248 réponses à ce sujet

[Kunari801]

Cerberus was evil in ME1, and they almost got you killed (soul survivor background) by a Thresher Maw. They were a small sub-plot group then because they didn't have time to expand the Cerberus role in ME1.

[mango smoothie]

Cerberus was a wasted potential of having a great antagonist who wasn't evil just went against our ideals or plans. I feel Cerberus should have been an antagonist for part of the game, but then at some point you could work with the Illusive Man, destroy Cerberus, or replace TIM for someone else and get them to work with you.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 05 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[Village_Idiot]

KingZayd wrote...

Maybe, like the Salarians, TIM considers the Krogan to be too dangerous for the genophage to be cured?

I've heard this theory before, and it's possible. But considering Cerberus' main (if ultimately perverted) goal is to stop the Reapers too, it seems odd for them to divert resources to harrass the interests of a third party. Regardless of genophage ethics, the Krogan aren't actively hostile to Cerberus, though by attacking Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka they sure as hell give them a reason to be.

I just think if Cerberus wasn't acting in the Reaper's interests at this point in the plot, they'd realise there were greater things at stake than a Krogan resurgence. As catastrophic as that could be, it's nothing next to the Reapers.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 05 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[Tirranek]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

I think it would have been better if the human soldiers weren't so visibly huskified. It's hard to see them as anything other than straight up villains with the body horror.

Or alternatively, that every Cerberus soldier you gun down was potentially originally an innocent civilian, or even an ally.

It's a relection on TIM's extremism and how Cerberus is producing such capable troops, rather than "these guys are pig-ugly, hence you must kill them."

I think rather than Helgan'ing them like they dead, have some sort of ice cold 'target in sight' types that just sound incredibly good at what they do.

[GreenDragon37]

No. I always saw Cerberus as evil/morally gray since the first Mass Effect, and hated working for them in ME2. In ME1, they were just a secret fringe group, in ME2, they were blown into a secret underground organization. However, TIM was charasmatic and a good anti-villain, and Cerberus didn't feel too overblown.

In Mass Effect 3, TIM and Cerberus became stupid evil! Hell, for much of the game, Cerberus was a bigger threat than the Reapers! In less than 6 months, they have the power to match the galactic governments it seems. WTF, BioWrae? W...T...F?

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[LucasShark]

mango smoothie wrote...

No,I do feel though Cerberus should have been an antagonist for part of the game, but then at some point you could work with the Illusive Man, destroy Cerberus, or replace TIM for someone else and get them to work with you.

That could have been cool: install Miranda or Kelly Chambers or someone as the new Cerberus leader.

[LucasShark]

Tirranek wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Tirranek wrote...

I think it would have been better if the human soldiers weren't so visibly huskified. It's hard to see them as anything other than straight up villains with the body horror.

Or alternatively, that every Cerberus soldier you gun down was potentially originally an innocent civilian, or even an ally.

It's a relection on TIM's extremism and how Cerberus is producing such capable troops, rather than "these guys are pig-ugly, hence you must kill them."

I think rather than Helgan'ing them like they dead, have some sort of ice cold 'target in sight' types that just sound incredibly good at what they do.

Sort of like the SHIELD agents from the ultimate spiderman game from a few years ago.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm indifferent. On the one hand, it's a considerable development for their subplot throughout the trilogy. On the other hand, it somehow feels tackled on and not exactly planned out.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 05 juin 2012 - 08:28 .

[KingZayd]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Maybe, like the Salarians, TIM considers the Krogan to be too dangerous for the genophage to be cured?

I've heard this theory before, and it's possible. But considering Cerberus' main (if ultimately perverted) goal is to stop the Reapers too, it seems odd for them to divert resources to harrass the interests of a third party. Regardless of genophage ethics, the Krogan aren't actively hostile to Cerberus, though by attacking Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka they sure as hell give them a reason to be.

but they don't want to stop the reapers by destroying them. on the contrary, the plan is to study indoctrination and use their own weapons against them. they want to control the reapers, not destroy them. for this, they have no need of the Krogan.

[ohiocat110]

Cerberus falling victim to indoctrination actually makes sense. TIM is about the acquisition and use of power in the name of humanity. He keeps going further and further, the grey area eventually giving way to corruption. Sanctuary is the last straw, although you're left to wonder where the corruption ends and the indoctrination begins.

It may boil down to a cautionary tale about the corruption that too much power makes possible, but it works well from a storytelling perspective.

[Village_Idiot]

LucasShark wrote...

Tirranek wrote...


I think rather than Helgan'ing them like they dead, have some sort of ice cold 'target in sight' types that just sound incredibly good at what they do.

Sort of like the SHIELD agents from the ultimate spiderman game from a few years ago.

I felt the Cerberus troops do fit this archtype mostly, though that Centurion on Mars who yells "HOLY S*** IT'S SHEPARD" kind of broke the mold a bit. For the most part, their combat speak is pretty much all business.

[Greed1914]

I didn't have a problem with it overall. We already saw them doing bad things in ME1, and then that is only offset by doing occasional good works, which largely seemed to be secondary outcomes to actual goals. I mean, Miranda tried to justify the experiments in ME1 as just making ground soldiers for protection or something. It was pretty clear that Cerbeus's version of protection was going on the offensive. Plus, the organization was cell based so it's entirely possible for some people to be doing things that weren't bad at all and have no idea what the bigger picture was.

[GreenDragon37]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

If they were so evil they wouldn't have bought back Shepard.

Really, killing Shep and ressurecting him was pretty ridiculous in itself, but the reasons why Cerberus brought Sheprd back makes sense. It's a classic "enemy of my enemy" scenario. Because BioWare hit every galactic government with the idiot stick in ME2, they made Cerberus the only way Shepard could get things done. Really, my Shep (a Paragon) never liked Cerberus and tried never to defend their actions but one: they are the only people doing something about the Collectors.

In ME3... they're cartoonishly evil.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 juin 2012 - 08:34 .

[ArchDuck]

I am sure someone liked the direction Bioware took with Cerberus, but I didn't.

Call me crazy but I would have figured the 3rd act of the series would have focused more on the Reapers.

[moater boat]

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

It wasn't just a matter of them being "evil". Their motivations and methods changed completely. Whether or not you agreed with what Cerberus did, in ME and ME2, you could at least believe that THEY believed they were doing the right thing. In their eyes, they were the goodguys. In ME3 there is no way that they can justify, even to themselves, that they are a force for the betterment of mankind that does the dirty work other people are afraid to do. They were over the top villians with no motivation beyond hindering the protagonist.

[ArchDuck]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Really, killing Shep and ressurecting him was pretty ridiculous in itself, ...

I really like to pretend that didn't happen. It was a really stupid, immersion breaking, poorly thought out plot point that I always try to forget/ignore while playing.
In hindsight it was stage one of "Space Magic".

[GreenDragon37]

ArchDuck wrote...

I am sure someone liked the direction Bioware took with Cerberus, but I didn't.

Call me crazy but I would have figured the 3rd act of the series would have focused more on the Reapers.

Nope, not artistic enough. The third act of a trilogy focusing on the main enemy? Too video-gamey. Yeah, I went there. 

[Ageless Face]

ohiocat110 wrote...

Cerberus falling victim to indoctrination actually makes sense. TIM is about the acquisition and use of power in the name of humanity. He keeps going further and further, the grey area eventually giving way to corruption. Sanctuary is the last straw, although you're left to wonder where the corruption ends and the indoctrination begins.

It may boil down to a cautionary tale about the corruption that too much power makes possible, but it works well from a storytelling perspective.

Well, but there are two major problems to TIM being indoc:

First, It's been done before with Saren. It's just an imitation of him.

Secondly, It's really annoying for me to see that everybody should agree with Shepard. If they're not, then they are crazy or indoctrinated. In ME2 they've done TIM perfectly. Most will not agree to him. But it does not mean he is outright wrong in his ideals, even if you don't agree to them. Those are his opinion. But in ME3, it's not like that at all. It's outright saying TIM was simply crazy for thinking differently than Shepard. Or by thinking at all. 

It's getting boring to see those kinds of things. crazy evil guys are constently on the media. It's just taking the easy route with the antagonists.

[Village_Idiot]

ArchDuck wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Really, killing Shep and ressurecting him was pretty ridiculous in itself, ...

I really like to pretend that didn't happen. It was a really stupid, immersion breaking, poorly thought out plot point that I always try to forget/ignore while playing.
In hindsight it was stage one of "Space Magic".

In retrospect, Shepard's death served little purpose other than to set up his/her relationship with Cerberus in ME2. The way in which Shepard reacted to the fact he/she has effectively been resurrected was also pretty poorly handled in my opinion, though this was partially remedied in ME3 with dialogue on board Cronos.

It's a pity that conversation Shepard has with Ash regarding the afterlife was cut. It would have certainly helped things.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 05 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[Sparse]

The character assassination and whatever isn't really an issue - Cerberus were totally rogue in ME1 so it wasn't much of a switch to go back to being rogue. It was fairly obvious that the Illusive Man was playing Shepard in ME2 (that would be because it was well written) so I think having that come out was not a bad thing.

I didn't like that I had to mess around fighting Cerberus in a game that was billed as being about the Reaper invasion though. Also having two entirely different groups of antagonists destroyed the flow of the story - it's why there was no grand build up to an epic conclusion - and made the plot incredibly uneven, it must have been absolutely horrible to try and write it. If they were going to insist on Cerberus playing a role then they basically needed to be the first hurdle for Shepard to get past so the writers didn't end up wrestling with two totally different plots for most of the game.

I know that the theme of the entire trilogy was that messing around with the Reapers, trying to deal with them and whatever gets you indoctrinated, but they really didn't need to have the whole Cerberus arc in to do have that in ME3.

[chmarr]

i dont, the allience dident save you as it was cerberus, shepard should have stayed indipendant, think about it, a state of the art ship, a crew of people who are friends and allies and a LI.

and just think of all the stuff we already have

[GreenDragon37]

ArchDuck wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Really, killing Shep and ressurecting him was pretty ridiculous in itself, ...

I really like to pretend that didn't happen. It was a really stupid, immersion breaking, poorly thought out plot point that I always try to forget/ignore while playing.
In hindsight it was stage one of "Space Magic".

Yeah, I agree with you there. I try not to think about it, but it's just so ridiculous it's too hard not to! Shep's reaction to being dead and brought back: "Oh... ok, well I'm back now. Let's go shoot Collectors!" Shep... you died!  People don't normally come back from the dead. "Space Magic" indeed. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 juin 2012 - 08:48 .

[jaktuk]

I really do not are about the fact that they were evil but the way in which it was executed was poor in my opinion. During me3 they went from being a specialist terrorist group striking a few but very important targets to a complete faction waging open war against the rest of the galaxy. It would have been much more cool if towards the end TIM would have revealed their true intentions of controlling the reapers and ensuring humanitys dominance in the galaxy. Stabbing you in the back seems much more like their style than outright warfare.

[BigEvil]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Maybe, like the Salarians, TIM considers the Krogan to be too dangerous for the genophage to be cured?

I've heard this theory before, and it's possible. But considering Cerberus' main (if ultimately perverted) goal is to stop the Reapers too, it seems odd for them to divert resources to harrass the interests of a third party. Regardless of genophage ethics, the Krogan aren't actively hostile to Cerberus, though by attacking Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka they sure as hell give them a reason to be.

I just think if Cerberus wasn't acting in the Reaper's interests at this point in the plot, they'd realise there were greater things at stake than a Krogan resurgence. As catastrophic as that could be, it's nothing next to the Reapers.

I agree very much with what you're saying regarding Cerberus and the Genophage. Just throwing an idea out, but I'd have liked to see a rogue Salarian element in play during the Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka missions. Perhaps one of the STG regiments turning on their comrades, controlled by the Dalatrass.

[PlatonicWaffles]

In all honesty, yes.

But the fact they appeared everywhere doing stupid things irrelevant to their goals was completely... stupid.