930 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

iakus wrote...
The Witcher and Deus ex also had fixed player characters, whom we had little control over.  I don't think anyone really wants that for Bioware games.  What's being argued is having fixed non-player charcters, who are consistent regardless of who the player chooses to be.

I Do I do !

Bioware are already there in everything but name anyway.Actually going that final step would improve the games dramatically allowing for much more focused and varied interactions.

I'm not suggesting the drop the female PC (since they are already budgeted for it) but there is no rule that says you can only have 1 fixed protagonist in a game.

While you had no control over who the character was in Deus Ex and Witcher 2. You had a lot more control over what they did than you did in DA2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[Cyne]

BobSmith101 wrote...

iakus wrote...
The Witcher and Deus ex also had fixed player characters, whom we had little control over.  I don't think anyone really wants that for Bioware games.  What's being argued is having fixed non-player charcters, who are consistent regardless of who the player chooses to be.

I Do I do !

Bioware are already there in everything but name anyway.Actually going that final step would improve the games dramatically allowing for much more focused and varied interactions.

I'm not suggesting the drop the female PC (since they are already budgeted for it) but there is no rule that says you can only have 1 fixed protagonist in a game.

While you had no control over who the character was in Deus Ex and Witcher 2. You had a lot more control over what they did than you did in DA2.

I do too, I think it would give them greater creative freedom in the story. RPGs with tons of PC choice are also cool, but when they lead to fewer choices in the story I'd rather they ditch them. Keep the female PC though

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...
I understand the attraction of fixed characters but personally I don't like them (so much so I've not bought the Witcher of Deus Ex).

I wouldn't mind playing a game with a romance that was more central to the plot, I'd certainly be willing to give up some choice for it as well. Although I think there should still be straight / gay options. I agree that Liara would have worked well in this role.

Unfortunately (as DG suggested earlier in the thread) this is such a personal issue that you are not going to ever please everyone. Equally unfortunately trying to please as many people as possible is likely to produce something that doesn't have as much depth as there could be.

You should pick up Deus Ex:HR since you can get it for less than a pizza now and give it a try. You will probably be suprised how little it really changes things.

BobSmith101 wrote...

iakus wrote...
The Witcher and Deus ex also had fixed player characters, whom we had little control over.  I don't think anyone really wants that for Bioware games.  What's being argued is having fixed non-player charcters, who are consistent regardless of who the player chooses to be.

I Do I do !

Bioware are already there in everything but name anyway.Actually going that final step would improve the games dramatically allowing for much more focused and varied interactions.

I'm not suggesting the drop the female PC (since they are already budgeted for it) but there is no rule that says you can only have 1 fixed protagonist in a game.

While you had no control over who the character was in Deus Ex and Witcher 2. You had a lot more control over what they did than you did in DA2.

So which is it Bob, it matters or it doesn't, because in back to back posts, you've said both.  It makes it really hard to figure out what you're trying to say when you say things that are directly opposed to each other.  The way DA: 2 stands right now, there are 2 fixed protagonists, just like in ME.  You are either mHawke, or fHawke, just like you are either mShepard or fShepard in ME.  From what I understand of ME1/2, since I've yet to finish 1, I've actually barely started it, recently, the only difference is exclusive LI's, and frankly, that's not all that different in the long run.

[mopotter]

BobSmith101 wrote...

iakus wrote...
The Witcher and Deus ex also had fixed player characters, whom we had little control over.  I don't think anyone really wants that for Bioware games.  What's being argued is having fixed non-player charcters, who are consistent regardless of who the player chooses to be.

I Do I do !

Bioware are already there in everything but name anyway.Actually going that final step would improve the games dramatically allowing for much more focused and varied interactions.

I'm not suggesting the drop the female PC (since they are already budgeted for it) but there is no rule that says you can only have 1 fixed protagonist in a game.

While you had no control over who the character was in Deus Ex and Witcher 2. You had a lot more control over what they did than you did in DA2.

NO, please to the maker, just no.   I want each of my characters to look like I want them to look, not clones of each other.   Having the ability to customize your character had nothing to do with the problems in DA2, which was still a fun game.

As far as the topic goes, I'd rather have 6 or even 8 complete romance options including some bi, some s/s some not.  Some who start out rather nuetral and can be swayed to my viewpoint, some who leave or try to kill me and some who aren't interested in me becuase of my sex, but can become a good friend.  I loved becoming Morrigan's friend and sister.  I love Cortez's character, would have enjoyed seeing him in ME1.

I will do any of the romances they give me if they are varied.  I don't have a reason to do this if all of them are going to want to hop in bed with my character no matter what.  

Modifié par mopotter, 14 juin 2012 - 11:34 .

[syllogi]

I haven't played Alpha Protocol, Deus Ex HR or the Witcher games because I can't play a female character, and the male protagonists of those games don't look compelling to me. If others enjoy those games, good for them, but they're not for me. I would never buy a Bioware RPG that went that route.

Getting back to the topic of bisexual or herosexual LIs, I really think some folks need to read up on the issue of bisexuality in real life, because we're getting close to the point in this endless debate once again where people basically state that people who claim to be bisexual are confused, and need to admit they're one thing or another, and/or bisexuals are faithless, fickle, and otherwise not as "real" as anyone who identifies as "fully" straight or gay.

So could we skip that part of the cycle, and just assume that a character who is "out" as bisexual is capable of having meaningful and deep heterosexual or homosexual relationships? That would be refreshing.

Modifié par syllogi, 14 juin 2012 - 11:56 .

[Urzon]

You know us human. We have to have a label for everything, and when a label doesn't fit a person; things get confusing and.... awkward. We don't know which group of people that person falls into, and it gets us angry because it makes up question said labels.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...
I understand the attraction of fixed characters but personally I don't like them (so much so I've not bought the Witcher of Deus Ex).

I wouldn't mind playing a game with a romance that was more central to the plot, I'd certainly be willing to give up some choice for it as well. Although I think there should still be straight / gay options. I agree that Liara would have worked well in this role.

Unfortunately (as DG suggested earlier in the thread) this is such a personal issue that you are not going to ever please everyone. Equally unfortunately trying to please as many people as possible is likely to produce something that doesn't have as much depth as there could be.

You should pick up Deus Ex:HR since you can get it for less than a pizza now and give it a try. You will probably be suprised how little it really changes things.

BobSmith101 wrote...

iakus wrote...
The Witcher and Deus ex also had fixed player characters, whom we had little control over.  I don't think anyone really wants that for Bioware games.  What's being argued is having fixed non-player charcters, who are consistent regardless of who the player chooses to be.

I Do I do !

Bioware are already there in everything but name anyway.Actually going that final step would improve the games dramatically allowing for much more focused and varied interactions.

I'm not suggesting the drop the female PC (since they are already budgeted for it) but there is no rule that says you can only have 1 fixed protagonist in a game.

While you had no control over who the character was in Deus Ex and Witcher 2. You had a lot more control over what they did than you did in DA2.

So which is it Bob, it matters or it doesn't, because in back to back posts, you've said both.  It makes it really hard to figure out what you're trying to say when you say things that are directly opposed to each other.  The way DA: 2 stands right now, there are 2 fixed protagonists, just like in ME.  You are either mHawke, or fHawke, just like you are either mShepard or fShepard in ME.  From what I understand of ME1/2, since I've yet to finish 1, I've actually barely started it, recently, the only difference is exclusive LI's, and frankly, that's not all that different in the long run.

 It makes little difference to how the game plays out in so far as choices go. You get the same choices in the Witcher2 (well more really) than you do in DA2. Regardless of what Hawke looks like or what you call him , it makes no difference in the game.

However DA2 does not allow a character to called out by first name, does not allow the characters appearence to be commented on and any number of other things which a fixed protagonist does.

In DA2 you have Hawke, who you can change the look of an give a first name. None of which the game cares about.
In Witcher2 you have Geralt who has names, titles, nicknames all related to who he is because the writers wrote him for the part.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 01:16 .

[FaWa]

If Bioware dropped femPCs I'd drop Bioware

[AkiKishi]

mopotter wrote...
NO, please to the maker, just no.   I want each of my characters to look like I want them to look, not clones of each other.   Having the ability to customize your character had nothing to do with the problems in DA2, which was still a fun game.

Actually it's key to many of the problems in DA2.

1. If you have a pre-set they have their own motives. You never get the "Well my character would never do that" which is perfectly valid if the character is supposed to be your own.
2. It allows people to comment on your appereance. Adam often get's compliments about his hardware. Geralt is the "White Wolf" which if you could change his hair colour would make little sense.
3. You can infer quite a bit from the relationship by how someone refers to you. Not really possible when everyone calls you by your last name or just a generic title.
4. By having everyone conversation applicable to the character it better focuses the lines on actual choice , not just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

Just to stay mildly on topic. It would also work better for the romances because you are working with a known factor, not a variable.

[syllogi]

So, just to clarify, the solution being proposed now to make people who don't like bisexual love interests happy is to force everyone to play a set protagonist, who would most likely be white, heterosexual, and male?

And how would this be better than more choice again?

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Actually it's key to many of the problems in DA2.

1. If you have a pre-set they have their own motives. You never get the "Well my character would never do that" which is perfectly valid if the character is supposed to be your own.
2. It allows people to comment on your appereance. Adam often get's compliments about his hardware. Geralt is the "White Wolf" which if you could change his hair colour would make little sense.
3. You can infer quite a bit from the relationship by how someone refers to you. Not really possible when everyone calls you by your last name or just a generic title.
4. By having everyone conversation applicable to the character it better focuses the lines on actual choice , not just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

Just to stay mildly on topic. It would also work better for the romances because you are working with a known factor, not a variable.

By that list, you may run into a situation where players might feel that their ability to role-play has been severely limited. 

I didn't find the references to Hawke by last name to be restrictive in any way. Hawke also had titles and nicknames, depending on who your PC was conversing with. Much could be gleaned about how the PC was perceived through dialogue and banter.

As far as a "known factor" with regard to romances, what you propose would be quite limiting. It seems that a good number of people who enjoy the romance arcs in Bioware games enjoy being able to have some choice in who they can romance (from the pool of characters established as LIs). How is denying the player the ability to create their PC to their liking something that would have solved the "problems" in DA2?

[hoorayforicecream]

syllogi wrote...

So, just to clarify, the solution being proposed now to make people who don't like bisexual love interests happy is to force everyone to play a set protagonist, who would most likely be white, heterosexual, and male?

And how would this be better than more choice again?

It wouldn't. The proposed solution would be better-defined writing as a result of removing the choice from the equation.

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Actually it's key to many of the problems in DA2.

1. If you have a pre-set they have their own motives. You never get the "Well my character would never do that" which is perfectly valid if the character is supposed to be your own.
2. It allows people to comment on your appereance. Adam often get's compliments about his hardware. Geralt is the "White Wolf" which if you could change his hair colour would make little sense.
3. You can infer quite a bit from the relationship by how someone refers to you. Not really possible when everyone calls you by your last name or just a generic title.
4. By having everyone conversation applicable to the character it better focuses the lines on actual choice , not just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

Just to stay mildly on topic. It would also work better for the romances because you are working with a known factor, not a variable.

By that list, you may run into a situation where players might feel that their ability to role-play has been severely limited. 

I didn't find the references to Hawke by last name to be restrictive in any way. Hawke also had titles and nicknames, depending on who your PC was conversing with. Much could be gleaned about how the PC was perceived through dialogue and banter.

As far as a "known factor" with regard to romances, what you propose would be quite limiting. It seems that a good number of people who enjoy the romance arcs in Bioware games enjoy being able to have some choice in who they can romance (from the pool of characters established as LIs). How is denying the player the ability to create their PC to their liking something that would have solved the "problems" in DA2?

If you mean roleplay as in pick what your character looks like and pick a first name that is never used , then yes it's limiting. If you mean roleplay as effect the world in a meaningful manner through the character, then it's not only not limiting, it's less limiting.

We had a bit of a joke on the ME boards as to why Shepard never meets his mother. It went something like. Shepard... I mean Commnader... heck what did I name you again ?

Not really suprising because it will limit things. That's intent, whether you agree with it or not. It will allow NPCs to have preferences based on what the character looks like, their background, family, or any other thing you choose to write since a pre-gen character is 100% pre-written into the story.

This probably needs it's own thread anyway so no more on the suject from me here.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[ElitePinecone]

syllogi wrote...
the point in this endless debate once again where people basically state that people who claim to be bisexual are confused, and need to admit they're one thing or another, and/or bisexuals are faithless, fickle, and otherwise not as "real" as anyone who identifies as "fully" straight or gay. 

So could we skip that part of the cycle, and just assume that a character who is "out" as bisexual is capable of having meaningful and deep heterosexual or homosexual relationships? That would be refreshing.

So much this.

[AkiKishi]

ElitePinecone wrote...

syllogi wrote...
the point in this endless debate once again where people basically state that people who claim to be bisexual are confused, and need to admit they're one thing or another, and/or bisexuals are faithless, fickle, and otherwise not as "real" as anyone who identifies as "fully" straight or gay. 

So could we skip that part of the cycle, and just assume that a character who is "out" as bisexual is capable of having meaningful and deep heterosexual or homosexual relationships? That would be refreshing.

So much this.

You do need an understanding partner in order to be a bisexual in a relationship.

In that sense you do need to "pick a team" I guess.

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

 It makes little difference to how the game plays out in so far as choices go. You get the same choices in the Witcher2 (well more really) than you do in DA2. Regardless of what Hawke looks like or what you call him , it makes no difference in the game.

However DA2 does not allow a character to called out by first name, does not allow the characters appearence to be commented on and any number of other things which a fixed protagonist does.

In DA2 you have Hawke, who you can change the look of an give a first name. None of which the game cares about.
In Witcher2 you have Geralt who has names, titles, nicknames all related to who he is because the writers wrote him for the part.

Not to be overly personal here, but don't you think, given your preference for a pregenerated character, that maybe this kind of game isn't to your tastes?  Scripts can be written, for example, to get the first name of a character, and to even use it, it's how it was done in NWN's, when it mattered, you can also get classes, races, subraces ad infintum, since all of this is laid out.  The problem is, you then have to apply this script to every single dialog/party banter/cut scene/random dialog, etc etc.  Serah, Hawke and Champion are used because you can simply put the word into the dialog, and you don't have to debug the scripts that go with it to insure that you're not getting random characters instead of a name.  Reading this, it seems like it was pretty easy, but as somebody that has actually had to debug 700 lines of code for one conversation that last 2 minutes in game, it's not resource friendly.  Multiply that times however many dialogs in the entire game, whether ambient/party banter/player initiated, and you start getting into why it's done the way it's done.  It's not hard to imagine the 10's of millions of lines of code that have to be debugged as it is.

Not to mention, although I'm going to, the possibility of an update breaking unrelated code, and thereby causing the whole debug to have to be run with any and every update to try to catch it before it's released, something that doesn't always happen.  I have seen, in NWN's, a totally unrelated bug fix break a door closing script.  Anyone that posts here that did any scripting in NWN's can probably tell their stories about the same kinds of things too.  It's no big deal if it's one conversation, but when it's 1,000 conversations, it starts running into more time than resources allow.

[AkiKishi]

robertthebard wrote...

Not to be overly personal here, but don't you think, given your preference for a pregenerated character, that maybe this kind of game isn't to your tastes?  Scripts can be written, for example, to get the first name of a character, and to even use it, it's how it was done in NWN's, when it mattered, you can also get classes, races, subraces ad infintum, since all of this is laid out.  The problem is, you then have to apply this script to every single dialog/party banter/cut scene/random dialog, etc etc.  Serah, Hawke and Champion are used because you can simply put the word into the dialog, and you don't have to debug the scripts that go with it to insure that you're not getting random characters instead of a name.  Reading this, it seems like it was pretty easy, but as somebody that has actually had to debug 700 lines of code for one conversation that last 2 minutes in game, it's not resource friendly.  Multiply that times however many dialogs in the entire game, whether ambient/party banter/player initiated, and you start getting into why it's done the way it's done.  It's not hard to imagine the 10's of millions of lines of code that have to be debugged as it is.

Not to mention, although I'm going to, the possibility of an update breaking unrelated code, and thereby causing the whole debug to have to be run with any and every update to try to catch it before it's released, something that doesn't always happen.  I have seen, in NWN's, a totally unrelated bug fix break a door closing script.  Anyone that posts here that did any scripting in NWN's can probably tell their stories about the same kinds of things too.  It's no big deal if it's one conversation, but when it's 1,000 conversations, it starts running into more time than resources allow.

It's only a preference in cinematic games.Likely because it makes for a better game if Deus Ex,Witcher2 and Alpha Protocol are anything to go by.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 03:26 .

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You do need an understanding partner in order to be a bisexual in a relationship.

In that sense you do need to "pick a team" I guess.

You need an understanding partner in any relationship, I would wager, if you want it to flourish. People come into relationships from different backgrounds, idealogies, faiths, etc. That's the trick of making something between two different people work.

Folks have varying comfort levels when it comes to their partner's past relationships, regardless of whether or not the person identifies as straight, gay or bi. Straight couples may not want to hear or know about the liaisons and lovers of each other's past - there's as much understanding needed there.

Perhaps this is your personal perspective on relationships, but in the grand scheme, love doesn't break down to a matter of "picking a team." 

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
You need an understanding partner in any relationship, I would wager, if you want it to flourish. People come into relationships from different backgrounds, idealogies, faiths, etc. That's the trick of making something between two different people work.

Folks have varying comfort levels when it comes to their partner's past relationships, regardless of whether or not the person identifies as straight, gay or bi. Straight couples may not want to hear or know about the liaisons and lovers of each other's past - there's as much understanding needed there.

Perhaps this is your personal perspective on relationships, but in the grand scheme, love doesn't break down to a matter of "picking a team." 

It's completely different if you want to stay bi-sexual while in a relationship. It's not past tense.

In DA2 terms you would have to share Merril with Isabella or vice versa. That makes it a very different kind of relationship than one that is either straight or gay.A bisexual relationship by definition can't be exclusive.

My personal perspective makes me an expert in this field but it does not really change anything.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 03:37 .

[PinkShoes]

Omg does it matter? Seriously i dont think sexual orientation should matter at all. Your sexual oritenation isnt who you are. All i wanna know about the characters i who they are not what gender they prefer to f__k

Modifié par PinkShoes, 14 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[syllogi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
You need an understanding partner in any relationship, I would wager, if you want it to flourish. People come into relationships from different backgrounds, idealogies, faiths, etc. That's the trick of making something between two different people work.

Folks have varying comfort levels when it comes to their partner's past relationships, regardless of whether or not the person identifies as straight, gay or bi. Straight couples may not want to hear or know about the liaisons and lovers of each other's past - there's as much understanding needed there.

Perhaps this is your personal perspective on relationships, but in the grand scheme, love doesn't break down to a matter of "picking a team." 

It's completely different if you want to stay bi-sexual while in a relationship. It's not past tense.

In DA2 terms you would have to share Merril with Isabella or vice versa. That makes it a very different kind of relationship than one that is either straight or gay. A bisexual relationship by definition can't be exclusive. 

My personal perspective makes me an expert in this field but it does not really change anything.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded part a bit more?  If a bisexual woman is in love with another woman, she is not in a bisexual relationship, she is in a homosexual relationship.  What do you mean by "bisexual relationship"?

I'm asking because it sounds like you're saying that people who identify as bisexual cannot be monogamous and/or faithful within a relationship.  Which gets back to that ugly stereotyping I was hoping we could skip.

[Iakus]

syllogi wrote...

So, just to clarify, the solution being proposed now to make people who don't like bisexual love interests happy is to force everyone to play a set protagonist, who would most likely be white, heterosexual, and male?

And how would this be better than more choice again?

I certainly wouldn't like it.

I want to be able to decide what kind of Shepard my Shepard is, what kind of Warden my Warden is, what kind of Hawke my Hawke is, and white kind of Spirit Monk my Spirit Monk is

What I do not want is the ability to determine what kind of Merrill she is, or Alistair, or Ashley, or Silk Fox.  Those are not my characters.

[David Gaider]

BobSmith101 wrote...
A bisexual relationship by definition can't be exclusive.

Just gotta say: wow.

I would normally try to ignore this discussion as much as possible, but the thing that aggravates me is the idea that some people bring to the discussion that anyone who is bisexual is inherently inconsistent and unable to commit (to a relationship or a preference), and that this colors their argument to the point where what they're arguing isn't really what they're arguing.

So seeing it stated outright could be either mind-boggling or refreshing. I can't decide.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

syllogi wrote...

So, just to clarify, the solution being proposed now to make people who don't like bisexual love interests happy is to force everyone to play a set protagonist, who would most likely be white, heterosexual, and male?

And how would this be better than more choice again?

I certainly wouldn't like it.

I want to be able to decide what kind of Shepard my Shepard is, what kind of Warden my Warden is, what kind of Hawke my Hawke is, and white kind of Spirit Monk my Spirit Monk is

What I do not want is the ability to determine what kind of Merrill she is, or Alistair, or Ashley, or Silk Fox.  Those are not my characters.

Good thing that's not what all bi LIs do now isn't it?