930 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I believe "all bi" romances defeats that aspect of diversity and makes the cast less unique, even if just a little bit. It's the opposite effect of a quota.

Again, if there is some aspect of the game that is effected by making a character exclusive to one persuasion, I'd agree with you. If writers were FORCED to change a character's sexuality to "bi" against their will, I'd agree with you. If the characters in DA2 lacked diversity, I'd agree with you. Unless YOU are a players who DEMANDS to play a hero of every persuasion, and indeed does so, and wants a totally different LI exclusive to each every time you play, your argument doesn't sway me IN THE SLIGHTEST.

Unless you metagame, your Hawkes would NEVER know that other Hawkes have different options with the same character. If you are a straight male, you have two options for romance, just like in DA:O. The difference is that those playing s/s Hawkes now have two as well. Important ones, not "light" romances that are easily discarded and have no real relevence to the game. Unless you worry about the bisexual option being exploited by someone playing a lesbian, it shouldn't matter.

Eight romances with four party members, which allows the other half of the squad to be developed as something other than LIs. THAT is diversity that people who don't want  DA to become a "dating sim" should be happy about.

EDIT: What the hell is happening to my grammar?

Modifié par Abispa, 12 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[robertthebard]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All romancable companions in DA2 are canonically bisexual per Gaider as I'm told. The only 'alternate universe' dynamic going on here is what information the they choose to share about themselves. Anders doesn't talk about Karl to FemHawke because he doesn't want her to get the idea he's not interested or perhaps even put her off.

Actually, what he said is that they are all herosexual.

http://social.biowar...724520#11788060

[Iakus]

Here's a question:

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was enough resources for 6 LIs, with a mix of romances (o/s, bi, and s/s), would it be a terrible thing if everyone had 4 options, but not all the same options?

Keep in mind that these are all full romances, as fleshed out as anything from DAO or DA2

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

Here's a question:

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was enough resources for 6 LIs, with a mix of romances (o/s, bi, and s/s), would it be a terrible thing if everyone had 4 options, but not all the same options?

Keep in mind that these are all full romances, as fleshed out as anything from DAO or DA2

It wouldn't bother me in the least bit.  However, I think the problem they ran into were the "I can't romance Alistair as an mWarden, or Morrigan as an fWarden.  I think that's why they decided to go this route with the romances.

[Abispa]

iakus wrote...

Here's a question:

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was enough resources for 6 LIs, with a mix of romances (o/s, bi, and s/s), would it be a terrible thing if everyone had 4 options, but not all the same options?

Keep in mind that these are all full romances, as fleshed out as anything from DAO or DA2

Too many LIs gives us ME2 & ME3, at least as it stands now. I agree with Gaider a huge cast with multiple options, INCLUDING exclusives, would be preferable, but I don't see that ever happening. Such a budget would allow us to do something I would REALLY like to see in modern RPGs, the ability for the hero to pick a core party from a cast of dozens so s/he can be TRULY good/evil and build a party to match.

[Abispa]

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Here's a question:

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was enough resources for 6 LIs, with a mix of romances (o/s, bi, and s/s), would it be a terrible thing if everyone had 4 options, but not all the same options?

Keep in mind that these are all full romances, as fleshed out as anything from DAO or DA2

It wouldn't bother me in the least bit.  However, I think the problem they ran into were the "I can't romance Alistair as an mWarden, or Morrigan as an fWarden.  I think that's why they decided to go this route with the romances.

I don't think that was the real motivator. You still can't romance certain popular party members, including Aveline and Varric, the most mentally stable characters in the game. The problem was that s/s Wardens had onlly the randy rogues, who could be easily killed or discarded, while hetero heroes had the plot important romances. If Bioware decided that "fairness" demands they make a DA game where the "important" LIs were s/s only and the o/s ones were easily discarded...



...I'd buy popcorn, sit back and watch the BSN burn...

Modifié par Abispa, 12 juin 2012 - 01:55 .

[Iakus]

Abispa wrote...

I don't think that was the real motivator. You still can't romance certain popular party members, including Aveline and Varric, the most mentally stable characters in the game. The problem was that s/s Wardens had onlly the randy rogues, who could be easily killed or discarded, while hetero heroes had the plot important romances. If Bioware decided that "fairness" demands they make a DA game where the "important" LIs were s/s only and the o/s ones were easily discarded...



...I'd buy popcorn, sit back and watch the BSN burn...

Well, if you like the LI, they're by definition difficult to discard:P


But that was bascially my question:  Is the problem lack of options or is this a case of "their grass is greener"?

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Disagree; I want them all bisexual so my PC can date them no matter how I play him/her

Does this mean you are okay with romancing Anders after siding with Templars?
How about romancing Leliana after defiling the sacred ashes right in front of her?

Um...

You can do that. Both of those. LOLOLOLOL

The former makes sense if you play the Rivalry mance to its conclusion and the latter...well you just have to Harden Leliana and then pass the intimidation check. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

I know. I view that as a serious problem.

Anders wasn't as bad, because he was always a little soft.

Leliana was really out of place though.

[wsandista]

iakus wrote...

Here's a question:

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was enough resources for 6 LIs, with a mix of romances (o/s, bi, and s/s), would it be a terrible thing if everyone had 4 options, but not all the same options?

Keep in mind that these are all full romances, as fleshed out as anything from DAO or DA2

I wish that is how they would do it.

I wonder how much resources it takes to go from companion to LI? Maybe a wandering dev will wander in and enlighten us all?

Also the PC should be able to flirt with all LIs and get rejected by those that aren't interested because of gender and/or because of the PC's actions. Then give the PC a list of responses to choose from. Evil PCs should be able to respond violently. The worst thing about getting rejected by Traynor in ME3 is how Shepard's response did not allow any player input.

[Abispa]

iakus wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I don't think that was the real motivator. You still can't romance certain popular party members, including Aveline and Varric, the most mentally stable characters in the game. The problem was that s/s Wardens had onlly the randy rogues, who could be easily killed or discarded, while hetero heroes had the plot important romances. If Bioware decided that "fairness" demands they make a DA game where the "important" LIs were s/s only and the o/s ones were easily discarded...



...I'd buy popcorn, sit back and watch the BSN burn...

Well, if you like the LI, they're by definition difficult to discard:P


But that was bascially my question:  Is the problem lack of options or is this a case of "their grass is greener"?

All the above. The problem is getting the most bang for the buck. Text RPGs are dead, especially on consoles, and cast VA is expensive. There is no reason for me to tell players of s/s heroes to "get off my lawn" when they shelled out the same $60 I did for the game, too. If they have gay sex with my best bro in an alternate universe, or my LIs is a  happy lesbian for someone else doesn't affect me in the slightest.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Leliana was really out of place though.

Its too easy to "harden" Alistair and Leilana, but the concept isn't terrible.   Except that Leilana ends up some kind of church ninja, so it obviously didn't take.   Or took too well....

But I can imagine someone running to the church after a life of villiany, then deciding the church is just as fraudulent or whatever.  Its just not going to happen in one or two lines of dialogue.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Leliana was really out of place though.

Its too easy to "harden" Alistair and Leilana, but the concept isn't terrible.   Except that Leilana ends up some kind of church ninja, so it obviously didn't take.   Or took too well....

But I can imagine someone running to the church after a life of villiany, then deciding the church is just as fraudulent or whatever.  Its just not going to happen in one or two lines of dialogue.

I agree with you, the hardening(that sounds like a really bad porno) should occur over a long time with the PC setting an example.

However we were talking about Leliana's response to the Warden defiling the sacred ashes. She should have tried to kill the Warden, NO EXCEPTIONS, she did not do that if hardened. Hell she would still be willing to bang the Warden after that, and the Warden did something that conflicted with everything she believes in. That isn't right at all.

[Iakus]

 You know, the last couple of pages have given me an insight:

What people really want from the romances in the game is a sense of earning the romance.  A sense of natural progression and accomplishment, much like the storyline of the game itself.  Including the possibility of failure.

By making all the LIs hero-sexual, the DA developers simply shined a light on  how low the LI's standards really are anyway  

[wsandista]

iakus wrote...

 You know, the last couple of pages have given me an insight:

What people really want from the romances in the game is a sense of earning the romance.  A sense of natural progression and accomplishment, much like the storyline of the game itself.  Including the possibility of failure.

By making all the LIs hero-sexual, the DA developers simply shined a light on  how low the LI's standards really are anyway  

Quite a few of the hero-sexual proponents have stated that they want romances to be easy or LIs to have no say, or to be able to romance a LI regardless of their actions. I hate to break it to you, but you're a bit late....

[Iakus]

wsandista wrote...

Quite a few of the hero-sexual proponents have stated that they want romances to be easy or LIs to have no say, or to be able to romance a LI regardless of their actions. I hate to break it to you, but you're a bit late....

A LI being nothing but a matress has got to be an incredibly boring romance.

[wsandista]

iakus wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Quite a few of the hero-sexual proponents have stated that they want romances to be easy or LIs to have no say, or to be able to romance a LI regardless of their actions. I hate to break it to you, but you're a bit late....

A LI being nothing but a matress has got to be an incredibly boring romance.

But it lets the player do what ever they want......which is apparently more important than having well-defined and non homogenous PCs.

Modifié par wsandista, 12 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[Abispa]

Ah, wsandista and iakus, it is fun to watch you two troll and have sex at the same time. Did you maintain your character integrity? I ask because you seem pretty easy.

[FKA_Servo]

wsandista wrote...

iakus wrote...

wsandista wrote...
Quite a few of the hero-sexual proponents have stated that they want romances to be easy or LIs to have no say, or to be able to romance a LI regardless of their actions. I hate to break it to you, but you're a bit late....

A LI being nothing but a matress has got to be an incredibly boring romance.

But it lets the player do what ever they want......which is apparently more important than having well-defined and non homogenous PCs.

I don't think so. All of the companions in DA 2 are well defined and distinct - whether you like them is a separate issue. Certainly none of them are heavily defined by their sexual orientation. I'm having a very tough time believing that this is anything other than the new justification for those who dislike gay romances. 

You absolutely have a point about the actions though, and I think that could be a fantastic change or addition to future games. It would totally make sense for Fenris to not give a blood Mage the time of day, or for Anders to refuse to take up with a Templar. They have hinted that your chosen specialization will play a larger role, so hopefully this is one f then things they mean. 

I have no problems with there being barriers to certain relationships - I disagree that sexuality should be that barrier. Narrative consequences are much more interesting. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 12 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[wsandista]

TommyServo wrote...

I don't think so. All of the companions in DA 2 are well defined and distinct - whether you like them is a separate issue. Certainly none of them are heavily defined by their sexual orientation. I'm having a very tough time believing that this is anything other than the new justification for those who dislike gay romances.

Then your reading it wrong. Maybe you should have read where I've stated that their should be homosexual romances that are homosexual exclusive.

You absolutely have a point about the actions though, and I think that could be a fantastic change or addition to future games. It would totally make sense for Fenris to not give a blood Mage the time of day, or for Anders to refuse to take up with a Templar. They have hinted that your chosen specialization will play a larger role, so hopefully this is one f then things they mean.

Well thank you for acknowledging my position unlike pretty much every other person in the all-bi camp has done.

I have no problems with there being barriers to certain relationships - I disagree that sexuality should be that barrier. Narrative consequences are much more interesting. 

What if the LI in question is written as a homosexual or heterosexual? Do the LIs get no say?

Abispa wrote...

Ah, wsandista and iakus, it is fun to watch you two troll and have sex at the same time. Did you maintain your character integrity? I ask because you seem pretty easy.

Well that is pretty douchey of you. I guess diversity and unique opinions are only good if they agree with you huh?

Modifié par wsandista, 12 juin 2012 - 03:35 .

[Ryzaki]

You can get diversity and unique options with all bi LIs. That's just not good enough apparently.

[hussey 92]

Ryzaki wrote...

You can get diversity and unique options with all bi LIs. That's just not good enough apparently.

what unigue options?  how are they unique if every PC can choose them.  Am I missing something?

Modifié par hussey 92, 12 juin 2012 - 03:49 .

[wsandista]

hussey 92 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You can get diversity and unique options with all bi LIs. That's just not good enough apparently.

what unigue options?  how are they unique if every PC can choose them.  Am I missing something?

It is beyond us simple trolling mortals Hussey92. Our tiny brains simply can't handle the truth that an all-bi LI cast is more diverse than a cast of LIs with different orientations.

[FKA_Servo]

wsandista wrote...Then your reading it wrong. Maybe you should have read where I've stated that their should be homosexual romances that are homosexual exclusive. 

I've seen you make that argument - sorry, I'm posting from a tablet, so I choose my battles. That's a sensible position to take, I just disagree. But you can't deny that that's a common position among the people who do take issue with the inclusion of that content, or who are unable or unwilling to compartmentalize their playthroughs like Bobsmith. 

wsandista wrote...Well thank you for acknowledging my position unlike pretty much every other person in the all-bi camp has done.

It's an excellent idea - it's exactly the kind of thing that I think would make the game better.

wsandista wrote...
What if the LI in question is written as a homosexual or heterosexual? Do the LIs get no say?

If they are written that way, then of course they do. I think having a variety of gay/straight/bi options is great, as long as the options are provided. But I think that having them open to both straight and gay romance is better. If Merrill  is going to turn me down, I want it to be because my character goes against everything she believes in, not because I'm a man or a woman. I don't want it to matter. 

[Abispa]

wsandista wrote...

Well that is pretty douchey of you. I guess diversity and unique opinions are only good if they agree with you huh?

Wow. You CAN read. I was just checking to see if your recent "conversation" with your buddy was a case of you not be able to comprehend the discussion on the last few pages, or your desire to CONTINUE to outright LIE about the consequences of "all-bi" in DA2, and the statements of the "all-bi" supporters (who don't all agree with other, in case you weren't capable of figuring that out). You have proven that any discussion with you is a waste of time. Like so many critics of the hero-sexuality, you strive to prove where logic fails, endurence may prevail. You'll keep repeating the same lies and snark.

DA2 was FAR from perfect, and LIs weren't the reason. In fact, they were one of the few real high lights of the game. People have repeated shown you how your charges are false, intentionally or by error, but you have yet to show me how a game with a large cast (six, as your friend keep proposing, is a lot) of exclusive LIs has created these meaningful romances or truly independant characters who aren't slaves to the hero's whims.

Unless all you really care about is sex. Oops, realistic romances. Ones where a bulk of the game's resources are spent making the player take careful planning and role-playing effort for no other purpose than to get nookie. In that case, let Bioware focus on a game that is primarily about fighting dragons, mages, Templars and Darkspawn, and go buy yourself a dating sim.

Modifié par Abispa, 12 juin 2012 - 04:07 .

[wsandista]

TommyServo wrote...

wsandista wrote...Then your reading it wrong. Maybe you should have read where I've stated that their should be homosexual romances that are homosexual exclusive. 

I've seen you make that argument - sorry, I'm posting from a tablet, so I choose my battles. That's a sensible position to take, I just disagree. But you can't deny that that's a common position among the people who do take issue with the inclusion of that content, or who are unable or unwilling to compartmentalize their playthroughs like Bobsmith. 

wsandista wrote...Well thank you for acknowledging my position unlike pretty much every other person in the all-bi camp has done.

It's an excellent idea - it's exactly the kind of thing that I think would make the game better.

wsandista wrote...
What if the LI in question is written as a homosexual or heterosexual? Do the LIs get no say?

If they are written that way, then of course they do. I think having a variety of gay/straight/bi options is great, as long as the options are provided. But I think that having them open to both straight and gay romance is better. If Merrill  is going to turn me down, I want it to be because my character goes against everything she believes in, not because I'm a man or a woman. I don't want it to matter. 

Thank you for actually being respectful about this. I disagree with you but I understand your concerns.
It is nice to have a conversation about this without having someone accuse you of being a liar, a bigot, or a moron.