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[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

No. Cerberus was one the things wrong in ME3.

[Zeroth Angel]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Wimbini wrote...

Navasha wrote...

What?

When did Cerberus become a noble institution? I seem to recall their horrific experiments all through ME1 and ME2. The direction of Cerberus has been the same throughout the entire series.

They employed heinous methods and vile experiments to pursue their goal of human dominance over the galaxy. That never changed at any point in the series.

In ME1 and ME2 we could always somehow justify these actions. Hell Bioware had the potential to give Renegade players a faction to connect with in ME3 and to use Cerberus to give humans the ultimate power in the galaxy, just imagine a ME3 ending where humanity prevails over the reaper war stronger than any other race and than becoming a major empire .

But sadly Bioware gave us a game where choice mattered ****.

Are you serious?

TIM was trying to control the reapers to secure human dominance. This fits his usual pro-human ideals.

And while you still have to fight Cerberus even if you are a renegade player, you still have the choice of controlling the Reapers at the end of the game...

The only choice they gave us was to control the reapers....that is it..
They never asked me for what purpose?
Buy you know what? The endings are ****, so why even go there?

We were talking about cerberus in ME3. 
And i stated that i didn't like where they went with Cerberus. I don't care if it fits his ideals. Bioware had the chance to write an interesting faction with an even more interesting leader (don't even get me started on Kai Leng, the perfect example of wasted potential) but they decided to turn them in a one-dimensional enemy and considering that i can't stand one-dimensional enemies and the amount of cerberus content in the game ME3 ends up in one of my biggest dissapointemens ever storywise.

[Dean_the_Young]

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

I think the greatest condemnation of the ME3 handling of Cerberus is that there are so few threads talking about them. ME2 had hundreds-of-pages long threads about various parts of Cerberus, and it was clearly a successfully devisive group.

ME3, and barely a cricket.


Cerberus has never been terribly consistent, not least because ME1 never intended Cerberus to be significant.

In ME1, Cerberus was that group that was tied to bad things, but with amazingly little information about their reasons or even their actual involvement with a number of things they became blamed for. They weren't called terrorists, and their projects were war-sensible, but their actual actions were pretty passive for the most part. The Rachni were something everyone wanted control over, and Kohaku was a defensive measure. Shepard had to go out of the way to come into conflict with them. They were pretty bland, in part because of the total lack of elaboration they got.

In ME2 Cerberus was a competent ideology with a horrible presentation for alleged competence. The super-cabal/terrorists they were claimed to be never demonstrated terrorism, or particular competence. While their ideology was good, the execution of it wavered: it didn't help that ME2's writing went so much for shock-horror for bad things that Cerberus flaws went into comedic-villainy territory. Teltin was an absurd farce of stupid-evil for villainy's sake, and Project Overlord had that nonsensical torture device because just because.

ME3 Cerberus hit the nail in being technically proficient, giving the feel of a credible force, but became strategic imbecils. Fighting Cerberus was fun, challenging, and their moves were tactically appropriate: Mars is perhaps the best, with them sabotaging elevators and giving Shepard and crew repeated delays.

But the bigger-picture of Cerberus was completely moronic. Most of Cerberus's own actions served no apparent purpose in advancing their end-goal of controlling the Reapers, or any goal at all. Cerberus played an all-or-nothing gambit... but if they succeded in one thing (controlling the Reapers), they could have solved all those other goals as well. The Krogan Genophage is moot if the Reapers are controlled. Fighter bases on Noveria are trumped by Reapers. Etc. Everything they did that didn't advance the Reaper-control gambit only weakened them: if nothing else, because they isolated themselves and got everyone against them. Even though the key to controlling the Reapers can only be built by the people it's fighting. Cerberus's outright hostility towards the builders of the Crucible make no sense, given how a false-alliance and timely betrayal would have actually given them the means to control it.

More to the point, though, there's never really any reason for Cerberus (or TIM) to be indoctrinated at all. If you bothered to frame it carefully, there's virtually nothing that Cerberus was involved in in ME3 that couldn't have been justified by a non-indoctrinated actor. TIM doesn't need to be indoctrinated to be an opportunist: Cerberus was an opportunistic actor anyway. Nor does TIM need to be indoctrinated to seek his own advantage.

Heck, TIM doesn't need to be indoctrinated to come to blows with Shepard either. I should have some story corner ideas in the sig about how you could have that play.

[grey_wind]

Cerberus would have been infinitely more interesting as allies in ME3, where you can have them help you by doing dirty stuff no other government wants to get involved in. It would have also allowed Renegades to have a support system without turning every Shep into an Alliance fanboy.

[MisterJB]

I have mixed feelings. In one hand, moves like occupying Eden Prime are so terribly out of character and scream obvious villainy.
And then, on the other hand, we have Sanctuary that is horrifying and it is what cements in everyone's mind just how much Cerberus has fallen but, at the same time, it plays with very serious themes and it really seems like something the ME2 Cerberus would do. So, I'm not sure what I think about this descent into clear cut antagonists.

I do know what I think about the game trying to convince me all Black Ops go bad, however!

[BlackswordSteve]

Yeah, compared to ME2, it felt like ME3 didn't really give Cerberus justice.

[Kulthar Drax]

No, I felt that it was too much like character assassination and they should have kept Cerberus pretty much as it was in the second game, and left 90% of ME3 to focus on the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Creepter wrote...
I know that the plot gave a lazy explanation as to why they suddenly had roughly a billion foot soldiers but they became riddiculous when they had enough resources - ships, gear, logistics, food, manpower - to spread across over an entire galaxy to serve as mindless target practise when the plot didn't feel like throwing Reapers at us.

I felt the plot justified Cerberus' troop numbers- Sanctuary is effectively a factory capable of turning out fully trained soldiers at an alarming rate. Cerberus is also in control of Omega, as well as sourcing "recruits" from Benning and Eden Prime at various points in the plot. Cerberus forces are also never encountered in strength exceeding that of a strike force. They're not packing standing armies at any point.

However, I agree that their resources start to get a bit wacky towards the end. I mean, they have enough ships to hold 5th fleet at bay, even if only for a while- that's one hell of a force for a shadowy paramilitary group to be hiding.

You know what annoyed me about Cerberus 'recruits'? Why they had to impose it on anyone at all.

I mean, come on. You could be mostly honest about what goes on, and have volunteers lining up to join. Especially if they ever elaborated/lied about how much individuality troopers retain. Besides lying, of course.

But seriously, how much would you resist a sales pitch like this?

'Hey weak civilians, it's the end of days. The Reapers are coming, the Alliance can't stop them, and when they come they'll turn you to mindless husks. And you, you're too weak to defend yourself, and it would take too long for the Alliance to train you.

But there is another way. Join Cerberus, and we'll make a defender of Humanity out of you in a matter of days, with little effort on your part. Using the same sort of implants and technology we used to bring Commander Shepard back from the dead, we can make even you into a special-forces level soldier. You'll be as fit as the best, shoot with the best, and with Cerberus-provided custom equipment you'll fight with the best against the Reapers.

Join today, and see why not a single recruit has abandoned the cause of Humanity. Testimonies of previous recruits and current Heroes of Humanity can be found at The Glowing Implants Are Totally Worth It.com.'


Even if/when Shepard exposes the indoctrination aspect, you'd still have plenty of potential recruits on worlds who are falling to the Reapers, especially if Cerberus sends even just token forces to defend them. People who will go 'partial indcotrination to Cerberus in the defense of Humanity is better than to the Reapers who will kill/indoctrinate me regardless.'

[paul165]

No it was lazy and making them into this massive army made no sense - where did they get the ships? why does indoctrination suddenly train you in how to be a soldier? or fly a ship? how can no-one have noticed etc...etc...

And last but not least why am I spending all this time fighting Cerberus when in theory we are at war with the Reapers?

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

No.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Tirranek wrote...


I think rather than Helgan'ing them like they dead, have some sort of ice cold 'target in sight' types that just sound incredibly good at what they do.

Sort of like the SHIELD agents from the ultimate spiderman game from a few years ago.

I felt the Cerberus troops do fit this archtype mostly, though that Centurion on Mars who yells "HOLY S*** IT'S SHEPARD" kind of broke the mold a bit. For the most part, their combat speak is pretty much all business.

The fact that you get occassional glimpses of humanity/individuality in them is one of the most under-explored parts of the game.

Like at Surkesh, when the Varen kills one trooper and another shouts 'get off of him!' What was their attachment? Friends? Lovers? Was it something that is a result of indoctrination, or personal experience? How much of what they were before exists, and how much of what they are now exists independent of indoctrination?

Personally, I'd find it fascinating if Cerberus troops were 'remade', but were in most ways still individuals after their implantation. That the indoctrination creates an archetype that they then feel: people who will do the mission regardless, but can express doubts afterwards (like the Citadel Coup, and the two discussing the mole they killed). The thought of betrayal may be literally impossible, but they could be minds that operate freely within restrictions.

Sort of like EDI's schackled AI.

[CSI_Spectre]

I think Cerberus could have been handled much better. They were never an organization that did these evil things without a good reason.

I may be one of the few, but I actually liked Shepard working with TIM. My shepard was more renegade and didn't like the council so much from ME1. Therefore, teaming up with Cerberus was more of a renegade theme that was very welcoming to my playthrough. The Illusive Man was one of the most interesting characters in games. While he was one of the few people actually doing something to stop the Collectors in ME2, his methods were somewhat shady.

For example, when you board one of the ships and find out it was a trap and Collectors were coming, it would appear the Illusive Man set you up. However, boarding the ship was necessary to gain access through the Omega 4 relay. Without that access, you don't get to the Collector base. Shady, but understandable and necessary. The goal was the same, but the approach was different.

They should have made TIM and Cerberus more dimensional than what they were in ME3. I feel like there were better options on what to do with them in ME3; especially if you saved/destroyed the Collectors Base. A decision that seemed to not matter very much in ME3.

If you saved it, maybe TIM would help assist you in the game somehow with new weapons and maybe a new squadmate? If you destroyed it, maybe Cerberus wants Shepard to pay for destroying it? I know they may not be the best ideas, but Cerberus should be more than just one dimensional which they were in ME3.

[djspectre]

I don't think that Cerberus should have been a main advisary for the entire game. The whole point of the game was fighting the reapers. Cerberus should have only been a single mission arc of like 2-3 missions, culminating in killing TIM, before turning back to the real threat which was the reapers.

[Ticonderoga117]

djspectre wrote...

I don't think that Cerberus should have been a main advisary for the entire game. The whole point of the game was fighting the reapers. Cerberus should have only been a single mission arc of like 2-3 missions, culminating in killing TIM, before turning back to the real threat which was the reapers.

Or more spread out missions. Like they do something at point A and you deal with them, fight more Reapers, then at point E have to face them again.

Like what a shadow organization would actually do trying to achieve a goal instead of somehow summoning an entire fleet and war material from hammerspace.

[xsdob]

CSI_Spectre wrote...

I think Cerberus could have been handled much better. They were never an organization that did these evil things without a good reason.

Admiral Kahoku and Akuze.

[FlamingBoy]

Cerberus motives did not make sense beyond the convenience of Cerberus being indoctrinated, the reapers for some reason took a back seat throughout the game

[Lord_Frostwind]

I did find it slightly annoying that the Black Ops group I went out of my way to help in ME2 gives me the cold shoulder in ME3. During the first conversation with TIM where I mentioned "Hey, I gave you the Collector Base, have a little faith." and got rejected, I pretty much went "What the Hell?"

In all honesty, I would have preferred Cerberus to be something that moved around much more in the background. Granted, they can still have a massive army of Indoctrinated foot soldiers, but for heaven's sake, why would a secret group go plastering it's logo on every square inch of the armor? Plus, TIM would have needed the Crucible to control the Reapers, and I'm pretty sure there is no way Cerberus could have constructed a superweapon that took the entire galaxy to build. They were mighty busy shooting themselves in foot with a damn missile launcher. Same deal with the Krogan, unless the Daletrass cut some secret deal with Cerberus to commit forces for Earth if they killed off Eve.

Story wise, I don't like what happened to Cerberus. Gameplay wise, I get a lot more fun fighting Cerberus troops than the melee doom of Reaper minions.

Modifié par Lord_Frostwind, 06 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Mann42]

It just felt like they turned Cerberus back into the cartoon villains they were in the first game. Mass Effect 2 presented Cerberus as somewhat morally grey, but it was a dark, blood stained grey. TIM lied constantly throughout ME2, and most of the time his lies put Shepard in real danger without the benefit of preparation. 

Sure, I would have loved to have seen Cerberus act as more than Reaper Puppets/Re-usable Enemy Set, but based on all available information in the first two games, TIM and Cerberus' behavior in Mass Effect 3 was entirely in character. 

Modifié par nexworks, 06 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[Obadiah]

I agree with most of the Cerberus criticism in this thread.

In addition, I thought they were just too powerful. In the first game they were a rogue Black Ops group. In ME2 they were a radical terrorist organization that gained sympathy because they were acting while the Council and the Alliance sat on their hands (and used Shepard for window dressing). In ME3, suddenly they were everywhere - almost as powerful as the a threat as the Reapers. I mean... WTF??? Where was all that support (and armor and weapons and heavy mechs) when Shep was going after the Collectors?

It shocking enough in ME2 that they could reconstruct a better version of a classified cutting edge Alliance/Turian ship, but their power in ME3 was just ridiculous. How exactly do they muster the logistics to lay siege to the Citadel? That thing is as a big as a small state - maybe bigger!!

[Lookout1390]

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

[o Ventus]

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

For what happened in ME1, clear, reasonable logic was given for an explanation as to why they did it.

Then Teltin and Overlord went and shook the pro-human vibe.

ME3 wen't and bombarded the pro-human outlook from orbit.

[Unschuld]

Cerberus was "comic-book-villainy" since ME1, and changed to "morally grey" (according to TIM) in ME2. ME3 went back closer to the original Cerberus. I didn't see much of a change, since I consider ME2 TIM to be lying through his teeth the whole time.

Would it have been more interesting if Cerberus was originally a morally grey organization with questionable morals and continued on that path? Hell yes, but that's not how they were established.

[AxeloftheKey]

I wouldn't say that I loved their direction, but I thought they made for fitting antagonists. I liked that someone besides the Reapers and the Geth were my enemy, and in a logical way. There's no reason to be fighting Mercenaries and stuff like in ME2, we needed good enemies. I expected Cerberus to work against us since ME2, and honestly, Cerberus had two of the greatest moments in ME3 for me.
1. Invasion of the Citadel. This mission took me by surprise, through me for a loop, kept me guessing about who was betraying who for the entirety of the mission, and ended well. Probably one of the highlights of the game for me.
2. Conversation with TIM at the end of the game. So good, best ending confrontation. Not a fight, but you clashing minds with someone. Great moments.

So, yeah. I liked what they did with Cerberus, I don't think they played them out of character, I think TIM has clearly been moving in this path for a while. He always seemed interested in using Reaper technology against them, and it makes sense to me that he'd want to control them, and would work against everyone else.

[spirosz]

@Dean

Didn't the Illusive Man get hit by a Reaper device in one of the comics, which could be a factor to becoming indoctrinated?

[EnvyTB075]

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.