930 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

While I agree/concede that Anders' bisexuality is done right in that his bisexuality isn't flaunted as much as his Hawke-sexuality, I'd still make the case that not all characters should be bisexual by default... unless their bisexuality IS a character trait of note.

Sexuality can be a distinct part of a character's identity and appeal, and has a value that shouldn't be ignored. As much as some people didn't like STEEEEEVE!!! in ME3, I feel that the fact that he was a gay... widower? He-Widow?, point is, his homosexuality put a rarely seen approach on the character. Both my fem-Shep and male-Shep got along great with him from different directions, but had Steve been just as open to a romance with Fem-Shep it just wouldn't have been the same Steve.

That's not to say that bisexuality is bad: one of my favorite characters from DA2 was Isabella. She was a tramp done right, no apologies, and her sexuality was such a part of her that being bi was a natural part of her character. Similarly with Leliana vs Morrigan in DAO: Lelliana's history and playful character played naturally with her bisexuality, while Morrigan was such the heteroerotic force of nature that being monosexual fit her.

It's not that I don't see the appeal of bisexual characters, but sexuality and sexual identity are too valuable to just homogenize across a cast of love interests, if that makes sense.

This is still the angle of the discussion that gives me problems, as I don't see any of the characters, other than Isabela, as bi.  The only companions that will have a sexual relationship with each other, if neither is romanced, are Fenris and Isabela.  No matter which Hawke it is.  This isn't an indication of bisexuality.  It's not like Isabela will have a fling with Merrill if you're romancing Fenris, nor will Fenris have a fling with Anders if you're romancing Isabela.  So the only companion sexual relationship is hetero, and yet everyone wants to say they are bi.

Thus, the only way that any of them can be considered bi, barring Isabela is metagame.  There is nothing in their behavior to indicate that they will go either way in an individual playthrough, and since individual playthroughs have no bearing on each other, barring metagame knowledge, I can't seem to wrap my head around the concept.  If either, or all, of the above combinations were possible in game, I could buy them being bi, but since they aren't, I just can't.

[Vormaerin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not that I don't see the appeal of bisexual characters, but sexuality and sexual identity are too valuable to just homogenize across a cast of love interests, if that makes sense.

I suppose that would make sense....if it had ever happened.  But it hasn't.

DA2 had:

"Defined straight:"  Sebastian, Avelline
"Defined Bisexual:"  Isabella
"Undefined:"  Varric
"Straight OR Gay, depending;"  Merrill, Fenris
"Herosexual or defined bi, unclear;"  Anders

Bethany makes some pretty obvious "I like men" comments and seems kind of weirded out by Isabella's bisexuality, so I think we can safely say she's straight.    Don't know about Carver, since I didn't play a mage ever.

So... at most 3 of 8 party members are not defined sexually?     

Even if you limit it only to "romance achievement" NPCs, its at most 3 of 5 that are "herosexual" instead of having a defined one.

That's hardly ignoring the supposed importance of sexuality in character identity.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Agreed. Just because the LIs are all available to Hawke doesn't make them generic or watered down fake dolls instead of the uber character independent LIs of origin (nevermind that they were just as easily bent to the player's whims). I'm really sick of that argument.

[robertthebard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Agreed. Just because the LIs are all available to Hawke doesn't make them generic or watered down fake dolls instead of the uber character independent LIs of origin (nevermind that they were just as easily bent to the player's whims). I'm really sick of that argument.

I'll tell you what surprised me more than almost anything, Anders' Act III thing notwithstanding, was the reactions of the companions to some of the gifts.  It was just as easy to gain Rivalry with them as Friendship, depending on how you spoke to them, and, for example, Aveline's reaction was one of those "What did I say?" moments, and my initial reaction was probably priceless.  I was glad that there wasn't an overabundance of gifts, as I too felt that you could just as easily buy approval from the DA: O companions as earn it.

[Wulfram]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's not to say that bisexuality is bad: one of my favorite characters from DA2 was Isabella. She was a tramp done right, no apologies, and her sexuality was such a part of her that being bi was a natural part of her character. Similarly with Leliana vs Morrigan in DAO: Lelliana's history and playful character played naturally with her bisexuality, while Morrigan was such the heteroerotic force of nature that being monosexual fit her.

I'd say that one of the chief virtues of the current approach is that it gives us bisexual characters which whose personality doesn't "fit" their orientation.  Or rather doesn't fit the stereotypes.

Laying aside the previous characterisation in Origins for a moment, I'd say there's no particular reason Isabela should be more likely to be bi than Merrill .  Yet if only one of them was going to be, then I'm pretty confident that in 9 out of 10 games, it would be the Isabela type character, and not the Merrill type.  And I think that's unfortunate.

Particularly for the people looking for a lesbian romance who prefer Merrills to Isabelas, I guess

edit:  You can tell Anders bisexual in a single playthrough if you previously played Awakening, then play GentlemanHawke.  Not to mention the chat with Isabela about that nice electricity thing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 juin 2012 - 10:30 .

[Blacklash93]

Wulfram wrote...
I'd say that one of the chief virtues of the current approach is that it gives us bisexual characters which whose personality doesn't "fit" their orientation.  Or rather doesn't fit the stereotypes.

I agree. I don't see why characters need to have sexualities that "fit" or "natuarally extend" their personalities. You're essentially talking stereotypes there and not all people fit them in any group. In fact in most groups stereotypes are usually, by definition, vastly untrue. Do we really need or want every bi companion to be subject to some sexually adventurous past or have to mention previous relationships to justify their attractions? If this series is going to go on as long as intended that's going to end up a contrived pattern.

I could have easily seen Morrigan as a bisexual stereotype looking at the basic concept of her character (a morally ambiguous, sexually greedy and playful witch who grew up away from societal norms), for instance, yet she wasn't. Anyone can have her personality and have any orientation.

You can tell Anders bisexual in a single playthrough if you previously played Awakening, then play GentlemanHawke. Not to mention the chat with Isabela about that nice electricity thing.

He kinda-sorta makes a suggestive comment (with an equally suggestive tone) to Nathaniel in Awakening, too. Though that doesn't necessarily mean he generally likes men. I mean who honestly can resist Nathaniel and dat voice?

If you look at any individual playthrough as being self-contained, information learned in one "alternate universe" doesn't mean it's true in a different alternate universe.

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told. The only 'alternate universe' dynamic going on here is what information the they choose to share about themselves. Anders doesn't talk about Karl to FemHawke because he doesn't want her to get the idea he's not interested or perhaps even put her off.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 juin 2012 - 11:32 .

[Apathy1989]

Vormaerin wrote...

Bethany makes some pretty obvious "I like men" comments and seems kind of weirded out by Isabella's bisexuality, so I think we can safely say she's straight.    Don't know about Carver, since I didn't play a mage ever.

Carver is straight. He had a girl back in Farelden, and messes around in Kirkwall. Isabela teases him about it. He also sort-of flirts with Merrill, although she is clueless.

Once he comes back after act 3 he also does a sexy rendition of the chant for isabela, which pisses off Sebastian. Hilarious. 

[Abispa]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I could have easily seen Morrigan as a bisexual stereotype looking at the basic concept of her character (a morally ambiguous, sexually greedy and playful witch who grew up away from societal norms), for instance, yet she wasn't. Anyone can have her personality and have any orientation.

Which is why "all-bi" doesn't matter. Whether or not a character likes a particular gender shouldn't effect his/her place in an RPG where romance is not the primary focus. Unless the writers are convinced that character should be a particular orientation for story purposes, there is no reason why s/he shouldn't be hero-sexual since the only reason for that option to exist for a character is because s/he was meant to accessorize the hero. That has ALWAYS been true of LIs, even when they were [rolls eyes] straight and "realistic."

I could be wrong, and I hope a Bioware moderator corrects me if I am, but I don't think Morrigan was "straight" in order to defy some stereotype. From writer posts I've seen in previous threads, I've always gotten the impression that the writers didn't make Alistair or Morrigan open to s/s is because they met their artificial quota with Leliana and Zevran. Not realistic either, but apparently such a move gives them "integrity." I believe Gaider even said that Alistair very easily have been "bi."

Moderators, if anything I've said is wrong, feel free to correct me. I have no idea how to look up ancient posts on threads I've forgotten the names of.

[Abispa]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told. The only 'alternate universe' dynamic going on here is what information the they choose to share about themselves. Anders doesn't talk about Karl to FemHawke because he doesn't want her to get the idea he's not interested or perhaps even put her off.

I'm pretty sure I read that too. But l do believe it is intentially vague in the game so that the player can head canon them as "straight" or "gay" exclusives [you know, role play their own game], and perhaps even go over the heads of players who only play one gender and don't spend all day reading threads dissect every aspect of the game.

Modifié par Abispa, 11 juin 2012 - 11:37 .

[Abispa]

Ryzaki wrote...

Agreed. Just because the LIs are all available to Hawke doesn't make them generic or watered down fake dolls instead of the uber character independent LIs of origin (nevermind that they were just as easily bent to the player's whims). I'm really sick of that argument.

ALISTAIR -- I find Morrigan repulsive!
WARDEN -- Go have sex with her. Don't pull out.
ALISTAIR -- Okay.

LOGHAIN -- So, Warden, we've been mortal enemies for most of the game and have worked together for only five minutes.
WARDEN -- Yes. You know that goth chick you barely know?
LOGHAIN -- Yes.
WARDEN -- Go have sex with her. Don't pull out.
LOGHAIN -- Since it will show I'm straight, I'll gladly go maintain my integrity.

Modifié par Abispa, 11 juin 2012 - 11:42 .

[Vormaerin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told.

He may have said that, but I'd like to read it myself.

Besides which, its wrong even if he actually said it.  Sebastian is not bisexual.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told.

He may have said that, but I'd like to read it myself.

Besides which, its wrong even if he actually said it.  Sebastian is not bisexual.

Is it concrete that Sebastian is a true LI? I honestly don't know what the situation with him is.
Not only that, but he is DLC, so he doesn't exist in some peoples games.

[Abispa]

wsandista wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told.

He may have said that, but I'd like to read it myself.

Besides which, its wrong even if he actually said it.  Sebastian is not bisexual.

Is it concrete that Sebastian is a true LI? I honestly don't know what the situation with him is.
Not only that, but he is DLC, so he doesn't exist in some peoples games.

It depends how you define "LI." If expressing love for the hero and committing to her (as a celebate religious spouse, friendship; or claimed as a future princes, rivalry), then he is a LI. If you need a sex scene, then no, he isn't.

[Blacklash93]

Abispa wrote...
I've always gotten the impression that the writers didn't make Alistair or Morrigan open to s/s is because they met their artificial quota with Leliana and Zevran.

Here's the thing with quotas: RPG companions are founded on them. We need a good/evil, lawful/chaotic quota. The male/female quota. The fun/serious companion quota. The warrior/rogue/mage quota. The "backround" and "culture" quotas where we get Orlesians, Antivans, and Qunari all in an unilkely place. It goes on and on and it's all for the sake of a diverse and interesting cast that appeals to as many people as possible. Writers make these quotas for that express purpose.

I believe "all bi" romances defeats that aspect of diversity and makes the cast less unique, even if just a little bit. It's the opposite effect of a quota.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Is it concrete that Sebastian is a true LI? I honestly don't know what the situation with him is.
Not only that, but he is DLC, so he doesn't exist in some peoples games.

I don't think you can get the achievement, if that's your definition.  If the definition has to do with story arcs and heart icons, then yes.

But the DLC argument is silly, imho.  If I never play a mHawke, then Merrill's never straight in any of my games....

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Agreed. Just because the LIs are all available to Hawke doesn't make them generic or watered down fake dolls instead of the uber character independent LIs of origin (nevermind that they were just as easily bent to the player's whims). I'm really sick of that argument.

ALISTAIR -- I find Morrigan repulsive!
WARDEN -- Go have sex with her. Don't pull out.
ALISTAIR -- Okay.

LOGHAIN -- So, Warden, we've been mortal enemies for most of the game and have worked together for only five minutes.
WARDEN -- Yes. You know that goth chick you barely know?
LOGHAIN -- Yes.
WARDEN -- Go have sex with her. Don't pull out.
LOGHAIN -- Since it will show I'm straight, I'll gladly go maintain my integrity.

The fact that you can convince an Alistair that hates your warden and Morrigan to sleep with her and not to mentin Loghain...that will never stop confusing me.

Persuade's a bloody Jedi Mind Trick is what it is.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2012 - 12:03 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Is it concrete that Sebastian is a true LI? I honestly don't know what the situation with him is.
Not only that, but he is DLC, so he doesn't exist in some peoples games.

I don't think you can get the achievement, if that's your definition.  If the definition has to do with story arcs and heart icons, then yes.

No I meant in regards to the story. I don't remember if Sebastian gets the same epilogue sentence the other LIs got.

But the DLC argument is silly, imho.  If I never play a mHawke, then Merrill's never straight in any of my games....

That is a false equivalency. If the player doesn't have the DLC sebastian NEVER meets Hawke.

If I don't have Legacy, then super-darkspawn is never discovered by Hawke. If I don't have MotA Hawke never goes to Orlais and kills the French guy.

Anyways Merrill's Sexuality isn't ever really confirmed one way or the other as I understand.

[SirGladiator]

I always found Bethany's curiosity about what its like to sleep with women, combined with her later relationship (the nature of which is undefined, but it seemed to be rather close) with that female mage you rescue in act 2, to be all the evidence I needed to imagine they were a couple, and that I was playing matchmaker by sending her back to the tower to be with Bethany. It was rather fun .

[CuriousArtemis]

Disagree; I want them all bisexual so my PC can date them no matter how I play him/her

Tired of this stupid old argument; move on to something else. Or play one of the million and one other games that cater to straight people.

[wsandista]

motomotogirl wrote...

Disagree; I want them all bisexual so my PC can date them no matter how I play him/her

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?
How about romancing Leliana after defiling the sacred ashes right in front of her?

[Blacklash93]

wsandista wrote...

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?

That actually is possible, but there are a few specific requirements.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?
How about romancing Leliana after defiling the sacred ashes right in front of her?

Yay, way to pick nits to conflate dissimilar issues.   She clearly meant gender with that comment.   Your examples are actually excellent fo showing something that is important and should be a romance "failure" point.   Because those things are central to those characters' personalities.    Anders is a whiny puke obsessed with terrorist style justice whether he's gay or straight.   Denying the RP opportunity over something minor is unnecessary.  There are enough issues and pitfalls in the romances over issues that are actually important to who the characters are.

[robertthebard]

wsandista wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Disagree; I want them all bisexual so my PC can date them no matter how I play him/her

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?
How about romancing Leliana after defiling the sacred ashes right in front of her?

I actually did that during my last romance with her, and didn't even drop a lot of approval, with a good strong intimidate check.  Of course, I only did it for the missing achievements, and went back to my just prior save and did the whole thing again, but I did it.

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Disagree; I want them all bisexual so my PC can date them no matter how I play him/her

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?
How about romancing Leliana after defiling the sacred ashes right in front of her?

Um...

You can do that. Both of those. LOLOLOLOL

The former makes sense if you play the Rivalry mance to its conclusion and the latter...well you just have to Harden Leliana and then pass the intimidation check. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2012 - 01:25 .