 2

'I will definitely consider its value and place in my life (char
name).  I appreciate your words of friendship as well...it is not
words I am familiar with.'

Choose option 1

LD11: 'Hmmm...I am wondering this:  do you ever entertain the notion of
marriage?'

Choose option 2

'To commit to one person in all matter?  It seems a bizarre
internment to me, tantamount to slavery.'

Choose option 1

'Variety is the spice of life.  The drudgery of having the same
partner...it would have to be a unique and special person indeed.'

Choose option  3

'From what I have seen.  Surface custom is not so different from
ours.  Of course, Drow culture allows for 'husbands' to be
disposed and replaced.'

Choose option 2

'Perhaps.  I haven't devoted much thought to it, though I have
noticed that the role of male and female are reversed on the
surface.'

Choose option 1

LD12: 'I have been thinking about the Divinity that flows through your
veins.'

'Does it fire your ambitions (char name)?  Is there a lust within
you superceding mere passion, a desire to lord over others as a
conqueror and superior?'

Choose option 1


LD13: 'Please disregard the things I said to you earlier.  They were ill
conceived.  You...you are not drow and not worthy of such insults.'

Choose option 2

LD14: 'I have been told little about this 'Bhaal' of yours, but I am
unfamiliar with him.  Among the drow, we are taught nothing of
other gods, and little enough about our own gods beyond Lloth.'

Choose option 2

'Yes, gods like Ghaundaur, and Vhaeraun hold some power, but Lloth
is the strongest by far and forbids even their mention.'

Choose option 1

'Nightsinger is a mistress of darkness and loss.  I was born of
darkness and have lost much: my faith, my home...Shar has returned
much.  I am greatful to Her.'

Choose option 1

'It is difficult to describe.  The Underdark is a place of great
evil and danger, but also of beauty and wonder.  Would you like me
to tell you of it?

Choose option 1

'But these images pale before memories of the Spider Queen, and
the worship I began so young.  Beauty is difficult to find in the
blood that I let flow in her name.'

Choose option 1

'He screamed as the blade entered, and split blood when I
punctured his lungs.  To the delight of the matron mothers I
pulled out his heart still beating.'

Choose option 1

LD15: 'Have I told you how it is that I came to flee from the
underdark?'

Choose option 1

'One of the lesser priestesses noticed my hesitation and she took
the babe's life, herself, eager to usurp my place in Lloth's
favour.'

Choose option 2

'But I refused.  I was disgusted with my Queen, so I cursed my
mother and endangered my House.  In my naivete I thought that I
would survive after my actions.'

Choose option 1

LD16: 'I am ready to continue my tale if you are willing to hear it.'

Choose option 2

'I would have died, in fact, were it not for...if it were not for my
brother.  My poor, foolish brother.  Valas...

Choose option 2

LD17: 'Tell me something do you have much of a family?'

Choose option  2

'I cannot understand the relationships...the closeness that the
families of the surface retain with each other.  In the Underdark,
things are very different...'
Choose option  2

'There are normally no...'brothers,' although some males are
favoured than others.  Most simply exist to serve the Queen and
House but this is not always the case.'

Choose option 3

'In the end...he saved my life.  He...he prevented my sacrifice and
killed our mother giving me the opportunity to flee.

Choose option 1

LD18: 'My... brother...is finally what made me break my faith fully from the
Spider Queen.  His actions, I mean...saving me from sacrifice.'

Choose option 2

'I had begun to question Lloth's appetite for power and absolute
devotion with the child, but  I did not cast her out of my heart
fully until Valas saved my life.'

Choose option 1

'I was forced to flee the Underdark, making my way quickly to the
surface before the other drow could stop me, cursing and crying
the entire way.'

Choose option 1

LD19: 'If you would...if you would please sit with me for a moment, I
would be thankful.  I find myself uncharacteristically overcome
with anxiety and am not...eager...to be alone for the evening.'

Choose option 1

'I have been...thinking of Lloth.  She is cruel, not known for
forgiveness...and always takes revenge...collecting the lapsed and
fallen.  I know she will come for me.'

Choose option 2

'It will mean...it will mean nothing.  Lloth's reach is far...and I
fear there is no escaping it...

Choose option 1

'(char name), I am frightened to my very core!  Do not leave me
alone!  Stay with me this night.  I...I need to feel your flesh next
to mine, to embrace your strength...'

Choose option 3

LD20: 'Well I see that you are finally awake.  I hope that your pathetic
exertions last night brought at least one of us some measure of
pleasure.'

Choose option 2

'It was not.  I have seen limp and blind fish with more virility
than you.  I would have preferred the crude pawings of a goblin
than suffered your rough hands.'

Choose option 2

'Do not deny your salivating male desires, fool.  I found the
thought of your touch pleasing, but now I know better...you are
nothing more than a boy in a man's clothing!'

Choose option 3

LD21: 'You have no impetus to carve an empire, and you are certainly no
Lord of Murder.  I have decided you are weak and cowardly, not fit
for the godsblood flowing within you.'

Choose option 2

'You nauseate me (char name)...is it not reason enough?  I look upon
you and I see something that I would rather squish under my boot.'

Choose option 2

LD22: 'Do not stand so close to me.  It is bad enough that I have to
smell your stench on the occasional breeze...must I also bask in
your rancid aura?

Choose option 1

LD23: 'I have a confession to make to you.  Give me your ears for a
moment and listen, if you possess the sense.'

Choose option 2

'So then.  What do you think of that (char name)?  What do you
think of me now?'

Choose option 4

'I am a creature of dark lusts you fool!  Why are you not
disgusted by this?!  Turn away from me, spit on me and curse my
name I command you!'

Choose option 3 or 2.  I have chosen 2 and the dialogue ends.

LD24: *this is triggered by sleeping*

'(sigh)I...I cast my white flag before you.  I can struggle no more. 
You have...you have defeated me.'

Choose option 1

'If you will have me, I shall not push you away again...stay with me
tonight, (char name), let us be together in earnest.  Let me savor
the unfamiliar fear that goes with this trust.'

Choose option 4

LD25: 'A good morning to you.  Or at least, as close to morning as we
come with these strange hours that we keep.  I trust your
exertions were worthwhile?

Choose option 3

'You are not so terrible, (char name), for a male.'

Choose option 2

LD26: 'Tell me...did Gorion tell you many tales of the Underdark?  Did he
perchance mention some of the races that lived below?'

'That and the delight they seem to get from cracking open your
skull like a hen's egg and drinking everything swimming inside
your head.'

Choose option 2

'The first sign of Kuo Toa are the reek of dead fish.  Head away
from the water they need to survive.    Risking a fight is to
flirt with the Cold Maiden'

Choose option 1

LD27: 'Do your people have any kind of rite of passage into adulthood? 
I am curious.'

Choose option 2

'He thought me a beggar seeking guidance.  He was surprised when
he learned I was Drow, but not as much when I used his holy mace
to cave his forehead.'

Choose option 1

'And the act pleased Lloth.  Pleasing the Spider Queen was our
ethos and our mantra...girding ourselves to conquer the other
races.'

Choose option 1

LD28: 'What about the time before the Life?  Before the endless travels,
days in the dark with death on your heels?  Who was your closes
ally then?'

Choose option 2 (what I did anyway but I don't think it really
matters)

'Why do you consider him such a good teacher and close friend?'

Choose option 2

LD29: 'Have you devoted any thought to what you will do once this whole
business is over with?'

Choose option 2

'I have thought on the future myself.  With a little ambition I
see us carving an empire, ruling a small kingdom, and living in
the hedonistic luxury that we are meant to!'

Choose option 2

LD30: 'We are to stop now and rest are we?  I suppose that is good and
well, as I am exhausted nearly to the point of dropping.  Come,
then, my mrann d'ssiniss, and let us get our coupling over with
quickly.'

Choose option 2

'I may be tired, but I look forward to showing the arts I learned
as a Drow.  I hold a degree...of...affection for you (char name).  How
else am I supposed to show this?'

Choose option 2 (Please note, because I am extremely drained today
I can only be doing with the quick but effective measure.  You can
choose option 1 which is better and then you just have to play it
by common sense really!)

LD31: 'You are awake I see.  That is good.  I have been watching you for
some time...thinking.  I wish to share my thoughts with you.'

Choose option 1

In the next dialogue Viconia basically explains that she wants to
break up with you.  This is inevitable and so don't worry about
it.

Choose option 2

LD32: 'I have an odd feeling.  I do not...think...I have ever felt it like
this before...'

Choose option 2

'It is almost as if a dark whisper is traveling Faerun, searching,
seeking out...something...I...fear it is searching for me.'

Choose option 1

'It...no...there it goes.  The feeling...has vanished.  But that does
not mean it will not return.  I...I am suddenly quite cold inside...'

Choose option 1

LD33:  *The fight with the demon thing and the handmaiden!  Whooo hoooo! 
Showdown time! 

After the battle Choose option 2

Then Choose option 1

LD34: 'Back away from me, you pathetic fool!  Do not cast your eyes upon
me!  I told you to let me be ilbilith!!  Are you so insipid and
moronic that you cannot understand such simple instructions?!

Choose option 1

'You...you are an affront to me...I wish this had never come to be!'

Choose option 1

LD35: 'This...is not working...between us.  It will never work, and I think
you know this.  There can only be one outcome.  This can only end
poorly.'

Choose option 2

'We must poison our hearts, my ssinssrigg...we must do what is
necessary and cleave us apart before it is too late.'

Choose option 2

'There is no way, (char name) you know that.'

Modifié par BobSmith101, 10 juin 2012 - 08:40 .

[KDD-0063]

jlb524 wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

Actually coding the ugly thing might not be hard since most ugly PCs are made by using the extreme end of a slider. Also certain hair styles like the toilet bowl one and the wrinkled skin options could be marked as ugly.

Yeah...actually you wouldn't need a 'global attractiveness' variable but just one for each LI.

Perhaps Alistair doesn't like females with hairstyle 5?

Zevran doesn't like a lot of facial hair on his men?

Etc.

I think this will quickly come down to 'only a few customization options are allowed' to ensure that the player cannot create an ugly character unless they mod the game (because we still need ugly NPCs).

[KDD-0063]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Honestly I would prefer if every character was bisexual.
Why, because I hate being limited by something as trivial as aesthetic gender.
I call it aesthetic gender because being a man/woman has no effect on gameplay.

I disagree. All bisexuality or subjective sexuality is imo one of the quickest ways to cheapen a character's personality. Even though there's little effect on gameplay if ever, you still identify with your character's gender in game.

Unless you only care about combat and gameplay.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's kind of amusing that people who are saying sexuality does not matter while trying to influence game design for that very reason...

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing, since I stopped reading right there.  The current design is a cast of herosexual LI's.  Who's trying to affect game design?  You see, this is the status quo.  The "Sexuality Matters" er, side??? are the ones trying to change the game to suit them.  To me, since I can't do s/s relationships, at least not m/m anyway, I have made legitimate attempts, but can't, it doesn't matter that if I'm playing diplo mHawke I have to slap Anders down about a romance that I'm not interested in.  I found a more diplomatic solution to one gay friend I have that actually did hit on me when we first met, but if that's what it would have taken, I'd have gone that route.  It didn't require it, so I didn't, but I would have if he'd persisted.  Since I have had RL experience with gay people hitting on me, I don't have a problem believing it could happen in game.

Anders is really a very poor example, since he is far and away different than Awakening, and frankly, although it's not a breaker for me, he probably shouldn't have been used in the first place.  It was probably a logical choice in BioWare's opinion, and I can live with that.  They had their reasons, and that's all I need to know.  However, since he is now an abomination, in the strictest definition of the word, being as he is possessed by a Fade spirit, his sexual preference is a minor change like that doesn't affect him in the least.  Especially since, if I'm running an fHawke, it never comes up.  HIs is also the only time a diploHawke has to slap a LI down to prevent being hit on.  It's interesting to note that my snarky fHawke told him to keep his personal diatribe to himself, they had a strictly professional relationship, and had no Rivalry points added for it.  This game is now in Act II, and his influence meter is at 0, and he's not hitting on me when I have to talk to him for quest lines, and it didn't affect whether or not I got his quest, since it is plot related.

The only time I affect sexual preference of the LI's is on the character creation screen, and I have met none of them.  The only companion I meet immediately is for Varric's narative of what happened that makes Cassandra go "Bull****, that's not what happened", is my sibling, which varies according to whether I'm a mage or not.  Hawke does not directly influence that choice.  I do, based on gender/class when I pick who I'm going to be.  I suspected that there was more to Anders/Karl on my very first Hawke, female, but it is never elaborated on, and much to my dismay, I wound up romancing him.  So I had no real clue that there was more other than the way I read the scene in the Chantry.  I've gone into the reasons this could happen so many times that it's not funny, and not worth repeating, since the people that believe that herosexual takes away from the characters don't find the explanation appealing, and that's fine with me.  I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking, unlike some that believe that their way is the only way.  My current GF and I disagree about gay marriage, I believe they should be allowed to marry, if that's what they want to do, since I believe that my rights stop where somebody else's rights begin.  I'm more than aware that not everybody shares that view.

Clarity edit.

Modifié par robertthebard, 10 juin 2012 - 10:53 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Heres Viconias faq since she was apparently so easy

That reminded me all over again how much I prefer the DA2 romance system over the BG2 system. I never want to play those ridiculous dialogue minigames again. I don't mind the romances being easy - IMHO, the challenge in Dragon Age should be winning against the the Rock Wraith on Nightmare, not divining which set of dialogue choice will eventually get my character laid.

Also, given how much I hated having only one romance option, I'm glad gay and lesbian gamers no longer have to put up with that. (And I say that as someone who liked Anomen. Just not romancing him over and over because he was the only choice.) Given that adding exclusively gay romance options with the same amount of content as the straight/bi romances options is unlikely to happen, this seems to me to be the best system.

[robertthebard]

KDD-0063 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Honestly I would prefer if every character was bisexual.
Why, because I hate being limited by something as trivial as aesthetic gender.
I call it aesthetic gender because being a man/woman has no effect on gameplay.

I disagree. All bisexuality or subjective sexuality is imo one of the quickest ways to cheapen a character's personality. Even though there's little effect on gameplay if ever, you still identify with your character's gender in game.

Unless you only care about combat and gameplay.

I think their point is that it doesn't matter if you're mHawke, or fHawke, the game plays out the same way.  There may be differences in how you approach certain aspects of the game, but it's not like an fHawke is inherently less than an mHawke in any of the game mechanics.  It's not like I imagined my fHawkes to have Serendipity's voice set through the game, but all the way back to Baldur's Gate, they could have, since gender was an aesthetic choice that didn't affect gameplay in the slightest, unlike MMO's where playing a female character might get nicer responses from some of the community.  Let me rephrase that, since it was also true in NWN's, which while MP, was not an MMO.  Players react differently to female characters, but NPC's largely do not.

[Vormaerin]

KDD-0063 wrote...

I disagree. All bisexuality or subjective sexuality is imo one of the quickest ways to cheapen a character's personality. Even though there's little effect on gameplay if ever, you still identify with your character's gender in game.

How does it cheapen anyone's personality?  Most people are not defined primarily by their sexuality.   It is significant to *some* individuals' personalities, but not most people.   Homosexuals don't have different personalities than heterosexuals

A character like Zevran would be affected by a change of his sexual orientation, because its a major element of his person.   Alistair?  Not at all.  He'd be the same shy, fumbling, virginal nitwit whether he was straight or gay.

[AkiKishi]

Andrastee wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Heres Viconias faq since she was apparently so easy

That reminded me all over again how much I prefer the DA2 romance system over the BG2 system. I never want to play those ridiculous dialogue minigames again. I don't mind the romances being easy - IMHO, the challenge in Dragon Age should be winning against the the Rock Wraith on Nightmare, not divining which set of dialogue choice will eventually get my character laid.

Also, given how much I hated having only one romance option, I'm glad gay and lesbian gamers no longer have to put up with that. (And I say that as someone who liked Anomen. Just not romancing him over and over because he was the only choice.) Given that adding exclusively gay romance options with the same amount of content as the straight/bi romances options is unlikely to happen, this seems to me to be the best system.

That's the heart of the matter right there.

[whykikyouwhy]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Not that any of what you said is true, but you’re kind of making KDD’s point for him Robert:

I think their point is that it doesn't matter if you're mHawke, or fHawke, the game plays out the same way. 

Players react differently to female characters, but NPC's largely do not.

Homogeneity for the sake of those who care only about 'romantic choice' is what people are objecting to right? Don’t get me wrong, Bioware’s dilemma is such that I now support their approach to this particular problem, but my sympathy is firmly with them and people like KDD, not those who absolutely insist on having every LI available to a single PC.

The game plays out the same way in that your PC travels/moves through the 3 acts toward the final battle/end events. Those events do not change. With DA:O, the Warden moved through the various quests in order to get to the final battle with the Archdemon. No matter who you picked up as a party member, or who you chose to romance, that end fight was going to happen. Romances did not change the direction of the journey, nor the outcome of the final battle/goal. The gender of your PC is not what triggers or influences the fight with the Archdemon, nor the events at the end of Act 3 in DA2.

Where romances do affect the game, or at least where they can, is in how you role-play, how you perceive your PC within the game world, and how you decide to handle certain situations based on who your PC is involved with. For many, it boils down to having role-playing options, so that in any playthrough, a person can role-play Hawke in this manner versus that. So if there are 4-5 characters marked as LIs for the game, then a player may want to be able to pursue a romance with any one of them based on how they are role-playing Hawke, and how that Hawke perceives the world and the companions.

I continue to see within the argument against "hero-sexual" characters or LIs that are romanceable regardless of PC gender is the notion that by making them available, those characters are cheapened. I still haven't seen anything that validates that notion. The characters are well written, they are unique from one another, they are crafted with attention to detail such as small mannerisms, curses uttered when frustrated, a sense of humor that is indicative of the person, awkwardness in certain situations, etc. Those are all hallmarks of each companion. They resonate as individuals. 

@Vormaerin said it quite well (and I will butcher it in paraphrasing here...) - sexuality is not always a dominate aspect of a person's identity or being. It's not always obvious, it's not always worn on the sleeve. And so, not every character (or person IRL) should be assessed or judged on that one aspect of self. To say that a character is less or watered down or what have you beause that aspect of identity is not declared or outwardly obvious doesn't seem fair at all when there is so much more about that character that speaks to his/her individual identity, and so much more that players get to bear witness and react to. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 10 juin 2012 - 12:48 .

[HanErlik]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Heres Viconias faq since she was apparently so easy

That reminded me all over again how much I prefer the DA2 romance system over the BG2 system. I never want to play those ridiculous dialogue minigames again. I don't mind the romances being easy - IMHO, the challenge in Dragon Age should be winning against the the Rock Wraith on Nightmare, not divining which set of dialogue choice will eventually get my character laid.

Also, given how much I hated having only one romance option, I'm glad gay and lesbian gamers no longer have to put up with that. (And I say that as someone who liked Anomen. Just not romancing him over and over because he was the only choice.) Given that adding exclusively gay romance options with the same amount of content as the straight/bi romances options is unlikely to happen, this seems to me to be the best system.

That's the heart of the matter right there.

I think MMORPGs and ARPGs ruined the roleplaying concept and RP gamer identity.

Modifié par HanErlik, 10 juin 2012 - 12:14 .