930 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

Deathbringer898 wrote...

You could always make sexual orientation part of the character creation.

I already do. I fully flesh out my character during creation. I don't need a button on a menu to do that.

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Do you have any examples from DA2 when this happened with a LI? You listed the Fenris as an example of something that would be bad (which it would be), but not a concrete example from the game.

I only skimmed the last pages so I apologies if you have answered this already.

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

Modifié par wsandista, 10 juin 2012 - 11:19 .

[Abispa]

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

Thank you for confirming that "bi" LIs in DA is NOT the same as the love drones of Skyrim. I find it completely "realistic" that a bisexual male might treat male and female lovers differently. Only Fenris treats both genders the same (his concern is magic), the others display nuances in their behavior based on the gender of their lovers. Isabela is more possessive of female Hawke, but doesn't mind if male Hawke hits on people with her watching. Merrill wants to follow male Hawke, but wants to BE female Hawke. Four LIs, with a few tweaks, give you eight romances (or seven if you want to take away one of Fenris'). How each character displays their sexuality is different, and in keeping with their characterization.

Modifié par Abispa, 10 juin 2012 - 11:56 .

[Vormaerin]

Fandango9641 wrote...

I'm trying to find a little middle ground here, but if you want to be pedantic I’d suggest you put a little more effort into understanding the points others have made across the various threads on this subject before you go wagging your finger at me.

Well, I wasn't intending to wag a finger at you.  

It just seems like the status quo pretty much is the middle ground.   In DA2, there is three characters with defined sexuality (Avelline, Sebastian, Isabella), two characters whose sexuality changes based on the PC (Merrill, Fenris), one character with unspecified sexuality (Varric), and then Anders, who could either be defined bi or be herosexual, which being a matter of dispute.

So when I see arguments (not yours particularly, but the thread title and many other posters') opposing  "All bi" romances or arguing that the current system prevents characters whose sexuality is a major element of their personality, I literally cannot grasp what they are talking about.  Its not part of the game now.  Its not, as far as I am aware, planned to be part of the game.

It feels like we are being asked to split the difference on field position when one side is claiming their marker is in the stands behind their goal line.

I'd like more, and more varied, NPC interactions, whether romances, friendships, rivalries, or enemies; party and non party.  But there are limits to what the Devs can do, as you know.   When the devs put in a bazillion romances (like ME), they don't get as much individual attention.   When they put in only a few, highly detailed gender/race specified relationships, lots of people are left out of the romances or have to play ones they don't like.   Its never going to be perfect until we have some kind of star trek level super computers to run the games.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 juin 2012 - 12:03 .

[wsandista]

TJX2045 wrote...

I mentioned that I play different ways too, I just have a preference like everyone else.  I don't know why you took offense to this as if I said you only play one way.  I was just reinforcing what you mentioned.

I got testy because it seems everytime I post my opinion I get b!tched at by people. I apologize if you took any offense.

This is more along the lines of the new relationship system that needed revision.  I agree with you in the idea that DA2's Friendship/Rivalry was not well implemented especially with some of the character's core beliefs, but when that is polished up and fixed, then what?  Are they still sextoys once they can reject the player?  I don't see all-bi as affecting that.  I see the replacement of the old approval system with the friendship/rivalry one as the issue.

Even in the approval system if the PC did something that went against the LIs core beliefs, they would still be interested in the PC.

And I make the rebuttal that LI characters ARE UNIFORM from beginning to the end.  No matter what you do, Fenris still hates mages.  No matter what you do, Anders does the same thing.  No matter what you do, Merrill will still try to accomplish her goal, with or without you.  No matter what, Isabela always takes the artifact and gets pissed when you try to tell her to give it back.

The world was not made to accomodate the PC.  The LI's are made so that players can enjoy romancing a character they identify with or particularly enjoy more than the rest.  Sure I prefer Carver more than Bethany because he was a more interesting character storywise, but does that mean that I'm going to stop playing anything other than mage because I'll get stuck with Bethany instead? No.

The very idea of herosexual(where the LI's orientation depends on the PC's gender) changes the characters to fit the PC. Their personalities do not change, but who they are interested in as sexual partners dos. that is a change, one that hinges on PC gender.

Also, like I said earlier, the PC's class =/= the PC's sexuality.

Of course it isn't exactly equal, but both are up to the player and both determine how the PC will act in certain situations.

Yes, he would.  The same reason that Kaidan is still the same person but shows affection in a different way.  He's still the same personality and the same person you have known over the years.  The only difference is who your PC is.  I think the issue you may have is something I've stated before: "the typical society thought process that all straight people must act this way or all LGBT people must act this way."

I can tell you now there are plenty people you would think are one sexuality but are the complete opposite.  It's society's association of little nuances and habits that cause stereotypes with people of one sexuality or another.

And Anders is a good example of this.  A stereotype is that if he was straight he would be interested in dogs, not so overly obsessed with his cat nor call it Ser Pouncealot.  I heard no one complaining about his character then especially since he's still just as sarcastic and smart alecky in DA2, but more gloom and doom because he let a spirit use his body as a host.  It would've been the same if he was straight.  The whole thing about "their character would be different if they were strictly this or that" is pure conjecture based on years of the media stereotyping each sexuality.

Personality and sexuality are mutually exclusive, as I believe I have said on this thread. I am not arguing that.

I am arguing that Cortez would not be the same person if his sexual orientation was different. He would have the same personality, but he would also be interested in women. In the vanilla ME3 Cortez is not interested in women, just as Traynor isn't interested in men. They would not be the same if there sexual orientation was changed because they would respond differently than how they do.

So Cortez saying "I'm not into girls" or Traynor saying "I'm not into men" establishes their personality?  That's just their attitude towards certain people.

For example, if a straight guy tells a gay guy "I'm not into men," does that suddenly change who he was before he was hit on?  That's the vibe I'm getting from this.

Then you are not correctly interpreting my statements.

Overall the whole idea that sexuality restrictions would make the characters "more in-depth" is subjective.  There are some characters who are still ridiculously shallow.  Look at Allers in ME3.  She's bi, but 10x more shallow than Zevran or Leliana.

Does someone being bisexual make them shallow?

I never said that. The answer is no, it does not make them shallow. The difference between a bi-sexual and herosexual is that the bisexual's orientation is firmly established. Zevran is bi throughout all playthroughs, while a herosexual LI would not be. If you are reading my arguments as condemning ANY sexuality as being shallow,then you are misreading them.

I haven't heard anyone complaining about Tali or Garrus romances being added in ME2 and ME3 because the fans wanted to romance them.  That was all fanservice too.  Is it a problem when romances are added for the fans who love their game and support them and pay for the product?

I have.
When it is solely intended as fanservice, then yes it is a problem.

Let me also add that your first comment works both ways.  "They shouldn't take away choices simply to accomodate certain PCs," which is what the non-all-bi method does.

No it does not. It limits NPC reaction not PC choice. I don't control the NPCs, only the PC.

I believe the PC should be able to hit on any LI, but if the LI isn't interested for whatever reason get shot down.

Modifié par wsandista, 11 juin 2012 - 12:12 .

[wsandista]

Abispa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

Thank you for confirming that "bi" LIs in DA is NOT the same as the love drones of Skyrim. I find it completely "realistic" that a bisexual male might treat male and female lovers differently. Only Fenris treats both genders the same (his concern is magic), the others display nuances in their behavior based on the gender of their lovers. Isabela is more possessive of female Hawke, but doesn't mind if male Hawke hits on people with her watching. Merrill wants to follow male Hawke, but wants to BE female Hawke. Four LIs, with a few tweaks, give you eight romances (or seven if you want to take away one of Fenris'). How each character displays their sexuality is different, and in keeping with their characterization.

At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

[robertthebard]

wsandista wrote...

Abispa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

Thank you for confirming that "bi" LIs in DA is NOT the same as the love drones of Skyrim. I find it completely "realistic" that a bisexual male might treat male and female lovers differently. Only Fenris treats both genders the same (his concern is magic), the others display nuances in their behavior based on the gender of their lovers. Isabela is more possessive of female Hawke, but doesn't mind if male Hawke hits on people with her watching. Merrill wants to follow male Hawke, but wants to BE female Hawke. Four LIs, with a few tweaks, give you eight romances (or seven if you want to take away one of Fenris'). How each character displays their sexuality is different, and in keeping with their characterization.

At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

[wsandista]

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

Thank you for confirming that "bi" LIs in DA is NOT the same as the love drones of Skyrim. I find it completely "realistic" that a bisexual male might treat male and female lovers differently. Only Fenris treats both genders the same (his concern is magic), the others display nuances in their behavior based on the gender of their lovers. Isabela is more possessive of female Hawke, but doesn't mind if male Hawke hits on people with her watching. Merrill wants to follow male Hawke, but wants to BE female Hawke. Four LIs, with a few tweaks, give you eight romances (or seven if you want to take away one of Fenris'). How each character displays their sexuality is different, and in keeping with their characterization.

Nope. I believe he talks about sex differently with female and male Hawke. And FemHawke asks different questions. The "have you recalled having sex" or however the heck it's worded is different. It's slight and hardly noticeable but it's there. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juin 2012 - 12:37 .

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

You really don't know why he'd think to test the waters with a male while just being blunt with a female? 

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

You really don't know why he'd think to test the waters with a male while just being blunt with a female? 

Why would he want to know if one gender is interested at that point and time but not the other?

[Ryzaki]

Probably because male and male relationships aren't as common in thedas as male and female.

And actually he plays the "STAY FROM ME I'M BAD FOR YOU!" Edward Cullen act with FemHawke. So yeah...that may also play a part.

Granted he does the same to dude Hawke but it's much later in the romance. Why I dunno. But that's how he acts.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juin 2012 - 12:43 .

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

Probably because male and male relationships aren't as common in thedas as male and female.

And actually he plays the "STAY FROM ME I'M BAD FOR YOU!" Edward Cullen act with FemHawke. So yeah...that may also play a part.

True. I can't remember if the other LIs did anything similar.

[robertthebard]

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

Because he might be a bit embarrassed to hit on mHawke if mHawke isn't amenable.  With fHawke, he feels he can safely assume that she's heterosexual, everybody tends to make that assumption a lot, but it's a whole other ball game assuming someone is gay, or bisexual.  So he "tests the waters" with mHawke so as to decide whether he should hit on him or not.  Understand that I am not trying to insert that this is exactly what he is doing, I didn't write it, so I don't know, but it is logical, and realistic.

[TJX2045]

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

Because he might be a bit embarrassed to hit on mHawke if mHawke isn't amenable.  With fHawke, he feels he can safely assume that she's heterosexual, everybody tends to make that assumption a lot, but it's a whole other ball game assuming someone is gay, or bisexual.  So he "tests the waters" with mHawke so as to decide whether he should hit on him or not.  Understand that I am not trying to insert that this is exactly what he is doing, I didn't write it, so I don't know, but it is logical, and realistic.

I don't remember if I mentioned this in the thread or not, but if you choose the first heart icon you get with Anders when you flirt with him as a MHawke RIGHT AFTER the Templar fight, he says something along the lines of "I have not met a man who speaks so openly, but you are not a typical man."

To me that says Anders was afraid to be forward for fear of rejection and not being accepted and once he realized MHawke is forward with him, he loosens up a bit.

[wsandista]

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

wsandista wrote...


At that point the PC is not romancing Anders though. Both encounters my party varied in gender, but I got two seperate reactions from Anders.

I touched on this in another thread, and I believe his behavior in that scenario isn't any different than any other person trying to get laid.  He tells the male PC about Karl to "check the water", if the PC doesn't shut him down, then he feels like he can try to pursue a relationship beyond professional.  With the female PC, he doesn't feel that revealing his relationship with Karl will help his chances, so he doesn't mention it.  It is more consistent with real life than people seem to think.

Why would he "test the waters" with one gender and not the other then?

Because he might be a bit embarrassed to hit on mHawke if mHawke isn't amenable.  With fHawke, he feels he can safely assume that she's heterosexual, everybody tends to make that assumption a lot, but it's a whole other ball game assuming someone is gay, or bisexual.  So he "tests the waters" with mHawke so as to decide whether he should hit on him or not.  Understand that I am not trying to insert that this is exactly what he is doing, I didn't write it, so I don't know, but it is logical, and realistic.

I meant why would he test the waters with a male and not a female at that particular time? None of the other LIs do that as far as I know.

[Ryzaki]

Aren't you the one who wanted LIs to treat different Hawke differently? Why is Anders doing this a problem now?

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aren't you the one who wanted LIs to treat different Hawke differently? Why is Anders doing this a problem now?

I think that was Cultist.

[robertthebard]

wsandista wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Because he might be a bit embarrassed to hit on mHawke if mHawke isn't amenable.  With fHawke, he feels he can safely assume that she's heterosexual, everybody tends to make that assumption a lot, but it's a whole other ball game assuming someone is gay, or bisexual.  So he "tests the waters" with mHawke so as to decide whether he should hit on him or not.  Understand that I am not trying to insert that this is exactly what he is doing, I didn't write it, so I don't know, but it is logical, and realistic.

I meant why would he test the waters with a male and not a female at that particular time? None of the other LIs do that as far as I know.

I'd guess it's for the same reason that he has to be either shut down from the very beginning, or he won't take a hint.  I really have no idea why he does 1/2 the stuff he does.  However, being all flirty was a carry over from Awakening, so it could just be tied to who he is.

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aren't you the one who wanted LIs to treat different Hawke differently? Why is Anders doing this a problem now?

I think that was Cultist.

Hm. In that case sorry. Getting my arguements mixed up.

[Allan Schumacher]

Filament wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

The second way doesn't involve him changing, unless the different ways you address different people, whether based on sex, status, etc, all constitute fundamental changes to your personality too.

It does mean, however, that you can only conclude that Anders is bisexual with out of game metaknowledge.

If you look at any individual playthrough as being self-contained, information learned in one "alternate universe" doesn't mean it's true in a different alternate universe.

[Alessa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Filament wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The Anders situation. He tells males about his relationship with Karl while he doesn't tell females. This either mean he did not have a relationship with Karl when PC is female, or he does not want to tell people about Karl if the PC isn't male. Either way he changes depending on PC gender.

The second way doesn't involve him changing, unless the different ways you address different people, whether based on sex, status, etc, all constitute fundamental changes to your personality too.

It does mean, however, that you can only conclude that Anders is bisexual with out of game metaknowledge.

If you look at any individual playthrough as being self-contained, information learned in one "alternate universe" doesn't mean it's true in a different alternate universe.

So, if I get you right, at a playthrough as female Hawke, his relationship with Karl is not true. That's exactly the impression that I got during my playthroughs as female Hawke, too.

[Dean_the_Young]

While I agree/concede that Anders' bisexuality is done right in that his bisexuality isn't flaunted as much as his Hawke-sexuality, I'd still make the case that not all characters should be bisexual by default... unless their bisexuality IS a character trait of note.

Sexuality can be a distinct part of a character's identity and appeal, and has a value that shouldn't be ignored. As much as some people didn't like STEEEEEVE!!! in ME3, I feel that the fact that he was a gay... widower? He-Widow?, point is, his homosexuality put a rarely seen approach on the character. Both my fem-Shep and male-Shep got along great with him from different directions, but had Steve been just as open to a romance with Fem-Shep it just wouldn't have been the same Steve.

That's not to say that bisexuality is bad: one of my favorite characters from DA2 was Isabella. She was a tramp done right, no apologies, and her sexuality was such a part of her that being bi was a natural part of her character. Similarly with Leliana vs Morrigan in DAO: Lelliana's history and playful character played naturally with her bisexuality, while Morrigan was such the heteroerotic force of nature that being monosexual fit her.

It's not that I don't see the appeal of bisexual characters, but sexuality and sexual identity are too valuable to just homogenize across a cast of love interests, if that makes sense.

[Allan Schumacher]

[quote]Alessa-00 wrote...

It does mean, however, that you can only conclude that Anders is bisexual with out of game metaknowledge.

If you look at any individual playthrough as being self-contained, information learned in one "alternate universe" doesn't mean it's true in a different alternate universe.

[/quote]

So, if I get you right, at a playthrough as female Hawke, his relationship with Karl is not true. That's exactly the impression that I got during my playthroughs as female Hawke, too.

[/quote]

I can't speak on behalf of what the writers were intending, but it's what I noticed.  I initially found myself going "it seems a bit weird for all the character's to be bisexual..." but when I looked deeper I realized that it was only metaknowledge that makes me think that.

For someone that only plays the game once, I think it'd be a fair assessment if someone did not conclude that Anders was bisexual.


[quote]Sexuality can be a distinct part of a character's identity and appeal,
and has a value that shouldn't be ignored. As much as some people didn't
like STEEEEEVE!!! in ME3, I feel that the fact that he was a gay...
widower? He-Widow?, point is, his homosexuality put a rarely seen
approach on the character. Both my fem-Shep and male-Shep got along
great with him from different directions, but had Steve been just as
open to a romance with Fem-Shep it just wouldn't have been the same
Steve.[/quote]

Fair point.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 11 juin 2012 - 07:49 .

[Abispa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not that I don't see the appeal of bisexual characters, but sexuality and sexual identity are too valuable to just homogenize across a cast of love interests, if that makes sense.

Hero-sexuality may not be realistic, but having seen how a large cast of exclusive LIs were handled in ME3, leaving each LI fan base feeling cheated on quality time, I'd have to say that I prefer the DA2 method. Romances can be fun, but they should NEVER be the primary focus of Dragon Age or ANY RPG game based on action and adventure. As Quething pointed out earlier, the "all-bi" approach allowed everyone role playing any gender or persuasion to romance a plot-important character, not a potentially throw-away character like Leliana or Zevran, whom you can ignore or kill immediately in DA:O.

As most critics have said to argue AGAINST hero-sexuality, this is NOT a dating sim. The primary focus of game is not to get your hero laid. LIs are nothing more than accessories for our characters, used by the player for customization. Anyone who argues otherwise really needs to put the game down and take part in the real world once and a while. But with the "all-bi" method allowing more LI choices with fewer characters, they characters are given more depth and more relevance WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS FOR THE GAME. Anders, even if you don't romance him, will shatter the Chantry's control of mages. Merrill, whether you romance her or not, will continue to work on the mirror, with or without your blessing. Isabela will contine to be Isabela and ****** off a lot of Qunari. And Fenris will brood like nobody's business.