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[Tirranek]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Tirranek wrote...


I think rather than Helgan'ing them like they dead, have some sort of ice cold 'target in sight' types that just sound incredibly good at what they do.

Sort of like the SHIELD agents from the ultimate spiderman game from a few years ago.

I felt the Cerberus troops do fit this archtype mostly, though that Centurion on Mars who yells "HOLY S*** IT'S SHEPARD" kind of broke the mold a bit. For the most part, their combat speak is pretty much all business.

I found them a little too shouty. I don't think their design is bad particularly, but I think I just have a fondness of 'no flair' types of special forces in games and movies

[Bad King]

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

If you take the reaper invasion into account, some of the stuff they did in ME1 was justified- extreme measures need to be ensured for humanity's continued survival. On top of that, some of the things you list aren't as bad as you made them out to be- the thorian creepers were mindless zombies: enslaving them is about as unethical as using animals in war. They were going to use the rachni for the right reasons- to fight reaper/geth forces, though they abandoned the rachni when they realised how smart they were. Killing Kahoku was harsh, but represents Cerberus's 'do whatever it takes' mentality as they were preparing to take on the reapers.

Now onto the ME2 stuff. Jack's loyalty mission was deliberately left ambiguous by BioWare- it's clear that the cell was hiding information from TIM, and TIM eventually ordered the project shut-down. It's never explicitly stated that TIM knew about the unethical experiments that were going on- it's up to the player to decide whether they thought that he did or didn't know. Project Overlord also went rogue, the extreme experiments being done were done behind TIM's back. And even if his methods were extreme, Gavin Archer had noble aims.

All the stuff about 'TIM was manipulating you all along LOL' was introduced in ME3, probably after Mac Walters read some of the theories floating around this forum. I'm not saying that TIM wasn't manipulative at all, but ME3 went too far when it basically stated that TIM was Emperor Palpatine pretending to be good (in reality he was a character with both a good and bad side- he was never fully good or fully evil in ME2). It also retcons certain people's attitudes toward Cerberus- for example Jacob who was distrustful of Cerberus in ME2 was suddenly saying things like "was I so blind?" Paragon Shepard was similar- he distrusted TIM and Cerberus throughout ME2 but then was suddenly saying in ME3 "OMG they didn't care about the colonists after all, I thought they were good :(".

Modifié par Bad King, 05 juin 2012 - 09:12 .

[Chromie]

Nope it's horrible.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Nefla wrote...

No, a good villian is one you hate but also identify/sympathize with. I think Loghain was a great villian in DA:O. Cerberus in ME3 is one dimentional and they no longer seem to have a goal beyond "thwart Shepard at every turn."

This, and after setting them up to /help/ Shepard in ME2, it really just didn't make sense. Look, they were evil sub-villains in Me1, and then Me2 gave them a sort of redemption... and then BioWare plunged them back down to evil cartoon villains, and TIM's whole personality changed.

Indoctrination is a REALLY weak argument for it too. Shepard was around Reaper tech before ME3 more than anyone else, and (unless IT is proven true by the EC) had a much higher chance of being indoctrinated than TIM ever did. If TIM had wanted to bring Shepard in to see why Shep's implants made him/her immune, that would've been plausible, but it doesn't explain the rest of the cartoon villainy there.

There was way too much focus on Cerberus as a villain. They should've been helping AND hurting Shepard's efforts simultaneously, in different venues of war against the Reapers. That would have kept them morally grey and kept the focus on the Reapers as villains.

TIM should've been like Loghain-- recruitable and redeemable.

[xsdob]

I liked it, it brought them back to their roots in ME1.

[GreenDragon37]

xsdob wrote...

I liked it, it brought them back to their roots in ME1.

Their "roots" in Mass Effect 1 didn't involve them being on-screen every-other mission and being almost a bigger threat than the Reapers. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 juin 2012 - 09:44 .

[Lonsecia]

For me, the biggest problem with Cerberus in ME3 (and to a degree in the second game) is that it felt too forced. It was as if they decided that we needed opposition to a straight-out fight with the Reapers, and Cerberus were the answer.
I personally would have preferred those trying to stop us, if not directly influenced by the Reapers, to be more like the Hanar with their beliefs in the enkindlers. There are plenty enough doomsday beliefs on Earth, and I can imagine there are plenty of them in almost any civilisation (any race that can think about mortality is likely to have a minority believe in fatalistic prophecies and other such 'inevitable' scenarios).
I'm not saying that I wanted a 'third faction', but rather it'd have made some sense to have it be a pre-existing mindset that leads to conflict, rather than 'oh good grief, TIM's gone off the deep end. Better go and prep the gurney, meds and the comfort room for his arrival.'
I also really disliked the pantomime villainy of appearing wherever we were at the same time to thwart us, with no closure on who was their spy. I think it would have been really interesting to find out that someone on the ship was reporting back to them and that's why they were always about to attack as we arrive.
It might've even made for an interesting side mission when trying to track them down. Admittedly it keeps things as they are, but at least we'd have had a rough idea why they are never actually ahead or behind us when trying to reach a goal.
It never felt like a proper race against time with them, as not only did we know from the off that failure would only mean we needed to reload (A system where our failure would lower our EMS, as suggested earlier would have added some threat), but also it felt like we were both running at the start of the pistol, not chasing one another.
I also can't work out why when they attack these places they don't just run in armed with bombs that'll go off as soon as activated. Most of the ground troops seem to be expendable, so why not have them land on a planet with various bombs and just take out various facilities in a more terrorist fashion. I guess it might be considered too much like real life, but when your goal is stated as 'control, whatever the costs', actively acting like terrorists would make sense. I can't see any reason why Sur'kesh would be left standing by Cerberus, nor really any other alien planet. They certainly don't care about the inhabitants, and seemingly want any research there destroyed.

My personal view is the same as some others: Cerberus should have been a DLC-based story-arc, rather than the main antagonist.

I'd hope with the EC they give us an ending where when Shepard fails to stop TIM, we see him go forwards and attempt his goal, rather than the standard 'critical mission failure'.

[xsdob]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I liked it, it brought them back to their roots in ME1.

Their "roots" in Mass Effect 1 didn't involve them being on-screen every-other mission and being almost a bigger threat than the Reapers. 

True, but it did involve them being powerful enough to smuggle thorian creepers and rachni to use in experiments and kill an admiral without reprocussion.

They were pretty damn powerful both in mass effect 1 and in the mass effect novels. It just seemed like they were being hidden in mass effect 2 and now in mass effect 3 we were seeing them at full strength.

Not to mention they were converting everyone who came to sanctuary into cerberus soliders, which explained their great numbers as well.

[Village_Idiot]

xsdob wrote...

They were pretty damn powerful both in mass effect 1 and in the mass effect novels. It just seemed like they were being hidden in mass effect 2 and now in mass effect 3 we were seeing them at full strength.

Not to mention they were converting everyone who came to sanctuary into cerberus soliders, which explained their great numbers as well.

I agree on these counts. What I find a bit hard to swallow is how they have an entire FLEET as well. One that can hold its own against the Alliance 5th fleet no less.

[The Spamming Troll]

cerberus > mass effect

[Ticonderoga117]

I still want to know where they got more ships and troops than the Alliance.
Whatever cause that probably caused them to go full retard.

I may not like Cerberus, but I could at least understand them in ME2. Suddenly in ME3 "We are teh Reaperz!!"

What the hell happened in those 6 months?

[Navasha]

What?

When did Cerberus become a noble institution? I seem to recall their horrific experiments all through ME1 and ME2. The direction of Cerberus has been the same throughout the entire series.

They employed heinous methods and vile experiments to pursue their goal of human dominance over the galaxy. That never changed at any point in the series.

[MegaSovereign]

Navasha wrote...

What?

When did Cerberus become a noble institution? I seem to recall their horrific experiments all through ME1 and ME2. The direction of Cerberus has been the same throughout the entire series.

They employed heinous methods and vile experiments to pursue their goal of human dominance over the galaxy. That never changed at any point in the series.

This

/thread

[Lord Stark]

How the hell does Cerberus have the resources to refuel and resupply a fleet of warships on par with the Fifth fleet to guard their headquarters, and have the firepower to challenge the Turian Sixth Fleet, during a galactic war when even galactic superpowers like the Turians and the Asari are struggling to refuel and resupply their armadas. **** the Alliance has to call on IOUs just to repair and resupply their fleets.

[Pelle6666]

I think they actually went back to the Cerberus that we knew from ME1 a bot. Sure, they have a more significant role in ME3 but they are back at being the creepy mad scientists and elite military group that they were before ME2. I think that is a good direction for them to go.

[xsdob]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

They were pretty damn powerful both in mass effect 1 and in the mass effect novels. It just seemed like they were being hidden in mass effect 2 and now in mass effect 3 we were seeing them at full strength.

Not to mention they were converting everyone who came to sanctuary into cerberus soliders, which explained their great numbers as well.

I agree on these counts. What I find a bit hard to swallow is how they have an entire FLEET as well. One that can hold its own against the Alliance 5th fleet no less.

Well , they had agents all throughout the alliance. Maybe when cerberus turned on the alliance the cerberus double agents did as well, taking entire ships, maybe even fleets with them.

Hell, they have a general working for them in mass effect invasion, and they're own fleet as well. Like I said earlier, they were powerful and choose not the use that power until now.

[Spitfire017]

I liked the idea of Cerberus being a small shadow organization of the Alliance, which dealt with assassination, back room politics and unmoral science, which used black ops teams for special operations.

ME3 actually changed that. The closest we got is Udina's coup, and even in that you see Cerberus launching an assault on the Citadel like they had Battalions at their command. It could have been done a lot better.

And don't get me started on how they treated TIM.

[Tain87]

Question does Cerberus not own a ship building company, if so that would give them access to shipyards, only explanation I can think of for the fleet size.

[Zeroth Angel]

Navasha wrote...

What?

When did Cerberus become a noble institution? I seem to recall their horrific experiments all through ME1 and ME2. The direction of Cerberus has been the same throughout the entire series.

They employed heinous methods and vile experiments to pursue their goal of human dominance over the galaxy. That never changed at any point in the series.

In ME1 and ME2 we could always somehow justify these actions. Hell Bioware had the potential to give Renegade players a faction to connect with in ME3 and to use Cerberus to give humans the ultimate power in the galaxy, just imagine a ME3 ending where humanity prevails over the reaper war stronger than any other race and than become a major empire .

But sadly Bioware gave us a game where choice mattered ****.

[Ticonderoga117]

Tain87 wrote...

Question does Cerberus not own a ship building company, if so that would give them access to shipyards, only explanation I can think of for the fleet size.

But in 6 months? They had a hard enough time with much smaller scale things. Like keeping bugs under control, or keeping an AI and human hybrid access to anything else tech. Yet they can suddenly make Rosie the Riveter seem like small fry and recruit more people to fight than the Alliance has to show for the entire game?

[MegaSovereign]

Wimbini wrote...

Navasha wrote...

What?

When did Cerberus become a noble institution? I seem to recall their horrific experiments all through ME1 and ME2. The direction of Cerberus has been the same throughout the entire series.

They employed heinous methods and vile experiments to pursue their goal of human dominance over the galaxy. That never changed at any point in the series.

In ME1 and ME2 we could always somehow justify these actions. Hell Bioware had the potential to give Renegade players a faction to connect with in ME3 and to use Cerberus to give humans the ultimate power in the galaxy, just imagine a ME3 ending where humanity prevails over the reaper war stronger than any other race and than become a major empire .

But sadly Bioware gave us a game where choice mattered ****.

Are you serious?

TIM was trying to control the reapers to secure human dominance. This fits his usual pro-human ideals.

And while you still have to fight Cerberus even if you are a renegade player, you still have the choice of controlling the Reapers at the end of the game...

[MegaSovereign]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Tain87 wrote...

Question does Cerberus not own a ship building company, if so that would give them access to shipyards, only explanation I can think of for the fleet size.

But in 6 months? They had a hard enough time with much smaller scale things. Like keeping bugs under control, or keeping an AI and human hybrid access to anything else tech. Yet they can suddenly make Rosie the Riveter seem like small fry and recruit more people to fight than the Alliance has to show for the entire game?

They were abducting people and indoctrinating them to their cause. 

[Village_Idiot]

Tain87 wrote...

Question does Cerberus not own a ship building company, if so that would give them access to shipyards, only explanation I can think of for the fleet size.

Cerberus has a lot of fronts that act to funnel money into the organisation, a ship-builder could potentially be one of them. This wouldn't however give them free rein to start building a load of cruisers- assuming the business is legitimate, construction of military vessels would be tightly regulated by the Alliance. The only benefits I can think of is clandestine ship production (by producing civilian class ships that can be illegally militarised at another Cerberus facility) or simply supplying Cerberus with ship-building materials and tech.

In any case, it's more a question of resources. Building a cruiser is of comparable budget to constructing the Normandy SR-2, and Miranda describes that as a "significant investment". Where is Cerberus getting its funding from?

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 05 juin 2012 - 10:31 .

[Ticonderoga117]

MegaSovereign wrote...
They were abducting people and indoctrinating them to their cause. 

Yeah, but when did they finally lock down thier control on the indoctrinated?
I'm still amazed it didn't bite them in the behind much earlier since there was never anything said about how one protects from indoctrination which I would think is the first step in actually using it for things like combat troops.