930 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

Abispa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Well that is pretty douchey of you. I guess diversity and unique opinions are only good if they agree with you huh?

Wow. You CAN read. I was just checking to see if your recent "conversation" with your buddy was a case of you not be able to comprehend the discussion on the last few pages, or your desire to CONTINUE to outright LIE about the consequences of "all-bi" in DA2, and the statements of the "all-bi" supporters (who don't all agree with other, in case you weren't capable of figuring that out). You have proven that any discussion with you is a waste of time. Like so many critics of the hero-sexuality, you strive to prove where logic fails, endurence may prevail. You'll keep repeating the same lies and snark.

DA2 was FAR from perfect, and LIs weren't the reason. In fact, they were one of the few real high lights of the game. People have repeated shown you how your charges are false, intentionally or by error, but you have yet to show me how a game with a large cast (six, as your friend keep proposing, is a lot) of exclusive LIs has created these meaningful romances or truly independant characters who aren't slaves to the hero's whims.

Unless all you really care about is sex. Oops, realistic romances. Ones where a bulk of the game's resources are spent making the player take careful planning and role-playing effort for no other purpose than to get nookie. In that case, let Bioware focus on a game that is primarily about fighting dragons, mages, Templars and Darkspawn, and go buy yourself a dating sim.

Prove it. Where have my charges been false?

[FKA_Servo]

wsandista wrote...

It is beyond us simple trolling mortals Hussey92. Our tiny brains simply can't handle the truth that an all-bi LI cast is more diverse than a cast of LIs with different orientations.

Or... sexuality isn't everyone's defining trait? It is an aspect, certainly, to varying degrees, but in this case, it's irrelevant to the diversity.

Fenris is who he is because of the events that shaped him. Anders is who he is because of the events that shaped him. In neither instance is gay/straight/bi a defining characteristic. Do you think a straight Fenris would be appreciably different than heteroflexible Fenris? He was still a slave. He still lost his memory. He still hates blood mages. Same deal with everyone else.

Sexuality doesn't need to be a defining character trait. 

[wsandista]

TommyServo wrote...

wsandista wrote...

It is beyond us simple trolling mortals Hussey92. Our tiny brains simply can't handle the truth that an all-bi LI cast is more diverse than a cast of LIs with different orientations.

Or... sexuality isn't everyone's defining trait? It is an aspect, certainly, to varying degrees, but in this case, it's irrelevant to the diversity.

Never said it was. And if the entire group of LIs are all bi, then they have a homogenous sexual preference. That isn't diversity, that is the opposite.

Fenris is who he is because of the events that shaped him. Anders is who he is because of the events that shaped him. In neither instance is gay/straight/bi a defining characteristic. Do you think a straight Fenris would be appreciably different than heteroflexible Fenris? He was still a slave. He still lost his memory. He still hates blood mages. Same deal with everyone else.

Sexuality doesn't need to be a defining character trait. 

It is though. Cortez wouldn't have been the same if he was attracted to women. He would not have a different personality, but he would respond to advances from PCs of the opposite sex differently. Do you disagree that if Cortez orientation were heterosexual his actions would not change at all?

[hussey 92]

TommyServo wrote...

wsandista wrote...

It is beyond us simple trolling mortals Hussey92. Our tiny brains simply can't handle the truth that an all-bi LI cast is more diverse than a cast of LIs with different orientations.

Or... sexuality isn't everyone's defining trait? It is an aspect, certainly, to varying degrees, but in this case, it's irrelevant to the diversity.

Fenris is who he is because of the events that shaped him. Anders is who he is because of the events that shaped him. In neither instance is gay/straight/bi a defining characteristic. Do you think a straight Fenris would be appreciably different than heteroflexible Fenris? He was still a slave. He still lost his memory. He still hates blood mages. Same deal with everyone else.

Sexuality doesn't need to be a defining character trait. 

sexuality seemed to be a big trait with Isabella.  

And I still don't see why every character should be bi

Modifié par hussey 92, 12 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You can get diversity and unique options with all bi LIs. That's just not good enough apparently.

what unigue options?  how are they unique if every PC can choose them.  Am I missing something?

Yes.

Abispa wrote...
Anders wants desperately for his male lover to be the leader of his movement and is ashamed of his sneaking around. He wants the female lover to support him, but says that he is protecting her by doing things behind her back. Merrill wants male Hawke to be the one who helps lead her people to greatness. She sees her female lover as a role model who she desperately wants to emulate. Isabela loves the sex and adventure with either gender, but she is territorial with her female lover, and laughs at her male lover if he wants to fool around with others. Fenris is pretty much the same with either gender. Each character is different, and most react differently based on the gender of their lover. That may not be "realistic," but is better than past most past Bioware romances.

This.

Fenris talks about sex differently with male Hawke then Female Hawke. So yes each LI has something different for genders. (as well as being a mage or not with Anders and Fenris).


And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2012 - 04:33 .

[FKA_Servo]

hussey 92 wrote...

sexuality seemed to be a big trait with Isabella.

And I still don't see why every character should be bi

I should have been more clear - I was using sexuality and sexual orientation interchangeably. 

I agree Isabela's sexuality is a part of her character. I don't think anyone can say that her orientation has any bearing on this. 

Every character being available to both genders is my preference, as well as that of many others. It's one way of having same-sex romance in the game. Defined characters are another. Either way has been proven to work. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 12 juin 2012 - 04:33 .

[jlb524]

hussey 92 wrote...
what unigue options?  how are they unique if every PC can choose them.  Am I missing something?

Do you know what 'unique' means?

That's like saying the three classes aren't unique b/c any player/PC can choose them.

[FKA_Servo]

Ryzaki wrote...And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse. 

This. Here, it's just a question of the implementation. Cortez was exclusively gay. If he (and any of the ther romance options, really) were available to both male and female Shepard, nothing that defines him as a character is changed. 

[Iakus]

Abispa wrote...

Ah, wsandista and iakus, it is fun to watch you two troll and have sex at the same time. Did you maintain your character integrity? I ask because you seem pretty easy.

Huh? 

[hussey 92]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
what unigue options?  how are they unique if every PC can choose them.  Am I missing something?

Do you know what 'unique' means?

That's like saying the three classes aren't unique b/c any player/PC can choose them.

the option to hit on Alistair is unigue to female wardens.  Hitting on Anders can be done by any PC.  

note:  but I guess what the earlier poster was trying to say was that the dialouge is slightly different for male/female Hawkes.

[jlb524]

hussey 92 wrote...
the option to hit on Alistair is unigue to female wardens.  Hitting on Anders can be done by any PC.  

I think the better word is 'exclusive'.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
the option to hit on Alistair is unigue to female wardens.  Hitting on Anders can be done by any PC.  

I think the better word is 'exclusive'.

Yup.

The option to hit on Leliana and Zevran isn't unique to anyone. However there are unique flirts with them if you're a s/s LI. (Or exclusive flirts which ever term you prefer).

Just because a LI is open to both genders doesn't mean all uniqueness goes away. I don't see why people don't understand this.

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
the option to hit on Alistair is unigue to female wardens.  Hitting on Anders can be done by any PC.  

I think the better word is 'exclusive'.

Both are true.

[hussey 92]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
the option to hit on Alistair is unigue to female wardens.  Hitting on Anders can be done by any PC.  

I think the better word is 'exclusive'.

probable, I'm still a little confused by that last bunch of post's. 

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

[jlb524]

hussey 92 wrote...
probable, I'm still a little confused by that last bunch of post's. 

The LIs in DA2 were unique from each other in that they had different personal stories, personalities, back grounds, appearances, etc.  Same can be said for the DA:O LIs.

There was unique dialog for the DA2 LIs as well depending on gender, class (mostly mage), whether you were on the friendship/rivalry path, etc.    Same with DA:O I guess.

The LIs in DA2 weren't exclusive to any gender PC (or class, morality, etc.).

Two of the LIs in DA:O were exclusive to one gender that enabled a heterosexual romance.

Using 'unique' in the last sentences is kinda confusing...which is why I prefer 'exclusive'.

'Unique' makes me think you are trying to disagree with the first two sentences...which is ridiculous.

Modifié par jlb524, 12 juin 2012 - 04:54 .

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

That's not what his character is about. And no I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that nothing about his personality would change. Absolutely nothing. His characterization? Would not change. Having a wife yeah he'd be open to FemShep...in pretty much the same way he's open to male Shep now. Only difference would be genders.

Actually I do wish he was bi. Maybe then his lovescene wouldn't have cringeworthy lighting issues.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2012 - 05:01 .

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

That's not what his character is about. And no I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that nothing about his personality would change. Absolutely nothing. His characterization? Would not change. Having a wife yeah he'd be open to FemShep...in pretty much the same way he's open to male Shep now. Only difference would be genders.

Actually I do wish he was bi. Maybe then his lovescene wouldn't have cringeworthy lighting issues.

I'm not arguing any of that either.

What I'm arguing that his actions could change. He would be willing to have sex with a female Shepard, while as it stands now he would not do that. that is a change. not a world-breaking one(unless you're a host on Fox News) but a change in behavior nonetheless.

[TJX2045]

wsandista wrote...

So Cortez saying "I'm not into girls" or Traynor saying "I'm not into men" establishes their personality?  That's just their attitude towards certain people.

For example, if a straight guy tells a gay guy "I'm not into men," does that suddenly change who he was before he was hit on?  That's the vibe I'm getting from this.

Then you are not correctly interpreting my statements.

Please enlighten me as to how I'm incorrect.

It seemed pretty obvious that your idea is that if he was straight his personality wouldn't be the same because he would be willing to be in a relationship with FemShep.

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse. 

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

 

This is illogical to me because that is an ATTITUDE towards someone.  Cortez was gay, he never hit on Shepard until he was hit on himself.  If Cortez was straight, he wouldn't hit on FemShep until she hit on him herself.

Morrigan would be the same character if she was bi.  Kaidan is still the same character, and actually he was originally written to be bi so everyone claiming he was originally supposed to be straight should look back at the content in ME1.  Given the year ME1 was released and considering the controversy that the straight romances got alone, the s/s male one would've been like a field day with Fox.

What am I not getting?  Or is everyone just trolling because the last few pages I've seen are "Everyone can't be all-bi or herosexual because 'diversity' even if it restricts the player from making the game their own story" in certain aspects like Bioware intended.

If we're on the subject of diversity, why don't we have more LIs of different ethnicities?  Realistically there isn't going to be one ethnicity of anyone in any given country, so let's complain about that in a fantasy world.

I know we're never going to see eye to eye and you'll always have your opinion, but what does "I'm not interested" affect character wise?  Other than the fact that the character is not interested in you sexually or is one sexuality or another?  They're still the same personality wise.

Modifié par TJX2045, 12 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[TEWR]

So I've been doing some thinking lately -- okay, really over the course of the last 20 minutes -- and I have to reiterate how I changed my stance from "I'd prefer it not be done" to "Meh....". I wasn't fervently against it like some people are, but I was definitely "Ehhh.... I dunno...."

But my stance has changed for one more reason then I stated on the first page or so, because that's the only one I can really recall.

I've been re-examining the nature of the LIs and I've come to the realization -- a personal one, which may or may not apply to other people -- that Bioware didn't give us 4 bisexual LIs. They made the 4 bisexual characters LIs.

Which to some that may seem like I'm saying the same thing, but I don't think I am.

I have to wonder just how much opinions would've changed if Fenris was just a bisexual character and Varric was a straight LI in his place. I'm just curious, since if that were the case there'd still be 4 bisexual characters.

Now, I still choose to see what happened in DAII's story as being circumstance bringing four people open with their sexuality together. One was always written as bisexual, the other gave off that vibe to some people, while the other two's backstories can explain why they're open to either gender. Well, really one backstory can explain it. The other is due to a lack of one ever having been given.

I had other new reasons why it doesn't bother me anymore, but I can't remember them.

Now, what I said on the first page or so still applies to my line of thought on the matter. Especially if old companions return and were written as explicitly straight (Alistair and Morrigan being prime examples). They should stay that way if they return as LIs -- though, I kinda think that'd be a bad idea for them to return as LIs if they were already LIs.

But otherwise, I don't really care. So long as the bisexual LIs are made bisexual as part of their character rather then for the opportunity it provides to players, then I don't see any reason to complain further.

Which is really what I feel it comes down to for some people. I think that while some may say they don't want it at all for all the LIs, what they really don't want is it being done for the sake of players having more options, to the point that it might be detrimental to the characters themselves.

Some anyway. I may be wrong on that though. And others are just... well....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juin 2012 - 07:24 .

[TJX2045]

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

That's not what his character is about. And no I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that nothing about his personality would change. Absolutely nothing. His characterization? Would not change. Having a wife yeah he'd be open to FemShep...in pretty much the same way he's open to male Shep now. Only difference would be genders.

Actually I do wish he was bi. Maybe then his lovescene wouldn't have cringeworthy lighting issues.

I'm not arguing any of that either.

What I'm arguing that his actions could change. He would be willing to have sex with a female Shepard, while as it stands now he would not do that. that is a change. not a world-breaking one(unless you're a host on Fox News) but a change in behavior nonetheless.

Ok and see THIS is what I have a problem with.  That is NOT a personality change.  That is just his sexuality.  It's a different attitude he has towards her because the writers wrote him as gay.

Other than that his character is the same.

A Bisexual person does not suddenly change who they are personality wise when they are with a man instead of a woman or vice versa.

And actions "could" change is not actions "would" change.

[wsandista]

TJX2045 wrote...

Please enlighten me as to how I'm incorrect.

Cortez has the same personality and quirks, he just is attracted to different genders. That is a change from how he is in the vanilla game no?

This is illogical to me because that is an ATTITUDE towards someone.  Cortez was gay, he never hit on Shepard until he was hit on himself.  If Cortez was straight, he wouldn't hit on FemShep until she hit on him herself.

Morrigan would be the same character if she was bi.  Kaidan is still the same character, and actually he was originally written to be bi so everyone claiming he was originally supposed to be straight should look back at the content in ME1.  Given the year ME1 was released and considering the controversy that the straight romances got alone, the s/s male one would've been like a field day with Fox.

What am I not getting?  Or is everyone just trolling because the last few pages I've seen are "Everyone can't be all-bi or herosexual because 'diversity' even if it restricts the player from making the game their own story" in certain aspects like Bioware intended.

Cortez would respond to females advances with interest if he was bi. he doesn't do that in the game. His personality would be no different but his actions would be. If they were interested, they simply wouldn't be the same character as they are now, because they would perform different actions.

Modifié par wsandista, 12 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[wsandista]

TJX2045 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And no I don't feel Cortez would've changed at all if he was bi. That's not what his character was about, his was a story of grief loss and recovery. That doesn't matter if he had a wife, husband, or random alien for a spouse.

So you're arguing that Cortez already is willing to be in a relationship with a female Shepard?

That's not what his character is about. And no I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that nothing about his personality would change. Absolutely nothing. His characterization? Would not change. Having a wife yeah he'd be open to FemShep...in pretty much the same way he's open to male Shep now. Only difference would be genders.

Actually I do wish he was bi. Maybe then his lovescene wouldn't have cringeworthy lighting issues.

I'm not arguing any of that either.

What I'm arguing that his actions could change. He would be willing to have sex with a female Shepard, while as it stands now he would not do that. that is a change. not a world-breaking one(unless you're a host on Fox News) but a change in behavior nonetheless.

Ok and see THIS is what I have a problem with.  That is NOT a personality change.  That is just his sexuality.  It's a different attitude he has towards her because the writers wrote him as gay.

Other than that his character is the same.

A Bisexual person does not suddenly change who they are personality wise when they are with a man instead of a woman or vice versa.

And actions "could" change is not actions "would" change.

I know, I've been mixing those two words up lately.

You say it yourself in the bolded text. It wouldn't be an extreme change, but it would still be a change. I have never argued that a personality change occurs, I do not see where epople get this from.

[TJX2045]

wsandista wrote...

This is illogical to me because that is an ATTITUDE towards someone.  Cortez was gay, he never hit on Shepard until he was hit on himself.  If Cortez was straight, he wouldn't hit on FemShep until she hit on him herself.

Morrigan would be the same character if she was bi.  Kaidan is still the same character, and actually he was originally written to be bi so everyone claiming he was originally supposed to be straight should look back at the content in ME1.  Given the year ME1 was released and considering the controversy that the straight romances got alone, the s/s male one would've been like a field day with Fox.

What am I not getting?  Or is everyone just trolling because the last few pages I've seen are "Everyone can't be all-bi or herosexual because 'diversity' even if it restricts the player from making the game their own story" in certain aspects like Bioware intended.

Cortez would respond to females advances with interest if he was bi. he doesn't do that in the game. His personality would be no different but his actions would be. If they were interested, they simply wouldn't be the same character as they are now, because they would perform different actions.

<_<

Weren't we talking about personality and characterization?  How do these miniscule actions determined by his sexuality affect his characterization?

The only different actions he would have is that he would either a) also consider getting into FemShep's pants or only consider getting into FemShep's pants.

That really can't be THAT immersion/character breaking for people, can it?  I mean really...that isn't much to stand on.

Modifié par TJX2045, 12 juin 2012 - 06:47 .