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[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

... how other games did it to their satisfaction...

... Talk about the things you know...

I think these two things fall under the same umbrella when talking about any aspect of the game, from romances to dialogue, loot systems to follower gear, and many other things.

In a couple of threads I've mentioned travel using similar themes, talking about my experiences in Neverwinter Nights, Guild Wars, and the use of random encounters found in such games as Final Fantasy and Pokemon.

Granted, I think some posts are worded as to suggest blatantly copying whatever system in some other game, which is a bit silly, given that people don't even seem to consider whether something would work well within a Dragon Age game. However, I do think such examples can be helpful, and as players they are the only things we have to compare to and site as our examples. I'll venture to say that only very creative players will be able to come up with something truly unique as a suggestion for a forum like this. It's also a way to say "I played it in such-and-such game so I know it's not impossible."

So I suppose that "other games" are "the things [we] know." Which now, for most of us here on the BSN, also includes DAO and DA2 ;D. I suppose my perfect game would have elements of both, but I like them both equally and for different reasons. I've been able to play DA2 so many more times simply because it's a much shorter game. I would happily trade half of my DA2 plays for the 20 more hours of content that DAO had.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 07 juin 2012 - 11:09 .

[Fredward]

Not everyone comes here to communicate with us-- it's rare they come here to communicate with each other. The forums tend to be a place where people with opinions come to declare those opinions at each other. Repeatedly. Usually in the same thread, and when disagreement is encountered it means more repetition is required. If an opinion has been repeated enough on the forums, even if it's by a relatively small array of people, this should constitute the majority having spoken and Consensus Achieved.

I chuckled at this. It's funny cuz it's true. It's also why I can't read more than three pages in any one thread, they rarely seem to go anywhere.

Bear in mind that I haven't read anything in this thread 'cept the original post and dev comments so my view might be one that has been put forward before, repeatedly. But the fact that everyone is bi has never really mattered to me. Probably because, in my mind, they aren't. When I was playing Hawke for example the world there was that Hawke's. So anything, including sexual orientations, where "contained" in that playthrough. Meaning if I was playing as a female Hawke, Anders was straight. That's it. After all you're not playing the game with the same person with the events in a endless loop, it's called a new game for a reason.

I wouldn't mind a few comments based on their sexuality for the specific playthrough though. Like for instance if Anders is straight he talks about women and their many assets and when he's gay he recalls a dark brooding hero with a long sword and when he's bi (since that shouldn't just fall away) he recalls a drunken orgy in a bathouse. Of course any of those would probably be offensive and stereotyping to someone... Oh well.

C'est la internet.

[Knight Commander]

Vormaerin wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

As a male it is awkward to have guys hitting on me a few times and it is very unrealistic even in a fantasy game to have most of the companions bi.

The awkwardness is something that could be addressed by changes in the romance dialogues. The devs have pretty limited amounts of time and dialogue to develop a romance in, which is why quite a few of them seem to sprint around the bases, whether straight or not.  The 'flirt' emote in DA2 was pretty handy for that.   Most characters don't hit on you if you haven't used it.   Of course, some don't hit on you even if you spam the heart icon at them. 

The second point is, I'm afraid, not true.  Its true in our culture.  Its far from true of human cultures in general, as I pointed out in an earlier post.

I could just as easily turn that specious argument on all manner of game elements.   What's realistic about a culture with lots of sword wielding women?  Can you actually name any "real" cultures in which women were accepted as warriors along side men in the pre gunpowder era?

There are a handful of cultures with warrior women, but they are special and distinct from the male warriors.

I can understand not liking something.  There's things about every game I don't like.  Sometimes with logical reasons and sometimes not.  But I think you should be careful about saying what's "realistic" about human culture, given the tremendous diversity it has even without exposure to non human cultures.

I gave Anders the heart broke dialogue and he still flirted idk if its a bug or what, the thing is I just don't feel you know "comfortable" with every companion being bi. Trust me I have nothing against bi people, it's just that this is a game with a lot of blood and fighting and then all of a sudden I get someone the same sex hitting on me. As I said before I don't have a problem with 1 or 2 there is no need to overdue it with every companion being a same sex love interest.

[Vormaerin]

Knight Commander wrote...

I gave Anders the heart broke dialogue and he still flirted idk if its a bug or what, the thing is I just don't feel you know "comfortable" with every companion being bi. Trust me I have nothing against bi people, it's just that this is a game with a lot of blood and fighting and then all of a sudden I get someone the same sex hitting on me. As I said before I don't have a problem with 1 or 2 there is no need to overdue it with every companion being a same sex love interest.

Well, anders isa needy basket case.   I don't see why only the women should suffer in his odious presence. 

If you want to talk realism, having all your romance options be in the party is pretty dubious.   The idea of my dwarf gangster being so awesome that Morrigan, Zevran, and Leilana are all potentially hawt for him is pretty out there.   The reality is that more of the characters should be like Varric and Avelline.

But the devs don't have the resources for that. So we get all coworker romances.

[Knight Commander]

   The reality is that more of the characters should be like Varric and Avelline.

But the devs don't have the resources for that. So we get all coworker romances.

[/quote]
YES! That is too true.

[Knight Commander]

[quote]Knight Commander wrote...

   The reality is that more of the characters should be like Varric and Avelline.

But the devs don't have the resources for that. So we get all coworker romances.

[/quote]
YES! That is too true.

Deleted the quote... Whoops.
[/quote]

[FaWa]

I see no reason to have less options...Why do people want less?

[Abispa]

FaWa wrote...

I see no reason to have less options...Why do people want other people to have less?

Fixed that for you.

The exclusive LI argument is also a trap. Over in the ME s/s thread we heard for over a year how the exclusive LIs would be more "realistic" and protect fragile "immersion," and when ME3 came out with exclusive gay LIs, threads started springing up complaining how "catering to the gays" deprived the ME team of precious resources needed to create better endings or more "quality time" with the huge cast of LIs from previous games.

Not all straight gamers are offended by DA2's hero-sexual LIs. I know I wasn't. And you don't have to be gay to play gay/bi characters. I know a lot of male gamers who play lesbian heroes, and female gamers who don't like playing female heroes yet still want to romance the male cast.

[Allan Schumacher]

Knight Commander wrote...

I gave Anders the heart broke dialogue and he still flirted idk if its a bug or what, the thing is I just don't feel you know "comfortable" with every companion being bi. Trust me I have nothing against bi people, it's just that this is a game with a lot of blood and fighting and then all of a sudden I get someone the same sex hitting on me. As I said before I don't have a problem with 1 or 2 there is no need to overdue it with every companion being a same sex love interest.

Was it actually a flirt?  What was the line, if you remember?

It can be a fine line between overt flirting and some type of "bromance" type of dialogue.

[Iakus]

Abispa wrote...

FaWa wrote...

I see no reason to have less options...Why do people want other people to have less?

Fixed that for you.

The exclusive LI argument is also a trap. Over in the ME s/s thread we heard for over a year how the exclusive LIs would be more "realistic" and protect fragile "immersion," and when ME3 came out with exclusive gay LIs, threads started springing up complaining how "catering to the gays" deprived the ME team of precious resources needed to create better endings or more "quality time" with the huge cast of LIs from previous games.

And these threads were started by the same people who wanted what you call "fragile immersion"? 

If everyone had the same number of LIs but some were exculsive to one orientation or the other, how do people end up with "less" options?  It's like saying not being able to play a dwarf in the dalish origin story is somehow unfair.

[Knight Commander]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Knight Commander wrote...

I gave Anders the heart broke dialogue and he still flirted idk if its a bug or what, the thing is I just don't feel you know "comfortable" with every companion being bi. Trust me I have nothing against bi people, it's just that this is a game with a lot of blood and fighting and then all of a sudden I get someone the same sex hitting on me. As I said before I don't have a problem with 1 or 2 there is no need to overdue it with every companion being a same sex love interest.

Was it actually a flirt?  What was the line, if you remember?

It can be a fine line between overt flirting and some type of "bromance" type of dialogue.

I can't really remember sorry but I know it was after act 1 and after I helped him with something there was a heart option to pick and a broken heart one in the middle. I'm pretty sure it was act 2 though could be wrong.

[Allan Schumacher]

Hmmm, that probably is a bug.

The intention was for cutting off the romance to prevent these sort of things from happening later in the game.  Whoops.

[Abispa]

iakus wrote...

If everyone had the same number of LIs but some were exculsive to one orientation or the other, how do people end up with "less" options?  It's like saying not being able to play a dwarf in the dalish origin story is somehow unfair.

Hero-sexual LIs give everyone the same number AND give you choice of LI. You can have your black-hearted witch or your good-two shoes knight. Reducing the number of LIs to a single choice per persuasion would limit the choices of a player who wants to create all straight or all gay characters. You don't have to role play a lesbian in order to romance Merrill or Isabela in the current system.

[TJX2045]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Honestly I would prefer if every character was bisexual.
Why, because I hate being limited by something as trivial as aesthetic gender.
I call it aesthetic gender because being a man/woman has no effect on gameplay.

[joshko]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hmmm, that probably is a bug.

The intention was for cutting off the romance to prevent these sort of things from happening later in the game.  Whoops.

[TJX2045]

Ok, this is how I feel on this issue.

1) DA2 went the route of having EVERYONE available to romance regardless of sex. People complained.

2) ME3 went the route of defining everyone's "orientation" and had straight, gay, bi. People complained and other people complained that they wanted the option to kick the gay/lesbian characters off the ship.  Others were pissed that they couldn't lesbian romance Ashley.

So I think Option 1 is better because then you don't get people ****ing about "I am pissed I can't romance A & B because they are gay" or "I'm pissed I can't romance Y & Z because they're straight."

All I've seen is people expecting the bi/gay characters to be campy and stereotypical or thinking they'll be stereotypical and finding it strange when someone of the same sex hits on them in a game with violence like this because it's "unmanly." It's mostly insecurity. And who said a gay character couldn't be masculine? Look at Cortez in ME3.

Funny thing is some people were so upset about Anders being bi in DA2 because "he was straight." If you want to go off of stereotypes, sure he flirted a lot with women in Awakening. BUT he also had a cat he named Ser Pounce-a-lot. That wasn't suddenly added in there in DA2. It was established.

And even if someone is attracted to just one sex at the time, it doesn't always mean that they're one or the other and they can never be bi.

As far as the all-bi thing goes, the romances still play out differently with the male or female hawke.  They still have lines where they say he or she instead of just saying Hawke.  A good example of how a bi romance worked well recently is Kaidan in ME3.  There are different lines and they work better without being completely similar.  Both male and female Shepard get unique experiences.

Modifié par TJX2045, 07 juin 2012 - 09:46 .

[Firky]

Technically, Anders may have been bi all along, but it wasn't relevant. Like a certain character in Harry Potter was gay. (I ain't spoiling that.) But, that Harry Potter character was simply gay the way the author envisioned. It really wasn't relevant to anything in the story. And readers had no idea.

I wonder if any of the early Bio-characters, like from BG2, were envisioned as gay/bi, but we just never knew. (I know there were a couple of mods.) If there were, I had no idea.

[TJX2045]

Firky wrote...

Technically, Anders may have been bi all along, but it wasn't relevant. 

I agree.  And since he wasn't romancable in DAO:A, you couldn't assume he was straight.  If a male Hawke flirts with him on the first option, he says in DA2 not many men speak so openly as he does, so you could assume that Anders doesn't flirt outright with another man in DAO:A because he may not want to be judged by people.  Of course not everyone is going to be ok with that so he may have avoided it until DA2 where he simply doesn't care.

Modifié par TJX2045, 07 juin 2012 - 10:15 .

[Iakus]

Abispa wrote...

Hero-sexual LIs give everyone the same number AND give you choice of LI. You can have your black-hearted witch or your good-two shoes knight. Reducing the number of LIs to a single choice per persuasion would limit the choices of a player who wants to create all straight or all gay characters. You don't have to role play a lesbian in order to romance Merrill or Isabela in the current system.

Never said one choice per.  In fact, the most optimal setup I've heard suggested would have a total of six LIs: 2 straight, 2 bi, two s/s.  Everyone gets a minimum of two choices that way.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hmmm, that probably is a bug.

The intention was for cutting off the romance to prevent these sort of things from happening later in the game.  Whoops.

I've gotten it too.  I believe it's some time during his personal mission in Act 2.  If I have a high friendship level with him I've gotten multiple "heartbreak" options during conversation with him.

Not that it's got much to do with this particular topic.  But unless you're a real jerk to Anders he's by far the clingiest of the potential LIs 

[Vormaerin]

iakus wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Hero-sexual LIs give everyone the same number AND give you choice of LI. You can have your black-hearted witch or your good-two shoes knight. Reducing the number of LIs to a single choice per persuasion would limit the choices of a player who wants to create all straight or all gay characters. You don't have to role play a lesbian in order to romance Merrill or Isabela in the current system.

Never said one choice per.  In fact, the most optimal setup I've heard suggested would have a total of six LIs: 2 straight, 2 bi, two s/s.  Everyone gets a minimum of two choices that way.

Its still less than six choices per person, which was the point of the original comment.

[TJX2045]

Vormaerin wrote...

iakus wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Hero-sexual LIs give everyone the same number AND give you choice of LI. You can have your black-hearted witch or your good-two shoes knight. Reducing the number of LIs to a single choice per persuasion would limit the choices of a player who wants to create all straight or all gay characters. You don't have to role play a lesbian in order to romance Merrill or Isabela in the current system.

Never said one choice per.  In fact, the most optimal setup I've heard suggested would have a total of six LIs: 2 straight, 2 bi, two s/s.  Everyone gets a minimum of two choices that way.

Its still less than six choices per person, which was the point of the original comment.

And you still get people complaining about not being able to romance who they want.  Both gay AND straight people.  Some people are still complaining that they couldn't straight romance Samatha or Cortez in ME3.

[Direwolf0294]

I find the number of people who feel concerned that someone of the same gender might flirt with them in game and that that's some how unrealistic to be a bit weird. I'd be curious how they'd react if someone of the same gender flirted with them in real life.

I actually really liked how Anders was the one to flirt with you first rather then the other way around. It's always felt a bit odd to me how the player's the one that always has to start the flirting. I mean, the player character's pretty awesome, why wouldn't people flirt with them? I'd really like to see it as a feature in DA3. In fact romances in general could benefit from being a little less one sided. Having a LI pay you a complement every now and then or be the one to say they love you first would be cool.

The only problem I had with Anders flirting first in DA2 was that there was no option to turn him down gently. There should have been a "sorry, I don't feel that way about you" option rather then just the angry faced Hawke screaming no option we got.

[Abispa]

Anders only flirts with you if you are really nice to him AFTER HE JUST LEAD APOSTATE HAWKE OR HIS/HER APOSTATE SISTER into an ambush where s/he is forced to kill a dozen or so Templars INSIDE THE CHANTRY. A "realistic" Hawke should be upset about that AND about the fact that Anders is an abomination. If I'm a lonely and isolated Anders and Hawke's reaction is "Gee, that's okay, and you're, like, the nicest abomination EVER," I would assume s/he must dig me, too.

[Abispa]

TJX2045 wrote...

And you still get people complaining about not being able to romance who they want.  Both gay AND straight people.  Some people are still complaining that they couldn't straight romance Samatha or Cortez in ME3.

Not to mention that the more time you devote to developing a large cast of exclusive LIs means a smaller role for each. As well written as Sam and Steve were (particularly Steve), I would have preferred sharing my favorite Ashley with lesbian Shepards or allowing my bro Garrus to be romanced by gay Shepards to allow Bioware to add more content to the established cast rather than trying shoe-horn new LIs into the last game.

But not every s/s supporter feels that way, as evident by Backlash's opening statement.