930 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

syllogi wrote...
I think that if DA2 love interests don't talk as much about past lovers, it's more that the writers didn't want more complaints about "Carth Syndrome" and the like, not that they were hiding anything about the potential sexuality of the LIs.

This is correct. Despite how some people seem to think characters talking about their former loves is somehow defining, I don't really see it as necessary in every case. Even if we moved to having romances which are closed off to certain genders, that doesn't mean we would suddenly start having them all discuss former loves. Like with DA2, it would likely be some characters doing so when it's important to their character (like Isabela) and others not doing it at all because it's irrelevant (like Fenris or Merrill).

Which doesn't mean it's not nice to have that as an option-- but just because it's an option doesn't mean it's one that needs to be used. Like syllogi points out, there's really only so much "talking about ex-lovers" that you can throw around before it induces more eye-rolling than it does character-defining. And since there's so many other things that can define a character, that's not worrisome. To me, anyhow. If others are worried about it, I think they're probably over-thinking it... and trying to find causality in why they liked Origins romances more where it likely doesn't belong.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the pinnacle of character development is to have everyone talk about who they've had sex with in the past so it's possible for a player to easily define them. Most of the Origins characters did it, and people liked them, so that must be specifically why, right? Weirder things have happened.

Modifié par David Gaider, 12 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[jlb524]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As someone who quit TOR because of it's lack of SGRA all I can say is, don't you even dare think about doing this.

Do you think it would have made as big of a difference had TOR not had any romances at all?

I never picked up TOR because there were no same-sex romances.

If there had been no romances at all, I would have probably gotten it.

Were you insulted by it, or was it just that seeing the opposite sex romances would have just driven the point home that same sex romances didn't exist, making it harder to look past that.

Yeah...I still play TOR (in spite of avoiding romance content I don't like and not having content I do like), but I can see how having 13243546364 heterosexual romance options/flirts thrown in your face vs. having absolutely 0 homosexual flirt options (even if the person turns you down b/c they are straight) could be off-putting.   I even play female toons in that game and I heard it's even worse with the male ones.

It's just not the lack of romance options but the complete inability to roleplay a non-heterosexual characer.

It is off-putting to me actually, but I like the game enough (and my Imperial Agent character) to play it.

syllogi wrote...
I think that if DA2 love interests don't talk as much about past lovers, it's more that the writers didn't want more complaints about "Carth Syndrome" and the like, not that they were hiding anything about the potential sexuality of the LIs. 

Most BW romanceable females never ever talked about past loves though.  

Bastila?

Silk Fox?

Dawn Star?

Ashley?

Morrigan?


Nope. 

Modifié par jlb524, 12 juin 2012 - 02:50 .

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

This is correct. Despite how some people seem to think characters talking about their former loves is somehow defining, I don't really see it as necessary in every case. Even if we moved to having romances which are closed off to certain genders, that doesn't mean we would suddenly start having them all discuss former loves. Like with DA2, it would likely be some characters doing so when it's important to their character (like Isabela) and others not doing it at all because it's irrelevant (like Fenris or Merrill).

Which doesn't mean it's not nice to have that as an option-- but just because it's an option doesn't mean it's one that needs to be used. Like syllogi points out, there's really only so much "talking about ex-lovers" that you can throw around before it induces more eye-rolling than it does character-defining. And since there's so many other things that can define a character, that's not worrisome. To me, anyhow. If others are worried about it, I think they're probably over-thinking it... and trying to find causality in why they liked Origins romances more where it likely doesn't belong.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the pinnacle of character development is to have everyone talk about who they've had sex with in the past so it's possible for a player to easily define them. Most of the Origins characters did it, and people liked them, so that must be specifically why, right? Weirder things have happened.

Pinnacle of character development?  Not unless it gets zapped with green space magic

But part of character development is having people talk about their past.  And sometimes past relationships and loves are part of that.   Wesley was a big part of Aveline's past, after all.  Karl was part of Ander's past (in some capacity or other).  And so on.

I'm concerned that in creating an aspect of a character that's so mutable, you're creating a blind spot that will make otherwise lifelike characters...not so lifelike.  And this worries me, since Dragon Age does have some of the best characterization I've seen in rpgs.  I fear for hero-sexual characters damaging that.

Edit:  Now that I think about it, and strange as it may sound given the thread we are in, I think I would prefer an "all bi" LI scenerio rather than "hero sexual".  It may be a bizarre coincidence, but less so than subjective sexuality/

Modifié par iakus, 12 juin 2012 - 03:07 .

[jlb524]

iakus wrote...
I'm concerned that in creating an aspect of a character that's so mutable, you're creating a blind spot that will make otherwise lifelike characters...not so lifelike.  And this worries me, since Dragon Age does have some of the best characterization I've seen in rpgs.  I fear for hero-sexual characters damaging that.

Edit:  Now that I think about it, and strange as it may sound given the thread we are in, I think I would prefer an "all bi" LI scenerio rather than "hero sexual".  It may be a bizarre coincidence, but less so than subjective sexuality/

They don't all have to be hero-sexual though.

They weren't in DA2.

I think that, when a character's sexual past is completely unimportant to their depiction in game and thus non-existent, it's pointless to limit said character to one gender just because...because!

I'm not sure what is gained.

[FlyinElk212]

I don't know why people consider LI's in Dragon Age 2 strictly "bisexual". I don't think they are.

Each created Hawke exists in a different Dragon Age universe. LI's do not explicitly state that they are attracted to both men and women, other than Isabela. Therefore, can't Fenris be considered flat-out homosexual in a Male-Hawke universe that romances him, and be considered straight in a male-hawke universe that chooses not to (since there's insinuations that Isabela sleeps with him, but that's the only reference to Fenris' sexuality should you choose to not romance him)?

The ability to make love interests romanceable by either gender was ingenius on Bioware's part. By making these character not ever allude to past relationships (other than Izzy and Anders on a male hawke side), it makes their preference "ambiguous", not "bisexual". It allows the sexuality of said characters to be interpretted differently per each universe/runthrough.

EDIT:

jlb524 wrote...

I think that, when a character's sexual past is completely unimportant to their depiction in game and thus non-existent, it's pointless to limit  said character to one gender just because...because!

I'm not sure what is gained.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 12 juin 2012 - 04:30 .

[hussey 92]

jlb524 wrote...

They don't all have to be hero-sexual though.

They weren't in DA2.

pretty sure they were

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the pinnacle of character development is to have everyone talk about who they've had sex with in the past so it's possible for a player to easily define them. Most of the Origins characters did it, and people liked them, so that must be specifically why, right? Weirder things have happened.

And then you could make these conversations happen on their "first date" with the PC, just to make it extra romantic ...

Hero-centric romances don't bother me, so much of gameplay in CRPGs revolves around the PC, particularly anything to do with time, and for me at least this is not the straw that breaks the camels back.

As others have said if having a LIs sexuality vary based on the gender of the PC means that we get more choices for LIs then I'm all for it.

[hussey 92]

jlb524 wrote...

Most BW romanceable females never ever talked about past loves though.  

Bastila?

Silk Fox?

Dawn Star?

Ashley?

Morrigan?


Nope. 

Ashely only talked about her family but Morrigan did mention men lusting after her in the past.

[jlb524]

hussey 92 wrote...
Ashely only talked about her family but Morrigan did mention men lusting after her in the past.

Not sure how any of that equals 'having a past love/relationship".

hussey 92 wrote...
pretty sure they were

Isabela was not.

Her sexuality was made explicit.

Anders could possibly count here as well.

Fenris/Merrill are the vague ones.

Modifié par jlb524, 12 juin 2012 - 04:54 .

[The Elder King]

hussey 92 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

They don't all have to be hero-sexual though.

They weren't in DA2.

pretty sure they were

With the exception of Isabela, yes.
Though I don't care much about that. I'd still prefer if LI are shown as bisexual, but I didn't have problem with the romance content in DA2, and this is the last of my worries for DA3.

[hussey 92]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
pretty sure they were

Isabela was not.

Her sexuality was made explicit.

Anders could possibly count here as well.

Fenris/Merrill are the vague ones.

Isabela was esablished as bi in Origins.  But I remember the others being discribed by Gaider as "Hawke-sexual"

[Chris Priestly]

Am I the only one who doesn't think a character is bi-sexual if they do not "hit on" both genders during one playthrough?

If I am playing a man and I romance a male NPC in this playthrough, the NPC character is gay. If I play a woman and romance the same NPC character, in that playthrough he is straight. Admittedly, if during my playthrough that character hits on both male & female characters, then the change is they are bi (or very forgiving).

[Nomen Mendax]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't think a character is bi-sexual if they do not "hit on" both genders during one playthrough?

If I am playing a man and I romance a male NPC in this playthrough, the NPC character is gay. If I play a woman and romance the same NPC character, in that playthrough he is straight. Admittedly, if during my playthrough that character hits on both male & female characters, then the change is they are bi (or very forgiving).

No you are not the only one who thinks like this.  I agree that an NPC can be straight in one playthrough and gay in another.  I think that's why this discussion has started to use the phrase herosexual.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 12 juin 2012 - 05:07 .

[The Elder King]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't think a character is bi-sexual if they do not "hit on" both genders during one playthrough?

If I am playing a man and I romance a male NPC in this playthrough, the NPC character is gay. If I play a woman and romance the same NPC character, in that playthrough he is straight. Admittedly, if during my playthrough that character hits on both male & female characters, then the change is they are bi (or very forgiving).

I agree, they're not bisexual. But if I made two playthroughs where I romanced the same male NPC with a male PC and a female PC, I'd define the character as herosexual. And in DA2's case it wasn't even metagaming, since Bioware announced that all the LI were available to every PC.
For me, a male NPC is hetero if I could romance him only with a female PC, he's gay if I could romance him with only a male PC, and he's bisexual if he could be romanced with both male and female PC.
I'd have no problem if every LI will be shown as bisexual (instead I'd prefer it). But as I said, I don't care much about the topic. I liked the fact that I could romance everyone in DA2 (though my preferred option would be a 2/2/2 ratio for hetero, gay and bisexual LI), and I liked the romance content of DA2.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 juin 2012 - 05:16 .

[thats1evildude]

Nyoka wrote...

Very true Chris. Isabela is clearly bisexual. Merrill is clearly lesbian.

For me, anyway.

What? That's madness. Merrill clearly loves the manHawke.

[Cutlass Jack]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't think a character is bi-sexual if they do not "hit on" both genders during one playthrough?

If I am playing a man and I romance a male NPC in this playthrough, the NPC character is gay. If I play a woman and romance the same NPC character, in that playthrough he is straight. Admittedly, if during my playthrough that character hits on both male & female characters, then the change is they are bi (or very forgiving).

Nope you're not the only one. Judging it by anything other than what happens in your given playthrough is metagaming. What way a given character swings on someone else's playthrough doesn't affect your game at all.

And its great that as a player I can go for the romances that make the most sense for the character. Any limitations should be personality/compatability based rather than arbitrary orientation labels. If you don't think a certain companion should be gay, then don't hit on them. Problem solved.

[jlb524]

I still want every character's favorite ice cream flavor established consistently in all possible playthroughs.

[Ryzaki]

thats1evildude wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Very true Chris. Isabela is clearly bisexual. Merrill is clearly lesbian.

For me, anyway.

What? That's madness. Merrill clearly loves the manHawke.

Yup in my games Merrill's straight. She only has eyes for rival dude Hawke.

And Fenris is gay.

[The Uncanny]

jlb524 wrote...

I still want every character's favorite ice cream flavor established consistently in all possible playthroughs.

But... but... what happens when they bring out a new flavour of ice cream? 

[Ryzaki]

Oh no. *takes out sword* You will take rival Merrillmance off my cold dead body.

I much prefer rivaling Merrill than friending her. I do wish there were 15 minute long convos though =(

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Ryzaki wrote...

And Fenris is gay.

So Fenris winking at the pretty girl in the story is just him commenting on her awesome haircut, probably?

[thats1evildude]

If it came down to saving Marethari or Merrill's life by rivalling her, I would do it. But it doesn't, so I can't.

And I don't know what people mean by saying Fenris is gay. In my playthroughs, he's this super-manly dude who has women swooning as he passes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 juin 2012 - 05:51 .