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Why Bioware Should Ditch "All Bi" Companions/Romances and How They Can Improve LGBT Standing in Other Ways


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#151
Firky

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David Gaider wrote...

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...
Just out of curiosity, are there ways to increase the content without significantly increasing the budget/time needed to implement?


There are ways, yes, though whether those are acceptable (either to the players or to us) are really the question-- and there's no way to make content cost nothing. All content comes with some kind of cost attached, particularly written content... anything we write must be recorded, translated, scripted, animated and tested. There's a lot of "trickle-down" cost.

The most obvious way would be to eliminate the need for animation (or cinematics) to touch all writing-- so a way for some conversations to be done ambiently. No zoom-in, no animations or facial expressions (so the same way party banter is currently done) but yet still allowing for the conversation wheel to be used (though how this would be done with the player still possessing movement capability is difficult to say). This requires changes to the engine, and it's hard to say whether players would be okay having some conversations be done like this.

It's difficult to eliminate more costs than that, however. In that respect we're a victim of our own quality bar-- any attempts to cut corners (even if they're things that other games regularly do) are much more evident in comparison to the rest of the game. In some places these are things that can be mollified by improvements to the engine as well. A lot of it comes back to the engine-- as always. :)


You've probably gone. :(

But I'm really curious to know if there's a formula or "best practice" for how much dialogue for each character created (given it being expensive, as you've outlined) could be considered "optional" or "extra." In Origins, for example, there was the hardened Alistair/Leliana thing. You could only experience one variation on their character, but it probably didn't amount to massive changes. (I'm thinking a character, like Merrill, who could be player-defined as either gay or straight, somehow, could be similar.) But, there must be other variations in DA2, like friend/rival. (Without toolset it's hard to be sure exactly how extensive the variation is.) I'm just interested to know if there is some magic number, like x% of a character's dialogue which might be considered "OK for the player to miss" if they're playing in a roughly expected manner. (It's probably informal?)

(Of course, on production costs, I'd be happy with the Infinity engine and a combination of voicing, like when Irenicus delivered scary lines scarily, but many other NPCs were just written, or a bit of both. I don't get why everything needs to be so expensive these days. To me, voicing etc doesn't add a lot. Well, not as much as an absolute glut of dialogue. But, not everyone thinks like that, obviously.)

And,

*DA2 spoilers in following example*


I wonder if this process could be offset in other ways. Like, more options = more testing. But do writers anticipate, and work around, potential problems? In Dragon Age 2, for example, I romanced Fenris but ended up (spoiler) at the end. I also "accidentally" romanced Merrill then broke it off. So, I ended in no romances. Varric then delivered his line about who the Champion (spoiler, spoiler) with and he said both "Merrill" and "Fenris" simultaneously. Whatever it was about that combination borked Varric. But, I don't need the game to tell me who I romanced and was no longer with. Could Varric have simply made a comment on true/false to any romance at that point? Or not mentioned it at all. (Probably people, not me, I don't care, might actually want their love interest recognised, though. I understand why Varric might have been specific, for that case. But, I'm interested to know if "avoiding bugs" is actually a consideration when writing.)

#152
BubbleDncr

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At this point, if Bioware has a limit of 4 romance able companions, based on on budgetary reasons (since 4 seemed to be the standard from Origins and DA2), this is my preference - give one romance option to each gender/sexual orientation. So, one straight male, one straight female, one gay male, one gay female.

Thus, it's fair to everyone, and more realistic than everyone being bi, or having characters' sexual orientation change based on the PC's gender - which to me, is the most frustrating thing.

To make things more fun, I would also suggest giving players the option to flirt with everyone in their party. The characters that are non-romance-able by your gender will all turn you down, and the ones who are romance-able will return your affections. Then there would be some fun in trying to figure out who actually is interested in you, as opposed to just automatically knowing who your available love interests are based on if flirt options show up.

#153
Fallstar

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A character's sexuality is a significant part of their personality, whether it influences your relationship with them or not. As such having romance options who are hetero/******/bi sexual rather than everyone being bi would be superior to me.

But I'm not too bothered about it, there are more important changes to make.

#154
David Gaider

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BubbleDncr wrote...
At this point, if Bioware has a limit of 4 romance able companions, based on on budgetary reasons (since 4 seemed to be the standard from Origins and DA2), this is my preference - give one romance option to each gender/sexual orientation. So, one straight male, one straight female, one gay male, one gay female.


Using 50% of the resources needed to create full romances for gay-only romances would not be very realistic, despite how fair that might appear to you. I'm afraid that if the demand was "50% or nothing" then the answer would be "nothing".

Thus, it's fair to everyone, and more realistic than everyone being bi, or having characters' sexual orientation change based on the PC's gender - which to me, is the most frustrating thing.


That really assumes that everyone agrees that "everyone is bi" is a concern, that everyone thinks it's unrealistic or that they consider realism to be an overriding priority. I don't think that's the case. There are reasons I wouldn't mind trying a spread of set sexualities in followers if I had the resources to do so, but assuaging subjective concerns over realism wouldn't really be one of them.

#155
Samzo77

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I don't think of Lelianna as bi because my Warden was a male. In my opinion (not worth much), I like Bioware's take, because it is more about characters falling in love, rather than being defined or limited by a sexual preference (again, in my eyes that's how it seems).
It also gives the player more control over the universe, and get the most out of the play through. I would've been so disappointed if I couldn't romance a specific character because she wasn't into dudes.

#156
rapscallioness

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Soooo, does BW regret ever starting with the romance stuff? Do you guys not like doing it anymore? (seriously wondering)

Do you get razzed by the other game devs in the industry? Get called the Harlequin game devs? Is it ruining your street cred in the industry? Are you not...hard...enough? (not seriously wondering)

uh, yeah, well personally I really enjoy the BW romances. It's one of the things that make BW games uniquely BW. I mean the first time I played a BW game, I was like ...wait...what? *gasp*...he's hitting on me.

I had never experienced anything like that in a game. Lmao. It was so surprising and refreshing...and fun.

We know it's not the point of the game, but it makes it that much more fun.

So, do whatever it is you need to do. Make them all bi if that's easiest. I don't know. I don't care.

I just hope it's done from a place of...enthusiasm within the devs. Cuz, it makes a difference. When the creators like what they're doing (even tho it's still work) as opposed to doing it begrudgingly.

#157
Nerdage

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DuskWarden wrote...

A character's sexuality is a significant part of their personality, whether it influences your relationship with them or not. As such having romance options who are hetero/******/bi sexual rather than everyone being bi would be superior to me.

I think that's part of my issue, I don't think orientation is part of their character, even if sexuality is. So sexuality may be an important part of (let's say) Isabela's character, but I don't think who she is would change if she weren't interested in men/women, I don't see that as any more telling about the kind of character she is than her dislike for mustard-coloured satin.
 I expect she'd still be incredibly forward with people she finds attractive,  she'd still have the same issues about commitment/dependency, so what's she gained/lost?

At least that's my take, I'm certainly no expert on character writing.

#158
Uzzy

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JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

Just out of curiosity, are there ways to increase the content without significantly increasing the budget/time needed to implement?


You know, it's weird how when Bioware was independent, it had the budget and time to work on a game for five years, yet now when Bioware is owned by EA, one of the biggest game companies in the world, and presumably has access to more budget and time then some small countries, everything's all 'We have to watch the budget!'

Just an amusing aside really.

#159
Vormaerin

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Ok, deep breath and respond.


This one is actually quite easily countered.  Its just plain wrong.

The fact that certain characters are herosexual does not impinge on the characterization of Isabella or Zevran at all.   The important fact about them is that they are very openly sexual, not that they are bisexual specifically.

Besides, herosexual does not mean bisexual.  Merrill is not bisexual.  She is hetero in some realities and lesbian in others.  There's no evidence she's ever bi.   Even if she is bi, she's still a shy, essentially monogamous girl in contrast to Isabella's brazen willingness to sleep with a wide range of people.

#160
brushyourteeth

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Since this topic has been discussed to death both here and in other places, I'd like to jump in real quick and say that while I technically fall in the "everyone being bi or exclusively interested in whatever the gender of the current protagonist is is weird" camp, it's never been anything like a dealbreaker to me - just something I felt could use improvement or a more creative solution (if there's one to be found).

While there are undeniably some people on these forums for whom this is a really big deal, a lot of us still feel that the romances so far have been done really well and don't find the current method to be some kind of insurmountable obstacle to their gameplay. It could be worth discussing, but not getting ugly with each other over. They are, after all, just fictional characters.

*backs silently away into the shadows*

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 07 juin 2012 - 01:17 .


#161
Vormaerin

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BubbleDncr wrote...
Thus, it's fair to everyone, and more realistic than everyone being bi, or having characters' sexual orientation change based on the PC's gender - which to me, is the most frustrating thing.

 


Not realistic for whom?  You do realize that hetero vs homosexual is a very modern construction based on the work of 19th century German psychologists?   There's no reason why people in Thedas need to think that way at all.

Obviously, everyone has sexual preferences, even if its as simple as red heads vs brunettes.   Many human cultures on Earth don't (or didn't) define their sexuality on the same straight/gay faultline we like do nowadays.    And when you consider a fantasy culture, influenced by all manner of things outside the realm of terrestrial cultures  (magic, elves, spirits, different foods, drugs, etc), its even less likely they'd have to think exactly like us.

Add in the fact that Zevran, Liara, Merrill, Fenris, and some others aren't even human, you have even less basis for determining what's "realistic" sexuality.

#162
Knight Commander

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I just don't want every single companion bi, 2 companions is just fine.

Modifié par Knight Commander, 07 juin 2012 - 01:27 .


#163
Knight Commander

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Knight Commander wrote...

I just don't want every single companion bi, I don't mind if there is like 1 or 2.



#164
Vormaerin

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Knight Commander wrote...

I just don't want every single companion bi, 2 companions is just fine.


Care to elaborate on why that makes a difference to you?

Why is Anders, Merrill, Fenris, and Isabella  "too much" bi compared to, say,  just Anders and Isabella?

#165
Iosev

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Uzzy wrote...

You know, it's weird how when Bioware was independent, it had the budget and time to work on a game for five years, yet now when Bioware is owned by EA, one of the biggest game companies in the world, and presumably has access to more budget and time then some small countries, everything's all 'We have to watch the budget!'

Just an amusing aside really.


From what I understand, game development costs have risen tremendously (especially in the past few years), so even though they may have more funding for development, it's likely offset by rising costs.

Modifié par arcelonious, 07 juin 2012 - 01:51 .


#166
Knight Commander

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Vormaerin wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

I just don't want every single companion bi, 2 companions is just fine.


Care to elaborate on why that makes a difference to you?

Why is Anders, Merrill, Fenris, and Isabella  "too much" bi compared to, say,  just Anders and Isabella?

As a male it is awkward to have guys hitting on me a few times and it is very unrealistic even in a fantasy game to have most of the companions bi.

#167
Firky

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arcelonious wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

You know, it's weird how when Bioware was independent, it had the budget and time to work on a game for five years, yet now when Bioware is owned by EA, one of the biggest game companies in the world, and presumably has access to more budget and time then some small countries, everything's all 'We have to watch the budget!'

Just an amusing aside really.


From what I understand, game development costs have risen tremendously (especially in the past few years), so even though they may have more funding for development, it's likely offset by rising costs.


I read Warren Spector say, recently, that he's worried about games being $200-300 million. I think that was in the context of pushing the potential of various platforms, like competitively, at the top end. I wasn't really into Kingdoms of Amalur, but it was a solid RPG and first game, and it had a lot of money invested in it and the studio still went under.

I wish I understood more about the money side of gaming.

Modifié par Firky, 07 juin 2012 - 01:56 .


#168
Iosev

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Firky wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

You know, it's weird how when Bioware was independent, it had the budget and time to work on a game for five years, yet now when Bioware is owned by EA, one of the biggest game companies in the world, and presumably has access to more budget and time then some small countries, everything's all 'We have to watch the budget!'

Just an amusing aside really.


From what I understand, game development costs have risen tremendously (especially in the past few years), so even though they may have more funding for development, it's likely offset by rising costs.


I read Warren Spector say, recently, that he's worried about games being $200-300 million. I think that was in the context of pushing the potential of various platforms, like competitively, at the top end. I wasn't really into Kingdoms of Amalur, but it was a solid RPG and first game, and it had a lot of money invested in it and the studio still went under.

I wish I understood more about the money side of gaming.


Yes, it's a shame to hear about developers like 38 Studios/Big Huge Games going under, shortly after releasing a game.

#169
Vormaerin

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Knight Commander wrote...

As a male it is awkward to have guys hitting on me a few times and it is very unrealistic even in a fantasy game to have most of the companions bi.


The awkwardness is something that could be addressed by changes in the romance dialogues. The devs have pretty limited amounts of time and dialogue to develop a romance in, which is why quite a few of them seem to sprint around the bases, whether straight or not.  The 'flirt' emote in DA2 was pretty handy for that.   Most characters don't hit on you if you haven't used it.   Of course, some don't hit on you even if you spam the heart icon at them.  :(

The second point is, I'm afraid, not true.  Its true in our culture.  Its far from true of human cultures in general, as I pointed out in an earlier post.

I could just as easily turn that specious argument on all manner of game elements.   What's realistic about a culture with lots of sword wielding women?  Can you actually name any "real" cultures in which women were accepted as warriors along side men in the pre gunpowder era?

There are a handful of cultures with warrior women, but they are special and distinct from the male warriors.

I can understand not liking something.  There's things about every game I don't like.  Sometimes with logical reasons and sometimes not.  But I think you should be careful about saying what's "realistic" about human culture, given the tremendous diversity it has even without exposure to non human cultures.

#170
rapscallioness

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So what is making the costs go up so much? Is it cross platforming? I really don't know. Graphics are better, but....I don't see where all the money's going.

Games are shorter, and generally not as "full". I know they spend a bucket load on marketing, but I don't even see that. I rarely see a vid game commercial on tv.

Idk what they're spending their money on? And hasn't BW been using the same engine all this time?

Somebody tell me what's going on here

#171
MKDAWUSS

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Or how about making romances DLC? Pay $5 for this character to like females and $5 for this character to like males...

Problem solved.

#172
Zubie

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rapscallioness wrote...

So what is making the costs go up so much? Is it cross platforming? I really don't know. Graphics are better, but....I don't see where all the money's going.

Games are shorter, and generally not as "full". I know they spend a bucket load on marketing, but I don't even see that. I rarely see a vid game commercial on tv.

Idk what they're spending their money on? And hasn't BW been using the same engine all this time?

Somebody tell me what's going on here


I would think a lot of it goes into voice acting, graphics and cinematics. Though I don't know much about that at all.

People only seem to care about visuals and voice acting these days. I think most of the stuff that costs so much damn money is mostly unnecessary. Of course this is the BSN so I better make sure I mention that this is only my opinion.

#173
wsandista

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Maybe every companion could be a potential LI. If there is only 6(although I'm hoping for 10), they could have 2 male exclusive, 2 female exclusive, and 2 available to both genders. Looks like it could work, and the number of people whining about not being able to romance character X might decrease.

Also, if companions are not all bi,please do not have the two bi LIs be rogues. For some reason that bugged me a bit in DAO.

#174
joshko

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wsandista wrote...

Maybe every companion could be a potential LI. If there is only 6(although I'm hoping for 10), they could have 2 male exclusive, 2 female exclusive, and 2 available to both genders. Looks like it could work, and the number of people whining about not being able to romance character X might decrease.

Also, if companions are not all bi,please do not have the two bi LIs be rogues. For some reason that bugged me a bit in DAO.


Quiet! Everyone knows bisexuals are roguish!

#175
robertthebard

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joshko wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Maybe every companion could be a potential LI. If there is only 6(although I'm hoping for 10), they could have 2 male exclusive, 2 female exclusive, and 2 available to both genders. Looks like it could work, and the number of people whining about not being able to romance character X might decrease.

Also, if companions are not all bi,please do not have the two bi LIs be rogues. For some reason that bugged me a bit in DAO.


Quiet! Everyone knows bisexuals are roguish!

Actually, it comes back more to that character depth thing, since they both had a specialization to teach the Warden, if approval was earned to do so.  Considering the story elements that both had, it makes perfect sense, since Assassin and Bard are rogue specialties in DA: O.