930 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

This is different from using mods that change the game world, because mods are indiscriminate to the PC.

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 01:42 .

[Blacklash93]

Ryzaki wrote...

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

God that mod made me facepalm. Isabela just looks wrong like that. It's right up there with the chest-hairless Varric mod.

[hussey 92]

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

This is different from using mods that change the game world, because mods are indiscriminate to the PC.

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

lightening isabelas skin doesn't change how people react to her or how she reacts to anyone else.  And Isabelas not Black, shes Rivaini

[jlb524]

hussey 92 wrote...
lightening isabelas skin doesn't change how people react to her or how she reacts to anyone else.  And Isabelas not Black, shes Rivaini

It could change how the PC reacts to her.

I'm assuming peeps that change her appearance to make her more attractive will not romance her with their PC otherwise.

[Ryzaki]

hussey 92 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

This is different from using mods that change the game world, because mods are indiscriminate to the PC.

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

lightening isabelas skin doesn't change how people react to her or how she reacts to anyone else.  And Isabelas not Black, shes Rivaini

You're changing a core part of her character. If you guys can see sexuality as someone's core I can see someone's skin color as their core.

...no duh. She is however dark skinned. She's not fair skinned. She's a dark skinned sailor and Riviani's are known for being dark. Lightening her skin is changing her identity.

Does not some poet call her his "dusky goddess" so yes actually it would change a reaction. Maybe he wouldn't like her if she was fair, maybe he'd call her something else. Who knows. But it would change how people react to her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...
lightening isabelas skin doesn't change how people react to her or how she reacts to anyone else.  And Isabelas not Black, shes Rivaini

It could change how the PC reacts to her.

I'm assuming peeps that change her appearance to make her more attractive will not romance her with their PC otherwise.

also this

[hussey 92]

Ryzaki wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...

This is different from using mods that change the game world, because mods are indiscriminate to the PC.

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

lightening isabelas skin doesn't change how people react to her or how she reacts to anyone else.  And Isabelas not Black, shes Rivaini

You're changing a core part of her character. If you guys can see sexuality as someone's core I can see someone's skin color as their core.

...no duh. She is however dark skinned. She's not fair skinned. She's a dark skinned sailor and Riviani's are known for being dark. Lightening her skin is changing her identity.

Does not some poet call her his "dusky goddess" so yes actually it would change a reaction. Maybe he wouldn't like her if she was fair, maybe he'd call her something else. Who knows.

when someones appearance is changed with a mod, there are no in-game changes, everyone treats that character the same.  Even if you change there skin or make them look like a different character, none of the NPC's notice.

 note: I myself don't actually use mods, I'm an xbox player  

[Ryzaki]

hussey 92 wrote...
when someones appearance is changed with a mod, there are no in-game changes, everyone treats that character the same.  Even if you change there skin or make them look like a different character, none of the NPC's notice.

 note: I myself don't actually use mods, I'm an xbox player  

I'm talking about if this choice was acknowledged in game otherwise I can use your logic to say clearly Alistair doesn't mind being in a relationship with my male Warden. He'll marry him just as easily.

It's still changing a character to suit the players desires. Something you guys claim to be against. It just makes me curious when insisting that characters choose their own preferences you change their skin color. As if that's not just as much of them as their sexuality.

[hussey 92]

^i never changed anybody's skin color

Modifié par hussey 92, 13 juin 2012 - 03:10 .

[Ryzaki]

hussey 92 wrote...

^i never changed anybody's skin color

Then unless you support it while going on about "preserving character intergrity." I don't mean you. And yes people do react to Isabela's skin. She's that poet's "dusky goddess" and he invites her to feast on his "tender white flesh". 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 03:21 .

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

wsandista wrote...


Those are the results of PC actions, Cortez's sexuality isn't determined by the PC's actions, unless I missed the part where femshep flashes him and he suddenly gets interested in women.

No it's not determined by PC actions. Neither are Fenris, Anders, Isabela's or Merrill's! Only difference is there's is open to interpretation. Not that it changes. Your interpreation changes. That's all. There's a big difference there.

And I doubt Cortez would be interested in a male Shep that flashed him either. That's just crass and rude.

Unless you want to say there's a part when Fenris suddenly goes from gay to straight because the PC told him. (Or same for any other LI). If so please point that out.

?
Never said they were determined by PC actions, I've stated that herosexual LI's orientation are determined by a PC's gender. The gender is a player choice, not a PC choice. Did you misunderstand the pint I was making?
The point was that LI orientation had nothing to do with PC actions while hardening, softening, and making friends did have everything to do with PC actions.

Same goes for every het only LI ever with a s/s PC.

And for every party member and most main NPCs. PC should have plenty of choice, just not control how the world reacts to their choice.

Ryzaki wrote...

You use a mod to change Isabela white. You change a part of her character to please you the player and by extension the PC (since Isabela is white to your Hawke then when she's black in an unmodified game). Your PC doesn't exist in a vaccum. Yes I'd say skin color is just as if not more important to someone's character than sexuality. You don't think that's a similar thing to what you're doing by claiming we want to modify and change an LI to suit our interests by making them available to both genders? 

But like I said, the mod effects the game world indiscriminately of the PC. Herosexual does not do that, herosexual makes the LIs orientation dependent on the PC's gender. All bi cast does not do that and accomplishes the same goal. So all-bi LI cast does not change the world at all. Herosexual makes the PC warp reality, just like if a certain event happened in the game depending on the PCs class that had no PC input, like a certain relative dying if a mage or another dying if the PC isn't a mage.

[Indoctrination]

I don't have very many nice things to say about Mass Effect 3, but I one of the nice things I do have to say about it was the way gay/lesbian romances were handled in that game. The Traynor/Cortez romances were incredibly tasteful and well done.

The problem I have with "everyone is bisexual, so dig in and have your fill" is that it makes the characters feel like puppets. When the character seems to be effortlessly bending to your will it makes them feel less real. Part of normal interaction with other people is that other people are different from you and you can't always get what you want from them.

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

No, it's to accomodate the player.

The PC doesn't have to 'turn them gay' or whatever.

With herosexual the PC alters reality simply by existing. If the LI was bi, this would not be a problem.

Why?

And should the PC be included in that? (the PC is part of the game world).

The PC should be part of the world yes, but their gender, class, race, or background should not change the world. The gameworld should be uniform and react to PC chooices, not morph depending on PC's character.

Mods change things to accomodate player taste too.

Mods change the game independent of what the PC is. If I change Anders to give him a beard, he has a beard in all realities.

In DA2 the PC's existence warps reality by having a particular sibling dies dependent on their class, not actions, and by having certain characters orientation change depending on gender.

Player Taste =/= Reactions to PC choices.

jlb524 wrote...

It could change how the PC reacts to her.

That is the point of appearance mods, as I understand.

I'm assuming peeps that change her appearance to make her more attractive will not romance her with their PC otherwise.

Depends on the PC, some of mine like darker women/men, some of them like fairer women/men. Mostly I run with the redhead Isabela mod because it makes her and Fenris look like Geralt and Triss.

[wsandista]

Indoctrination wrote...

I don't have very many nice things to say about Mass Effect 3, but I one of the nice things I do have to say about it was the way gay/lesbian romances were handled in that game. The Traynor/Cortez romances were incredibly tasteful and well done.

The problem I have with "everyone is bisexual, so dig in and have your fill" is that it makes the characters feel like puppets. When the character seems to be effortlessly bending to your will it makes them feel less real. Part of normal interaction with other people is that other people are different from you and you can't always get what you want from them.

I have the same problem as well, but I think the fact that the LIs will never reject/break up with the PC over their actions makes them feel even more like puppets or sex toys.

Also, it doesn't leave room for homosexual LIs. I don't see how you can argue for inclusiveness then demand only bisexuals as LIs.

However All-bi is better than herosexual, because at least then the world doesn't warp to fit the PC.

Modifié par wsandista, 13 juin 2012 - 03:55 .

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...
?
Never said they were determined by PC actions, I've stated that herosexual LI's orientation are determined by a PC's gender. The gender is a player choice, not a PC choice. Did you misunderstand the pint I was making?
The point was that LI orientation had nothing to do with PC actions while hardening, softening, and making friends did have everything to do with PC actions.

Exactly. Their orientation has nothing to do with the player. Why do you keep insisting that it does? 

But like I said, the mod effects the game world indiscriminately of the PC. Herosexual does not do that, herosexual makes the LIs orientation dependent on the PC's gender. All bi cast does not do that and accomplishes the same goal. So all-bi LI cast does not change the world at all. Herosexual makes the PC warp reality, just like if a certain event happened in the game depending on the PCs class that had no PC input, like a certain relative dying if a mage or another dying if the PC isn't a mage.

And you break the game world because they're believing she's darker skinned when she's not. Purely on the player's whims. Yes YOU changed her. Just because no one reacts to it doesn't mean she's different. If your PC wouldn't romance her with her darker skin color reality was warped so your PC could romance her. It's just ignored. If you can modify a character for your romancing wishes why can't others? What makes you so much better than them? And before you say something like "Well I only change it in my game." you don't have to romance Fenris with a gendered Hawke if you don't want to. And since Fenris doesn't flirt first it'll be easy enough to see him as being straight. There you go.
Good thing I was supporting all bi LIs then and not herosexual then eh?  You can be a bi sexual LI and choose not to mention past relationships. That doesn't make you herosexual. Nor is Anders herosexual because he doesn't mention Karl. Plenty of bi people don't mention past s/s partners to a new partner of the o/s.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 04:18 .

[FaWa]

why can't characters be Gay in some playthroughts and straight in others?

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

snip

Honestly do you even read what I've been posting?

Herosexual, where the LI's orientation is determined by the PC, has EVERYTHING to do with the PC at creation.

I've never said I wouldn't romance Isabela just because of dark skin, only that I liked the fair look better. Look at the the "Fair Isabela" thread and tell me if you find where I've said that. She was the first LI I romanced in DA2(granted I only played through it twice, but I may play it again after I finish building my PC)and that was in the vanilla game.

I've never said I'm better than anyone, I've just argued against warping reality based on PC characteristics. I believe that the world should not be dependent on the PC at creation, the world should be static and respond to PC actions.

I have never said you have to mention past relationships because you are bi. I would argue they should share those past relationships if they are important to their backstory. When I romanced Zevran as a male Aeducan, I thought it added so much depth for him to tell Santiago about Rinna. The same thing with my straight PCs who romanced Leliana. Karl was important to Anders, and he should have been talked about more to both genders.

[Ryzaki]

You know what the word "if" means?

And have you even read this thread or the OP? If you're arguing against herosexual LIs that has little to do with all the LIs being bi. The two are not the same.

And all bi LIs has nothing to do with being herosexual. You keep mixing the two. They are not the same. To be honest I don't care which as long as the LIs are available for both genders. Though I prefer a mix if herosexual most be included.

Anders not talking about Karl to a female Hawke makes sense to his character. Anders is a secretive bastard. We don't even know his real name. With Male Hawke it's a gauging move to see how he reacts. What makes you think he'd tell Hawke anymore about himself than he wanted? Honestly think of how much Anders tells Hawke about himself and really think about it. I mean really think. Anders is giving Hawke nothing other than barebones.

How is it morphing them?!?

Did you write the characters? Do you know their sexualities at creation? Because if not you can't claim the character is morphing them. Merrill doesn't go ga ga for every single female in existence (or hell even one female that's not FemHawke) from being attracted to males just because FemHawke's a female. She's simply attracted to FemHawke. How do you know that's not simply due to FemHawke's actions (which are almost always the exact same actions male Hawke makes when Merrill falls in love with him). Oh wait you don't. You're just assuming that since the character doesn't proclaim his/her love for X gender in every game that romancing a PC of X gender means CLEARLY he/she has been bent to the player's whims just because the player is X gender. Can't possibly be the NPC finding the actions attractive regardless of gender naaaah. People finding only one person around them of a certain gender they prefer? That never happens. Nope. Impossible. Especially if they'd fall in love with these traits in someone of the o/s.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 05:14 .

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

You know what the word "if" means?

Yes

And have you even read this thread or the OP? If you're arguing against herosexual LIs that has SQUAT to do with all the LIs being bi. The two are not the same.

When have I ever said they are the same?

Anders not talking about Karl to a female Hawke makes sense to his character. Anders is a secretive bastard. We don't even know his real name. With Male Hawke it's a gauging move to see how he reacts. What makes you think he'd tell Hawke anymore about himself than he wanted?

Did you write the characters? Do you know their sexualities at creation?

The same way you know Anders is gauging male Hawkes reaction. I don't, I logically assume that is the case given the evidence. Not to mention word of god stating LIs are "Hawke-sexual".

Because if not you can't claim the character is morphing them. Merrill doesn't go ga ga for every single female in existence just because FemHawke's a female. She's simply attracted to FemHawke. How do you know that's not simply due to FemHawke's actions (which are almost always the exact same actions male Hawke makes when Merrill falls in love with him). Oh wait you don't.

Neither can you. you can't know if she is 'simply attracted to" either Hawke, let alone the cause of the attraction. yet you assume as much as I do.

You're just assuming that since the character doesn't proclaim his/her love for X gender in every game that romancing a PC of X gender means CLEARLY he/she has been bent to the player's whims just because the player is X gender. Can't possibly be the NPC finding the actions attractive regardless of gender naaaah.

Not players whims, PCs characteristics. If you're going to say I'm assuming something at least get what I'm assuming right.

[Ryzaki]

Fine PC Characteristics. You're assuming. Just like I am. So you can't say with any definite that the DA2 LIs are actually herosexual or changing orientation due to the PC's gender.

Therefore your argument to all herosexual LIs becomes completely unprovable. You can't prove it at all. And this back and forth is now officially pointless. You can't prove DA2's LIs are herosexual rather than bisexual and you most likely wouldn't be able to prove any other LIs are herosexual in the future either.

And actually what would be the cause of attraction then? It's clear Merrill will only romance Hawke if he/she takes certain actions. You can't just press a heart and romance Merrill you have to do certain quests, you have to have a certain level of respect/friendship and you have to say you love her (and I'm assuming before you sleep with her that you care about her). So...yeah what do you mean actions have nothing to do with it? The only way to romance her is by doing certain actions. You can't just be a X gender and romance Merrill.

Though yes sorry about using whims instead of characteristics.

As for WoG. Well I'm a firm believer in "AiD" or rather Death of the Author so...

Plus WoG actually said they were all bisexual.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[wsandista]

Ryzaki wrote...

Therefore your argument to all herosexual LIs becomes completely unprovable. You can't prove it at all. And this back and forth is now officially pointless. You can't prove DA2's LIs are herosexual rather than bisexual and you most likely wouldn't be able to prove any other LIs are herosexual in the future either.

It also isn't disprovable.

And actually what would be the cause of attraction then? It's clear Merrill will only romance Hawke if he/she takes certain actions. You can't just press a heart and romance Merrill you have to do certain quests, you have to have a certain level of respect/friendship and you have to say you love her (and I'm assuming before you sleep with her that you care about her). So...yeah what do you mean actions have nothing to do with it? The only way to romance her is by doing certain actions. You can't just be a X gender and romance Merrill.

You don't know that actions had anything to do with it. Does she fall in love with Hawke because of the actions or because she has spent x amount of time around Hawke?

Though yes sorry about using whims instead of characteristics.

Thank you.

Plus WoG actually said they were all bisexual.

I didn't see it in there......Perhaps my eyes have been glazed by the monitor, would you mind highlighting it please.
Not sarcasm BTW.

[Ryzaki]

wsandista wrote...

It also isn't disprovable.

Which makes it pointless. You're arguing something that you can't prove is occuring and saying it shouldn't ever occur by saying you shouldn't have it occur. Does that make any sense to you? Doesn't to me.

"The LIs shouldn't be herosexual." 

"Kay they aren't." 

"Yes they are."

"No they aren't." 

"Yes they are." 

"No they aren't for reasons x, y, z." 

"Yes they are for reasons 1, 2, 3."

"Well x,y,z doesn't contradict 1, 2, 3." 

"Prove it doesn't." 

"Prove it does."

"Well you prove it." 

"Nope you prove it."

Repeat

...it becomes a giant pointless circlejerk.

You don't know that actions had anything to do with it. Does she fall in love with Hawke because of the actions or because she has spent x amount of time around Hawke?

Yes I do. If you played Merrill's romance you'd know that too. You can drag Merrill with Hawke everywhere but if he/she doesn't do Merrill's personal quests and get his/her rivalry/friendship to a certain level you can't romance her. Your actions determine if she can be romanced. Not gender, not time spent around her (you can drag her around with you until act 3 but if you don't do those quests, get a certain amount of friendship or rivalry and pick certain dialogue choices. No Merrill romance for you!)

I didn't see it in there......Perhaps my eyes have been glazed by the monitor, would you mind highlighting it please.
Not sarcasm BTW.

It's the whole thing. It's a page full of Gaider quotes.

But here's the most relevant quotes

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely. So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

Another.

David Gaider wrote...

wyvvern wrote...
So I'm not seeing how it's a great leap or inference to deduce both Anders and Isabella at least are cannonically bi-sexual.

I'm not saying they could be anything-- there are a few instances (Anders and Isabela, primarily) when their past might come up. I'll point out that, with Anders, he doesn't say "I am attracted only to men" or "I am attracted to both men and women". You could decide one way or the other... perhaps if someone says a member of the opposite sex or same sex is attractive, that's enough for you? But they simply don't say where they preference lies. My point is that their actions don't change, yet some people are deciding that their inference is enough to suggest the characters alter their preferences at the player's whim.

Even if they did, I'm not sure that would be a crime. Regardless, it's not the case.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

The poster of this thread has the handle 'Backlash.'

[TJX2045]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The poster of this thread has the handle 'Backlash.'

LOL.

In reference to what I've seen in this thread after my last post, I feel like everyone against all-bi or herosexual are using random NON RELATED examples to try and prove why we shouldn't have the next LI system be the same.

Apparently, suddenly actions that happen during the game when you CHOOSE to romance an LI as one sex or the other define the character that was already established.

<_< = My "LOL wut?" face.

Modifié par TJX2045, 13 juin 2012 - 06:24 .